805 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

1453 R, on 21 July 2025 - 07:54 AM, said:

"Clan Smoke Jaguar led the rest of the Clans around by the nose and orchestrated events such that a stalemate they found odious was broken and they were allowed to ravage the Inner Sphere freely" is both an accurate summation of what occurred and the reason why Clan Smoke Jaguar was responsible for the final decision to invade.

Might the Clans have never invaded at all had Leo Showers not been a buttmonkey? Possibly. Might the stalemate have broken in favor of invasion in another way, later? Also possibly. We will never know. Events as they happened, however, make it quite clear that leo Showers' duplicity was what finally sparked Operation REVIVAL, and that means the Invasion is his personal fault. And as he was acting as the head and voice of Clan Smoke Jaguar at the time and using the Clans' resources as his own to pursue a goal the majority of his Clan shared, his Clan gets to share his culpability.

There is a clear cause and effect here and evade as you might, it won't work because the source material will keep smacking you in the face. You can think up all the possibilities you want until the end of time but the point stands as laid out. Leo Showers was NOT the ilKhan at this time, he could not have ordered a Clan to do ANYTHING. The timeline is as follows:

The Crusaders gain enough traction to bring up the invasion in 2980. It was voted down. 20 years later it was brought up again and once again it was UNSUCCESSFUL but they push the issue enough that the Wardens get them to compromise with the Dragoons in 3000. The Dragoons stop relaying info around 3019. The deadlock STANDS. There is NO impetus to drive a go-vote for invasion. The clear cause of the Outbound Light showing up has the effect that the Clans believe more IS ships could show up and discover the Clan Homeworlds. Now why would this be a problem if they thought the IS would be all friendly and nice and just want to trade and co-exist peacefully?

EVEN the Wardens Clans, except Wolf, decided invasion made sense at that point and AGAIN this ONLY happened because the motion (the vote) was put back on the table because of the Outbound Light. That's all it did. Just get them talking about it again. Each Clan made their own decision with new information and only ONE decided not to invade.

1453 R, on 21 July 2025 - 07:54 AM, said:

You can try and deflect onto the Grand Council all you like, but it really doesn't work that way.

I don't have to try and do ANYTHING because the source material stands. The Clans adhere to policies, procedures and protocols. EVERYTHING has a process. No Clan could just make a decision to invade on its own and even if it DID, they wouldn't be able to execute it because the other Clans would press them. Even when a new ilKhan WAS selected to resume the invasion, they got tied up in *drumroll* policies, procedures and protocols. I'd be happy to quote from the source material about that if you like. Again if you say x, then I say y and we check the source material and it says y, it means you are wrong.

Have a nice day.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 21 July 2025 - 08:51 AM.

[KursedVixen]

1453 R, on 21 July 2025 - 08:45 AM, said:

It is such a bizarre stance to take, this idea that "The Grand Council voted to invade therefore the invasion isn't the Clans' fault, nor is CSJ any more responsible than anyone else even though the only reason the vote happened at all and the only reason it won by a landslide was because Clan Smoke jaguar's Khan lied his teats off about everything involved and orchestrated the whole thing."

Like...do you guys not believe Leo Showers suppressed the Outbound Light incident, then used selective reporting to terrify the rest of the Homeworld Clans into invading to his tune? Because that's what the "Source Material" says happened. What 'Source Material' are you referencing where these events that clearly and documentably happened did not actually happen?

i've said multiple times that Leo twisted the truth... Also what faction is the grand council of?

it's sucha bizzarre stance to take that despite quoting source material, that we ever said Leo did not twist the truth to his own ends.... Do you also lack reading comprehension?

Edited by KursedVixen, 21 July 2025 - 09:01 AM.

[1453 R]

Jaroth Corbett, on 21 July 2025 - 08:50 AM, said:

...
Again if you say x, then I say y and we check the source material and it says y, it means you are wrong.

