805 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

Void Angel, on 10 July 2025 - 10:17 AM, said:

Just because the SLDF exiles fractured along cultural lines, it does not mean that the people they left light years away were responsible. Your claim that not only is this the case, but that it also makes the Inner Sphere of 3050 the attacking party is literally insane. You might just as rationally insist that you are a poached egg. You are - as is starting to seem typical for you - conflating different terms and arguing with whichever definition suits your fancy. It's not a "personal insult" to tell you that's asinine. If you want your opinions to be respected, don't jeer at people while misrepresenting their arguments and trying to shoehorn quotes you don't understand into arguments that are obviously incorrect to any sane person.

You clearly have a comprehension problem so let me dumb it down as much as I can. The people in the SLDF are not random people, they are representatives OF the Great Houses and it is THAT allegiance to those Houses that caused friction within the SLDF. So even after leaving the Inner Sphere, the Great Houses WERE (indirectly) responsible for the civil war and you can scream, holler, whine, complain, *****, moan and flop around all you want, THE SOURCE MATERIAL SAYS SO.

Additionally I never said the Clans weren't aggressive in the first place, they are after all the descendants of an army. This is where your comprehension problem comes into play. I said they weren't THE aggressors as in they weren't the only people who were exclusively violent. The Inner Sphere wasn't a paradise where everyone ran through meadows filled with flowers and everything was peaches and cream. I used the SOURCE MATERIAL to clearly illustrate, the violent, AGGRESSIVE nature of the Inner Sphere where the Great Houses committed atrocity after atrocity. I highlighted just two massacres and the fact that WMDs were used and that there was a clear disregard for civilians/non-combatants. I linked an excerpt from a novel where the Whitting Conference was held where A. Focht and Victor Steiner-Davion (two major characters in the BTU) confirmed those exact points. I am not conflating anything and since you seem to want to keep making digs, I am now free to do so.

The people who wrote the books matter. You do not. I have made my points clearly and linked directly to the books as proof to back up what I say. If you can't grasp that, it's not my problem,. I stand on the source material which makes me right. Flop around all you want Flopsy. The source material stands.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 10 July 2025 - 10:45 AM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

At no point EVER did I say the IS was peaceful. I said the Clans were aggressors against the IS. I also refuted the idea that the Clans minded their manners when it came to mass murder, use of nuclear force, deceit, harm against civilians... You and Kursed have repeatedly dismissed my sources, attempted to argue past me and engage in whataboutism, tu quoque, special pleading, some kind of posturing argumentum ad baculum (over the internet lol?), ad hominem, literally ANYTHING to protect your Bad Guys From Outer Space turned d-bag power fantasy factions.

The story of the Outbound Light and the events that precipitated the Invasion are a good example of how the Clans can be deceitful even to each other, as well. The Invasion was borne of pure aggression and clear evidence that the IS was in no shape to invade the Clan Homeworlds and clearly had made no plans as such, did not dissuade them from continuing to stomp through the Inner Sphere, effectively obliterating the FRR, committing Turtle Bay, enslaving thousands...

[Void Angel]

The source material isn't the magic "I win" card that you think it is. Because your own citations of that material have fallen short of proving your point. That actually acts against you; if you can't prove your crazy thesis with your own best evidence, you don't have a source - or a leg - to stand on. So you can scream and "holler" all you want, boy - the inadequacy of your position stands.

People who engage in bad or dishonest thought often accuse others of what they do themselves - your constant equivocation is a great example. You insist on changing definitions to suit yourself, as well as constantly misrepresenting what you've been told while snidely deriding your opponent's "lack" of reading comprehension.

No one has accused you of saying the Clans weren't aggressive - although your assertion that they were not the aggressors is equally inane. I, and Uzi for that matter before he bowed out of your abusive crazy circus, objected to your statements like this one

Jaroth Corbett, on 09 July 2025 - 08:59 AM, said:

Clans were the aggressors? You think the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere were living in peace singing kumbaya around the camp fire and the Clans showed up screaming, 'GET REKT!".

claiming that the the Inner Sphere, rather than the Clans were the aggressors in the Clan Invasion. The Clan Invasion that was launched with no provocation whatsoever. That's. crazy. It is, and no amount of affected and unearned condescension on your part will make it less so.

So nobody said the Inner Sphere wasn't aggressive. Nobody claimed that you said the Clans weren't aggressive. But you - and Vix - have both said that the Clans were not the aggressors in the premeditated surprise attack they themselves launched. That's insane; none of your haughty citations from works you have read but not understood have even come close to proving that point. And you just want to argue because you hate being wrong. Well, no; that's not true - you don't care about being wrong.