Except what if - and here's a stretch - the source material actually says X. Per Sarna, which is as close to The Source Material as most of us are gonna get:

"[color=#000000]The proverbial straw came in September [/color]3048[color=#000000] when [/color]Outbound Light[color=#000000], a [/color]ComStar[color=#000000] exploration ship, appeared suddenly over the Smoke Jaguar homeworld of [/color]Huntress[color=#000000]. The ship was seized by the Smoke Jaguars, its crew interrogated and databanks sifted through, but Khan [/color]Leo Showers[color=#000000] did not immediately bring the incident to the other Clans' attention. He waited until November to alert the Grand Council to what had taken place, presenting the information gained in such a way as to make several points: the Federated Commonwealth was growing in power and threatened to restore the Star League under their rule; the discovery of the [/color]Helm Memory Core[color=#000000] and other Star League artifacts was helping the Inner Sphere to recover its lostech and erode one of the Clans' major advantages; and most distressingly, that ComStar was close to discovering the location of the Clan Homeworlds, leaving the Clans open to invasion.[/color][color=#000000][4][/color][color=#000000][5][/color]
The thought of a reverse invasion by the Inner Sphere was unthinkable and horrifying to the Clan Khans, and the vote to invade was passed by all but Clan Wolf. "

Khan Leo Showers, of Clan Smoke Jaguar. One of the two foremost Crusader Clans at the time, who had the option of impartially informing the Council of events that had transpired vis-a-vis the Outbound Light, but instead chose deception and political chicanery to engineer the outcome he desired.

This is not open to interpretation, fren. This is a matter of public record, just as Ulric's own subsequent political chicanery to mire the Invasion and sabotage the Crusader cause is. Leo pushed for, and got, Operation REVIVAL, and received a Shilone aerospace fighter to the mouth as his just desserts. Ulric Kerenksy spent the Invasion A.) flexing on the other three Invading Clans and outperforming them by leaps and bounds because he blurdy well could and to disrupt their own operational tempo and render the entire Invasion less stable, and B.) sabotaging the Clans' efforts to successfully race to Terra with the assistance of Anastasius Focht, and he was eventually disgraced and assassinated for his unClanlike efforts.

So don't "have a nice day smiley-face-emoji" me.

[KursedVixen]

1453 R, on 21 July 2025 - 09:02 AM, said:

Except what if - and here's a stretch - the source material actually says X. Per Sarna, which is as close to The Source Material as most of us are gonna get:

"[color=#000000]The proverbial straw came in September [/color]3048[color=#000000] when [/color]Outbound Light[color=#000000], a [/color]ComStar[color=#000000] exploration ship, appeared suddenly over the Smoke Jaguar homeworld of [/color]Huntress[color=#000000]. The ship was seized by the Smoke Jaguars, its crew interrogated and databanks sifted through, but Khan [/color]Leo Showers[color=#000000] did not immediately bring the incident to the other Clans' attention. He waited until November to alert the Grand Council to what had taken place, presenting the information gained in such a way as to make several points: the Federated Commonwealth was growing in power and threatened to restore the Star League under their rule; the discovery of the [/color]Helm Memory Core[color=#000000] and other Star League artifacts was helping the Inner Sphere to recover its lostech and erode one of the Clans' major advantages; and most distressingly, that ComStar was close to discovering the location of the Clan Homeworlds, leaving the Clans open to invasion.[/color][color=#000000][4][/color][color=#000000][5][/color]
The thought of a reverse invasion by the Inner Sphere was unthinkable and horrifying to the Clan Khans, and the vote to invade was passed by all but Clan Wolf. "

Khan Leo Showers, of Clan Smoke Jaguar. One of the two foremost Crusader Clans at the time, who had the option of impartially informing the Council of events that had transpired vis-a-vis the Outbound Light, but instead chose deception and political chicanery to engineer the outcome he desired.

This is not open to interpretation, fren. This is a matter of public record, just as Ulric's own subsequent political chicanery to mire the Invasion and sabotage the Crusader cause is. Leo pushed for, and got, Operation REVIVAL, and received a Shilone aerospace fighter to the mouth as his just desserts. Ulric Kerenksy spent the Invasion A.) flexing on the other three Invading Clans and outperforming them by leaps and bounds because he blurdy well could and to disrupt their own operational tempo and render the entire Invasion less stable, and B.) sabotaging the Clans' efforts to successfully race to Terra with the assistance of Anastasius Focht, and he was eventually disgraced and assassinated for his unClanlike efforts.

So don't "have a nice day smiley-face-emoji" me.

there's a reason when you do a report or any paper in school that you can't use wikipedia as your source... we've already determined Sarna is not a good source for lore.

[1453 R]

Awful convenient for you to cite that people without a thirty-year old book a million years out of print sitting on their shelf from the nineties aren't allowed to use the open-source repository of lore information available to everyone to dispute your false and fallacious claims.

Shall I crack open my BattleTech Universe PDF when I get home from work and find the passages therein which describe the exact same events the exact same way, instead? Because we both know Sarna is entirely correct in this case and that can be provably verified with a book everyone has access to, not just old physical books that only grognards still have.

Don't play reindeer games with me, Vixen. One can be a fan of the Clans whilst also admitting the faults inherent in their society and their actions. As refreshing a take as the Clans are on a sci-fi society, they are hardly The Good Guys, and Clan Smoke Jaguar is among the least good of a bad lot.

[Jaroth Corbett]

1453 R, on 21 July 2025 - 09:02 AM, said:

Except what if - and here's a stretch - the source material actually says X. Per Sarna, which is as close to The Source Material as most of us are gonna get:

"[color=#000000]The proverbial straw came in September [/color]3048[color=#000000] when [/color]Outbound Light[color=#000000], a [/color]ComStar[color=#000000] exploration ship, appeared suddenly over the Smoke Jaguar homeworld of [/color]Huntress[color=#000000]. The ship was seized by the Smoke Jaguars, its crew interrogated and databanks sifted through, but Khan [/color]Leo Showers[color=#000000] did not immediately bring the incident to the other Clans' attention. He waited until November to alert the Grand Council to what had taken place, presenting the information gained in such a way as to make several points: the Federated Commonwealth was growing in power and threatened to restore the Star League under their rule; the discovery of the [/color]Helm Memory Core[color=#000000] and other Star League artifacts was helping the Inner Sphere to recover its lostech and erode one of the Clans' major advantages; and most distressingly, that ComStar was close to discovering the location of the Clan Homeworlds, leaving the Clans open to invasion.[/color][color=#000000][4][/color][color=#000000][5][/color]
The thought of a reverse invasion by the Inner Sphere was unthinkable and horrifying to the Clan Khans, and the vote to invade was passed by all but Clan Wolf. "

Khan Leo Showers, of Clan Smoke Jaguar. One of the two foremost Crusader Clans at the time, who had the option of impartially informing the Council of events that had transpired vis-a-vis the Outbound Light, but instead chose deception and political chicanery to engineer the outcome he desired.

This is not open to interpretation, fren. This is a matter of public record, just as Ulric's own subsequent political chicanery to mire the Invasion and sabotage the Crusader cause is. Leo pushed for, and got, Operation REVIVAL, and received a Shilone aerospace fighter to the mouth as his just desserts. Ulric Kerenksy spent the Invasion A.) flexing on the other three Invading Clans and outperforming them by leaps and bounds because he blurdy well could and to disrupt their own operational tempo and render the entire Invasion less stable, and B.) sabotaging the Clans' efforts to successfully race to Terra with the assistance of Anastasius Focht, and he was eventually disgraced and assassinated for his unClanlike efforts.

So don't "have a nice day smiley-face-emoji" me.

You should have read earlier posts I made. I don't use or rely on Sarna because they have been inaccurate in the past. Maybe they changed and everything is factually correct now but as the proverb says, "Once bitten, twice shy." Whenever I make an argument, I go to my library, pull up the book and either copy and paste the text or if I'm unable to, take a picture. EVERY argument I make is DIRECTLY from the books so they are in fact, a matter of public record and if you have a problem with that, take it up with the authors. So I'll say Have a nice day all the time because the source material backs me up.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

That's the timeline laid out in The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky pg 31 & 32. You want to get

Quote

as close to The Source Material as most of us are gonna get

. I want to have the ACTUAL source material. So it's y.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 21 July 2025 - 09:16 AM.