You just hate that you lost the argument.

Since you've not cited any relevant facts over the course of several attempted "rebuttals," or even tried to defend your claim in good faith, I see no reason to continue to give you a hearing. Your speaking privileges are revoked, and my experience of the world will be better for it. Welcome to ignore.

[Jaroth Corbett]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 10 July 2025 - 12:13 PM, said:

At no point EVER did I say the IS was peaceful. I said the Clans were aggressors against the IS. I also refuted the idea that the Clans minded their manners when it came to mass murder, use of nuclear force, deceit, harm against civilians... You and Kursed have repeatedly dismissed my sources, attempted to argue past me and engage in whataboutism, tu quoque, special pleading, some kind of posturing argumentum ad baculum (over the internet lol?), ad hominem, literally ANYTHING to protect your Bad Guys From Outer Space turned d-bag power fantasy factions.

The story of the Outbound Light and the events that precipitated the Invasion are a good example of how the Clans can be deceitful even to each other, as well. The Invasion was borne of pure aggression and clear evidence that the IS was in no shape to invade the Clan Homeworlds and clearly had made no plans as such, did not dissuade them from continuing to stomp through the Inner Sphere, effectively obliterating the FRR, committing Turtle Bay, enslaving thousands...

Wait, you're replying to me again? what happened to I won't dignify that with a refutation????

you're in, you're out, you're in again. Well I guess I should expect that from a 5 year old with an uzi.....

I, speaking for myself, told you that I don't trust Sarna because they have been inaccurate in the past and if you look at ANY of the old threads I have debated in, you will see I have been consistent on that. Nevertheless, my sources are directly from the books. I don't argue PAST anyone. I do what I always do; make my claim, go straight to the books and link it, to back up what I say. I've been the same ever since I joined the forums.

I didn't engage in whataboutism, tu quoque, special pleading, some kind of posturing argumentum ad baculum or ad hominem because I don't need to. I have the source material. That's it, end of discussion. Again what you think has no bearing as it doesn't trump what the creators wrote.

Of course people in the Clans can use politics to advance their own interests... duh They are not robots. They have agendas just like people in the IS do. People have ambitions and some are willing to do things others are not. Did you think they were all just carbon copies instead of individuals?

Void Angel, on 10 July 2025 - 12:23 PM, said:

The source material isn't the magic "I win" card that you think it is. Because your own citations of that material have fallen short of proving your point. That actually acts against you; if you can't prove your crazy thesis with your own best evidence, you don't have a source - or a leg - to stand on. So you can scream and "holler" all you want, boy - the inadequacy of your position stands.

People who engage in bad or dishonest thought often accuse others of what they do themselves - your constant equivocation is a great example. You insist on changing definitions to suit yourself, as well as constantly misrepresenting what you've been told while snidely deriding your opponent's "lack" of reading comprehension.

No one has accused you of saying the Clans weren't aggressive - although your assertion that they were not the aggressors is equally inane. I, and Uzi for that matter before he bowed out of your abusive crazy circus, objected to your statements like this one
claiming that the the Inner Sphere, rather than the Clans were the aggressors in the Clan Invasion. The Clan Invasion that was launched with no provocation whatsoever. That's. crazy. It is, and no amount of affected and unearned condescension on your part will make it less so.

So nobody said the Inner Sphere wasn't aggressive. Nobody claimed that you said the Clans weren't aggressive. But you - and Vix - have both said that the Clans were not the aggressors in the premeditated surprise attack they themselves launched. That's insane; none of your haughty citations from works you have read but not understood have even come close to proving that point. And you just want to argue because you hate being wrong. Well, no; that's not true - you don't care about being wrong.

You just hate that you lost the argument.

Since you've not cited any relevant facts over the course of several attempted "rebuttals," or even tried to defend your claim in good faith, I see no reason to continue to give you a hearing. Your speaking privileges are revoked, and my experience of the world will be better for it. Welcome to ignore.

That's literally how the source material works. It IS the trump card. I proved my point on more than one occasion with direct proof from the books, You didn't YOU are the one that hates that you lost the argument. The creators of the BTU trump whatever you say. I will as I always have, stand on the source material. I'm happy to ignore you because I won. make a better argument next time.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 10 July 2025 - 12:50 PM.