[KursedVixen]

1453 R, on 21 July 2025 - 09:09 AM, said:

Awful convenient for you to cite that people without a thirty-year old book a million years out of print sitting on their shelf from the nineties aren't allowed to use the open-source repository of lore information available to everyone to dispute your false and fallacious claims.

Shall I crack open my BattleTech Universe PDF when I get home from work and find the passages therein which describe the exact same events the exact same way, instead? Because we both know Sarna is entirely correct in this case and that can be provably verified with a book everyone has access to, not just old physical books that only grognards still have.

Don't play reindeer games with me, Vixen. One can be a fan of the Clans whilst also admitting the faults inherent in their society and their actions. As refreshing a take as the Clans are on a sci-fi society, they are hardly The Good Guys, and Clan Smoke Jaguar is among the least good of a bad lot.

Awful convenient for you that you continue to state the obvious as if it were not stated before already...NEVER In this whole topic did we say the clans are the good guys, Also CSJ is a very bad clan and all clans are diffrent for example Clan Ghost bear is unique in that it actually fosters a family unit, something no other clans do. Clan Sea fox/Diamond Shark is known for their merchant warriors. Clan Jade falcon is known for their banking practices giving rise to the phrase "as sharp as the talons of a falcon banker." You can hardly call all clans bad simply by looking at CSJ that's like say all of a certain people are this way, but again we never said the clans are the good guys...

Edited by KursedVixen, 21 July 2025 - 09:31 AM.

[1453 R]

So because your "source material" omits almost all actual details and historical record in favor of an obviously incomplete timeline bullet point, you claim that the omitted details everyone else is citing are simply not true and Operation REVIVAL is somehow the Inner Sphere's fault and Clan Smoke Jaguar's lying jerk of a Khan is entirely blameless?

Again. I've got eight hours until I can crack open my Battletech Universe PDF and confirm these facts, and Universe is as definitive and Official a source as all your old books. I grew up on novels of the Invasion and the FedComm Civil War; I know these eras of the universe's history. I know Leo Showers was a conniving politician who only escaped Vlad Ward's later purge of political Khans because he had a headbutting contest with a Shilone and lost. I know Ulric Kerensky was a victim of his own success, pushed beyond his reach, and fell out of favor so hard his Clan paid the price for decades afterwards.

And I know that even Clan Smoke Jaguar did not see themselves as 'The Good Guys' the way you're trying to portray them. They were proud of their own repressive brutality. They were proud of Turtle Bay. They thought their savagery and cruelty made them strong, they gloried in being The Big Bad Villains. Right up until the entire Inner Sphere, the Wolves-in-Exile, and elements of the Nova Cats turned around and decided the Jaguars' brutality made them the best possible candidate for Annihilation to prove to the Clans that the Inner Sphere was done taking their s***. They got their murderous posteriors kicked up and down the mountain in the Inner Sphere by Precentor Victor Davion and they got their heineys handed to them on Huntress by Ariana Winston even after Morgan Hasek-Davion got himself assassinated in the weirdest, least well-explained event in the entire fiction and that includes the whole business with the Tetatae.

Just because I don't have your thirty year old TROs doesn't mean I don't know the history.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

I got tired of arguing source material with him when he dismissed my source material out of hand, the source material that is important for establishing the crossing of a Moral Event Horizon for the Clans before they even invaded. The title of the series makes no bones about it, for crying out loud (Betrayal of Ideals). He will not argue on those grounds in good faith, ever.

[Jaroth Corbett]

1453 R, on 21 July 2025 - 09:34 AM, said:

So because your "source material" omits almost all actual details and historical record in favor of an obviously incomplete timeline bullet point, you claim that the omitted details everyone else is citing are simply not true and Operation REVIVAL is somehow the Inner Sphere's fault and Clan Smoke Jaguar's lying jerk of a Khan is entirely blameless?