[Will9761]

KursedVixen, on 07 July 2025 - 11:44 PM, said:

I dissagree with your second point clans are not an 'evil empire" troupe, (As stated before there are no 'good guys' in battletech) They are the decendants of the star league a faction some even in the Inner sphere reguard highly, they do not lack morals they lack the morals the inner sphere has. They are a diffrent culture. for some of the things they do like their eugenics program were how they survived on formerly inhospitable worlds, unlike the sphere they have rules of engagemant and aside from exceptions (Smoke jaguar) they attempt to avoid if not entierly remove civlian collateral damage, the whole trial thing was to prevent uneeded waste of resources, some clans even realize that the inner spehre did not deserve a formal 'trial' was Nicolas' vision flawed? maybe, but he was seeking to do away with old house rivalries that caused the pentagon wars and such, the clans united under one banner not any house banner, I'm sure Nicholas's death had unintended consuquences on the clans future. But while the inner sphere were blasting themselves back to the Stone age, the clans were building themselves into their own faction, developing new technology, technology so advanced that they seemed like aliens to the sphere when they invaded ,but saying the clans have the 'evil empire' troupe is honestly not what they are ,even if people like to use that as an excuse to hate them. I do not believe they were created to be hated, it's just another reason people use to hate them among others.

Honestly you can make that argument over any faction in battletech, House Liao?? to say that the clans were specifically created to be hated is honestly short sighted.

i like to think of the Klingons from Star Trek as an example...

With what I said with reason number 2, I am basing that as an assumption for players who have little to no knowledge of the clans based on what they saw in the Animated Series or from the computer games. While I know that yes, the Clan Invasion was a Crusader Clan-lead assault on the Inner Sphere (with Clan Wolf being the exception because, they were the only Warden Clan who opposed it.), not many people know what a Crusader or Warden is. As for being a faction that was made to be hated, Clan Jade Falcon was led to being that "evil empire" thanks to the TV series stereotyping them as cartoon villains. As with the computer games, Clan Smoke Jaguar has been the protagonist of every game since the early to late 90's from The Crescent Hawk's Revenge to Mechwarrior 3.

While true, you could say the same about the Successor States or the Periphery Powers, I'm not here to talk about them, the author wanted to be indulged on why people or they themselves dislike the clans. This thread is to discuss why that is, it's not a "In Defense of Clans" thread.

While I do like the Clans, this is one of my reasons of why I can see why people dislike them. You can say that I'm being short sighted, but my opinion is based on the assumption of people who know very little about the clans based upon what they have seen or heard.

[KursedVixen]

Will9761, on 14 July 2025 - 10:40 AM, said:

With what I said with reason number 2, I am basing that as an assumption for players who have little to no knowledge of the clans based on what they saw in the Animated Series or from the computer games. While I know that yes, the Clan Invasion was a Crusader Clan-lead assault on the Inner Sphere (with Clan Wolf being the exception because, they were the only Warden Clan who opposed it.), not many people know what a Crusader or Warden is. As for being a faction that was made to be hated, Clan Jade Falcon was led to being that "evil empire" thanks to the TV series stereotyping them as cartoon villains. As with the computer games, Clan Smoke Jaguar has been the protagonist of every game since the early to late 90's from The Crescent Hawk's Revenge to Mechwarrior 3.

While true, you could say the same about the Successor States or the Periphery Powers, I'm not here to talk about them, the author wanted to be indulged on why people or they themselves dislike the clans. This thread is to discuss why that is, it's not a "In Defense of Clans" thread.

While I do like the Clans, this is one of my reasons of why I can see why people dislike them. You can say that I'm being short sighted, but my opinion is based on the assumption of people who know very little about the clans based upon what they have seen or heard.

the old cartoon is no longer cannon, it's been retconned as a Steiner propaganda holovid, nobody should be taking that as cannon... though i can see where people would,but they really shouldn't be the games however are diffrent but also depends on whose point of view your viewing it from like MW2

Smoke Jaguar is a horrible example of the clans basing their actions on your (not specifically you, I shouldn't have to say this.) opinion of the clans is like saying "These" people are all like this...

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 July 2025 - 12:21 PM.

[Will9761]

KursedVixen, on 14 July 2025 - 11:55 AM, said:

the old cartoon is no longer cannon, it's been retconned as a Steiner propaganda holovid, nobody should be taking that as cannon... though i can see where people would,but they really shouldn't be the games however are diffrent but also depends on whose point of view your viewing it from like MW2

Smoke Jaguar is a horrible example of the clans basing their actions on your (not specifically you, I shouldn't have to say this.) opinion of the clans is like saying "These" people are all like this...

I'm gonna have to disagree with you that one. The old cartoon, is actually cannon as many characters had various sourcebooks that canonized them. You had Adam Steiner who became an Archon of the Lyran Commonwealth and had children during the Dark Age Era, Franklin Sakamoto became the officer of the Otomo and great grandfather of Coordinator Yori Kurita and Nicolai Malthus was hilariously thrown in prison for trying challenge a judge to a Trial of Grievance.

As for Clan Smoke Jaguar, not at all. They were written to be hated, from the Londerholm Revolt to the Turtle Bay Massacre, they were made to be the scumbags of the clans. Hence why Operation Bulldog and Taskforce Serpent was made to punish them. This is what made Clan Smoke Jaguar become ripe for being the villain of the 90's computer games. Also, this is coming from the perspective of a kid who got into the BT Universe from the 90's and early 2000's era through visual media instead of the books and Tabletop, before Sarna was a thing and WarhawkPPC and Patrick's BattleTech Archive were a blip on the radar.

After all, not everyone had a Sourcebook and miniatures at the time. Some people got into the BT lore from the PC/Console games and TV shows as those mediums were way easier to consume back then.

Edited by Will9761, 14 July 2025 - 05:41 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Will9761, on 14 July 2025 - 05:38 PM, said:

I'm gonna have to disagree with you that one. The old cartoon, is actually cannon as many characters had various sourcebooks that canonized them. You had Adam Steiner who became an Archon of the Lyran Commonwealth and had children during the Dark Age Era, Franklin Sakamoto became the officer of the Otomo and great grandfather of Coordinator Yori Kurita and Nicolai Malthus was hilariously thrown in prison for trying challenge a judge to a Trial of Grievance.

As for Clan Smoke Jaguar, not at all. They were written to be hated, from the Londerholm Revolt to the Turtle Bay Massacre, they were made to be the scumbags of the clans. Hence why Operation Bulldog and Taskforce Serpent was made to punish them. This is what made Clan Smoke Jaguar become ripe for being the villain of the 90's computer games. Also, this is coming from the perspective of a kid who got into the BT Universe from the 90's and early 2000's era through visual media instead of the books and Tabletop, before Sarna was a thing and WarhawkPPC and Patrick's BattleTech Archive were a blip on the radar.

After all, not everyone had a Sourcebook and miniatures at the time. Some people got into the BT lore from the PC/Console games and TV shows as those mediums were way easier to consume back then.

while the characters in the cartoon can be cannon the overall story is not.

[Will9761]

KursedVixen, on 14 July 2025 - 09:04 PM, said:

while the characters in the cartoon can be cannon the overall story is not.

Fair enough. I see where you are coming from with that.

[1453 R]

Void Angel, on 10 July 2025 - 12:23 PM, said:

...
The Clan Invasion that was launched with no provocation whatsoever. That's. crazy. It is, and no amount of affected and unearned condescension on your part will make it less so.
...

In fairness - and from what I've seen of the "argument" from this guy, it's more fairness than they deserve - the Clans did not decide on a lark out of nowhere to invade the Inner Sphere specifically and solely to kick over sandcastles. The Outbound Light managed to poke the mother of all hornet's nests, and one of the key fears Leo Showers used to kick Operation REVIVAL over the finish line was the idea that ComStar was close to discovering the Exodus Road and the location of the Clans, enabling the Inner Sphere to strike first.

Which, knowing the Inner Sphere...was not even slightly an unfounded worry. Tell all the Great Houses that a group of extremely resource-poor people scattered across a tiny handful of planets who nevertheless possess a level of technological sophistication that put even the height of the Star League to shame, and it would have been an instant race to see who could follow the Exodus Road and snaffle up all the tasty morsels first. It was less "hey let's go kick over the Inner Sphere, it'll be fun!" and more "the endless barbarian hordes are only a few decades away at most from finding their way to our gates, and our only chance of forestalling it is to hit them first and win before they can trace us back to our homes."

Given what happened to Clan Smoked Hamguar, turned out to be a very reasonable fear, even if CSJ very much brought it on themselves.

The Clans were absolutely the aggressors, and they earned what became of them. CSJ's brutality earned it Annihilation, while the more lenient and adaptable Clans eventually became important fixtures in the Inner Sphere (Rasalhague Dominion is objectively badass, the Sea Foxes are great fun, and eventually the Wolves actually won Operation REVIVAL). But the lore does lay out reasons behind Operation REVIVAL that are not entirely unreasonable and without merit.

Did Big Man Leo manipulate the situation unfairly and push for an invasion that proooooolly shouldn't have happened? Absolutely. He also got what he deserved in the form of an aerospace fighter to his entire face, heh. But the idea of ComStar blowing the whistle on the Clans, or otherwise causing the Clans' downfall when the secret of the Exodus Road was finally uncovered, is far from implausible. Pre-Focht ComStar were just as evil and insane as the most Crusader-est of Crusader Clans, after all, and that's the ComStar Jaime Wolf's reports would've painted for the Clans.