First of all, what's with the quotes? It's the actual source material written by the people who created the BTU. If you have a problem, I suggest you take it up with these people who oversaw The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky.

Spoiler

Secondly there is nothing omitted. I explained in detail via text what happened then on top of that just to illustrate the point, I took pictures straight from the book where the info came from. Again if you have a problem, take it up with the people who made it.

Third, stop putting words in people's mouths. When did we EVER say the Showers was blameless? The point you seem to keep missing is that as a Crusader, Showers would not have had the impetus to even get the topic of invasion back on the table, had it not been for the Outbound Lights.

I OPENLY and FREELY concede that as an ambitious man, he used the incident for his own personal agenda as he in fact DID personally gain from this incident both 1. as a Crusader it helped the overall Crusader cause and helped them win the vote and 2. He was elected IlKhan because of this. I have NO problems conceding that. I don't know you why have this notion that people in Clans don't have ambitions and that don't seek advancement and glory. Tell me you don't understand your subject matter without telling me you don't understand your subject matter.

1453 R, on 21 July 2025 - 09:34 AM, said:

Again. I've got eight hours until I can crack open my Battletech Universe PDF and confirm these facts, and Universe is as definitive and Official a source as all your old books.

The BattleTech Universe book you can't wait to open, is it this one? If so, I'll be waiting.

Spoiler

1453 R, on 21 July 2025 - 09:34 AM, said:

Just because I don't have your thirty year old TROs doesn't mean I don't know the history.

I never said that. I simply was in the position you were in way back in the day when I quoted Sarna and someone told me according to the books, that's not correct and I didn't want to end up in that position continually so i made an effort to go right to the source. The issue that you have is you are standing on standing on something that is countered by the source material and again since they made the universe, I will ALWAYS defer to them. It's like someone arguing Star Wars and quoting from somewhere that so and so is x and then someone says well George Lucas wrote about the subject and his position is y. Who would you believe?

[Jaroth Corbett]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 21 July 2025 - 09:46 AM, said:

I got tired of arguing source material with him when he dismissed my source material out of hand, the source material that is important for establishing the crossing of a Moral Event Horizon for the Clans before they even invaded. The title of the series makes no bones about it, for crying out loud (Betrayal of Ideals). He will not argue on those grounds in good faith, ever.

Again, your issue is with the people who WROTE those books, not me. Don't shoot the messenger. I have ALWAYS argued in good faith because EVERY argument I make, I back it up with the source material and I tell you exactly what page it is on so anyone viewing the debate can confirm for themselves. Don't get mad because the source material doesn't back you up and you lost. Make a better argument.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 21 July 2025 - 10:06 AM.

[1453 R]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 21 July 2025 - 09:46 AM, said:

I got tired of arguing source material with him when he dismissed my source material out of hand, the source material that is important for establishing the crossing of a Moral Event Horizon for the Clans before they even invaded. The title of the series makes no bones about it, for crying out loud (Betrayal of Ideals). He will not argue on those grounds in good faith, ever.

Oh, I know. Folks like him adore striking down every source that isn't their personal hand annotated out-of-print sourcebook from a billion years ago, because then they can be the sole arbiter of what is and isn't true. Nobody can fact-check them, nobody can disagree with them, because They Have The Facts and that's that. They don't even have to crack open or read those ancient books - the simple fact is nobody else has them, so they can say whatever they like about the contents of those books. Who's gonna point out the fibbery, eh? That's the amazing part of being the sole custodian of the True Lore - whatever you say is, by default, the True Lore because nobody else could ever possibly contradict you.

Never mind that Tex covered all this same material in his documentary series on YouTube, and Tex has done such a phenomenal job researching and presenting his documentaries that Catalyst incorporated Randolph P. Checkers into the canon as a war historian in Tex's honor. I *guaran-freaking-tee* Tex has all the same sourcebooks this guy does and more besides, as well as the ability to call up Catalyst directly and fact-check his stuff with CGL's own internal loremasters.

But nawh. We're all dead wrong about how something as well documented as Operation REVIVAL started, and only Jaroth's own personal TRO still retains the real truth.

Bleh. Absolutely ludicrous.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Why so salty bro?

Let's be clear, I'm not infallible. I've made mistakes. There are times where I've gotten things wrong both from a POV perspective and a lore one in terms of the facts. When that happens, I apologize and correct myself. I'd be happy to show you an example if you like. The point is I got better as I kept debating and I made sure to fact check everything I said. I make arguments to the best of my knowledge but when I'm right, I'll stand on it.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 21 July 2025 - 08:40 AM, said:

Actually it does because that is what the source material says, unless you want to say you made up your own source material... Just because you wrote a story about how Kirk died before becoming captain of the Enterprise does not make your little story is source material or cannon to the lore...

You and Jaroth Stillignored do not understand how to cite sources; the source material emphatically does not make your argument - what it does do is tell the story of how Leo Showers lied to the Council in order to get his war.

If I accuse you of a crime, like wearing pastels in Autumn, and I fabricate the evidence against you - is it the jury which was presented that false evidence who is truly responsible for your imprisonment, just because they returned a guilty verdict? That's what you're claiming with Showers and the Grand Council. But no, I'm the one who framed you for fashion crimes, and I'm the one who bears the blame when the judge sentences you to fashion re-education. Everyone else acted within the law, and possibly even with good faith. Now, if the jury had participated in my deception (perhaps they disliked your shoes,) then we could say that the entire jury sentenced you, but people who act in good faith on someone else's deception simply do not bear the same culpability as the person doing the deceiving - like when Leo Showers and his Smoke Jaguars started the Clan Invasion.

Edited by Void Angel, 22 July 2025 - 03:58 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I know how exactly how to use the source material and have been doing so for YEARS on this forum. I can show you MULTIPLE threads where I participated where I made my points using the source material. I go directly to the source to counter the arguments and do not just reference it, I either copy and paste directly from it or take a picture if I can't.

Like I said I will ALWAYS defer to the source material since it was made by the people who created the BTU. You can take the coward's way out like Void Stillcoward did or make a better argument. If your only option is to ignore the person countering you then maybe your argument wasn't sound to begin with. Stop shooting the messenger. I didn't create the BTU or write the books now did I?

Again it doesn't matter how YOU the individual wants to frame it, what happened, happened. I'll use the go-vote as an example. I used this picture earlier so it's not anything new.

Spoiler

Hmmm someone with half a brain could postulate that the first thing led directly to the second thing which directly led to the third thing. Once AGAIN, I have NO idea why Void Stillcoward and his cohorts think Vixen and I are suggesting that Leo Showers was the pinnacle of innocence and virtue and that he was blameless. We NEVER said that. I conceded that point earlier. The point is, were it not for the Outbound Light, he would not have had the impetus to get the motion back on the table to even be heard or discussed again. The Wardens had successfully stalemated the Crusaders for DECADES.

I don't have to run and hide and ignore people because they made a better argument than me, so whenever Void Stillcoward wants to unignore me, I'll be here waiting with the source material.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 22 July 2025 - 06:48 AM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

The hilarious part about the Clans' overall motivations for invading is that again, proactive defense was a flimsy pretext that was rapidly discarded.

One of their strongest motivations?

"HOW DARE YOU START THE NEW SLDF WITHOUT US?!" (which had not even happened yet, was dubious in likelihood, etc)

The idea that the IS might bring back the Star League and the SLDF by proxy without their input (despite them being generations removed from the original exiles) burned their biscuits real bad.

Edited by a 5 year old with an Uzi, 22 July 2025 - 10:48 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 22 July 2025 - 10:37 AM, said:

The hilarious part about the Clans' overall motivations for invading is that again, proactive defense was a flimsy pretext that was rapidly discarded.


One of their strongest motivations?


"HOW DARE YOU START THE NEW SLDF WITHOUT US?!" (which had not even happened yet, was dubious in likelihood, etc)

The idea that the IS might bring back the Star League and the SLDF by proxy without their input (despite them being generations removed from the original exiles) burned their biscuits real bad.

I don't think so. Why would the Clans be worried? There was no information sent back from the Dragoons indicating even a HINT that the IS would reform the Star League after they pounded each other during the Successions Wars. There was no indication given when the Outbound Light was captured either. The IS only decided to reform the Star League BECAUSE of the Clans and that idea was only proposed all the way in 3058 at the Whitting Conference. There were no "burned biscuits" to the best of my knowledge. Prove me wrong. I'll gladly apologize if I am.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Grave Covenant novel Chapter 6 - pg. 42 & 46 - Author - Michael A Stackpole

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 22 July 2025 - 11:41 AM.

[Duke Falcon]

Oh-kay...
Lemmesee!

1. Sarna is a good source for mechs, equipments and techs but loosely for lore. Sarna is way to general and do state some stuffs wrong. If one want to mudfight with lore, handbooks. Just not do that in Ultramarine-style! Handbooks are not Bibles just sources. Not utter unquestionable truth carved into stone by Cthulhu the OverGod. I hope BattleTech would not move toward the GW-path and revised\retconned\rewhatevered annually... But changes would occur, sure, sometimes...

2. Leo Showers were a bit *sshole. Not a saint nor devil. Just a grey figure in an universe where everyone is grey (some are darker). He were a Crusader and Jaguar, literally indoctrinated that they, the Clans were destined to return and "get rekt" da Inna Spheer... He may twisted the truth. All Clans' all khans did the same, that game called "politics".

3. Wardens and Crusaders. Everyone like to treat a given Clan as either one of those. Clans are not uniformal, each Clans has their own warden and crusader members. Usually the majority of these factions within a Clan try to affect politics to kept their Clan on that path what their faction envisioned. Some Clans changed status between warden and crusader like one switch socks. Some less so.
But facts: The Crusaders were to hasty. They not considered carefully enough the consequences of their actions. Yes, the toumans of the Clans are rival with the armies of the Inner Sphere. But a few Clans against the whole Sphere, well, the Crusaders dreamed a bit larger they should.
And the Wardens kept the Crusaders at bay for decades? They did downvoted them a few times. But they sure cannot kept the things like that for all eternity. Even the Wardens wished to return to the Inner Sphere just a bit differently than the Crusaders. The captured Comstar ship helped the Crusader cause? Initially yes, ultimately no. The Clans sooner or later must acted about the Inner Sphere. They just got a "sign" and misread it (sorry, Showers, it cost you your Clan!).

4. "HOW DARE YOU START THE NEW SLDF WITHOUT US?!" (which had not even happened yet, was dubious in likelihood, etc) <= Mostly the Clans would not give a flying f**k if the Sphere reform the Star League. They not really treated it as a legal organisation when Bulldog and Serpent get the Jags rekt. Most of the Clans would said such an SL and SLDF are illegal and not legit and do what Clans usually do...

5. Not really, but need a fifth point for a legit Star...

[Void Angel]

Showers did more than twist the truth - he outright lied. He conducted horrific, destructive interrogation involving torture and psychoactive drugs (so much for protecting civilians,) and he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Inner Sphere had no idea the Clans existed, and no way to trace the Path of Outbound Light. Yet he told the Council that hordes of Inner Sphere barbarians now knew where they lived, so the Clans had to Act Now. That is far beyond twisting the truth.

Needing to do something about the Inner Sphere and engaging in an unprovoked invasion out of the night are not synonymous. The Clans could have quietly colonized the Periphery realms and created a bulwark, for example. Better yet, they might have actually worked at improving their own worlds and exploring their corner of space. But doing the actual work to explore and colonize the worlds around them would never do for the Clans: it would be hard, and boring, with no glorious battle to be had - and the Clan system of ritual theft by combat would have made colonization a bad gamble for whatever Clan tried it.

So it might be true that the Clans "had" to invade the Inner Sphere - but only because the alternative would have required the Clans' fascist warrior culture to change, and they'd rather die. Actually, they'd rather you died.

[KursedVixen]

DrnkJawa, on 08 February 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Hey clanners, just a simple reminder Operation Bulldog!

Hey Spheroids remember who helped you and what clan you specifically targeted??