Given an insurmountable advantage in combat technology and an equally insurmountable deficit in manpower? A blitzkrieg-style mad rush for Terra to seize the world and dictate terms is probably the best plan they could've honestly hoped for to try and preserve their Home cluster. It made the most of the Clans' advantages and minimized their manpower weakness as much as could be managed. And frankly it probably would have worked if ComStar hadn't done ComStar Things. people forget that the Clans got pretty damn close before ComStar realized what the game was, and it was only the Com Guards emerging from literally nowhere with scads of Star League tech and months of inside information from ComStar "advisers" to the Clan war machine that allowed Space AT&T to forestall the invasion and give the Great Houses time to peel their faces off their hind ends and figure out what the hell was happening.

Ended up working out very poorly for the Clans, of course. That whole Wars of Reaving thing mega sucked for literally everyone involved, heh. But the lore paints a picture of Operation REVIVAL being...reasonable, if not necessarily truly justified. And hey - was worth a shot, quiaff?

[KursedVixen]

1453 R, on 17 July 2025 - 12:08 PM, said:

Ended up working out very poorly for the Clans, of course. That whole Wars of Reaving thing mega sucked for literally everyone involved, heh. But the lore paints a picture of Operation REVIVAL being...reasonable, if not necessarily truly justified. And hey - was worth a shot, quiaff?

For the home clans it may have ended poorly and same for Jade falcon and especially CSJ, but for ghost bear? I think clan Ghost bear ended up better than they were they merged with Rasualhauge.

Clan wolf while intially divided in two soon became the rulers of Terra.

Clan Sea Fox likely gained much in profit with their dealings with the Inner sphere.

Clan hell horses and Nova cat may have not faired very well but clan hell horses stil exist so...

of all the clans that invaded i think Ghost bear ended up getting the best out of it. though Wolf may have as well.

Sea fox defintly benifitted alot.

Edited by KursedVixen, 17 July 2025 - 01:13 PM.

[Void Angel]

1453 R, on 17 July 2025 - 12:08 PM, said:

In fairness - and from what I've seen of the "argument" from this guy, it's more fairness than they deserve - the Clans did not decide on a lark out of nowhere to invade the Inner Sphere specifically and solely to kick over sandcastles. The Outbound Light managed to poke the mother of all hornet's nests, and one of the key fears Leo Showers used to kick Operation REVIVAL over the finish line was the idea that ComStar was close to discovering the Exodus Road and the location of the Clans, enabling the Inner Sphere to strike first.

Showers' deception broke the deadlock and allowed the Crusaders to hit the Inner Sphere - but they spent what, months, mopping up the pirate kingdoms and Periphery realms in their path? They would have had access to hyperpulse generators of the Inner Sphere's network. And they found that those people were totally unprepared; people actually thought the Clans might be aliens at first (it was the Elementals, you see.) By the time they were done consolidating their initial holdings while making contact with Comstar's hierarchy, the Clans should have wondered why the Inner Sphere wasn't showing any signs of mobilization. But nobody asked those questions, because the invading Clans were getting what they wanted; what they were "born" for - the prophesied invasion of the Inner Sphere that justified all their perquisites and privileges in Clan society.

And why were the the Clans were stuck on poor, barely habitable worlds in the first place? Partly because they never put much effort in anything but warfighting. After all, there are over 1,800 inhabited worlds in the Inner Sphere. Could there really have been no better worlds out there amongst the Clan Homeworlds? They're not clustered in that small an area - there should be good worlds nearby if they went and looked for them. At the least you'd expect resource-rich woulds that might have a hostile environment. But the Clans' might-makes-right system actively prevented any Clan from exploring for better worlds, because once they'd spent the resources to find a more suitable world (or asteroid belt to mine, etc,) and set up the infrastructure to live there... that just took a very significant expenditure of resources, which now didn't go toward their Warrior Caste. So any Clan that didn't go to all that expense could just nip over and hammer their defenders flat once all the hard work was done. Keep the location secret? Hah! There's a Trial for that, and how you have to give it up, or else.

So no, the Clans didn't just invade out of malice - but they had to invade, because their fascist culture required (as they all do) an enemy to fight in order to justify the primacy of the Warrior Caste. It's not surprising they found an excuse. Nobody in the Inner Sphere cared much when some pirate kingdoms went dark coreward of the Inner Sphere, either. By the time anyone who came to check escaped, the Clans could have been impregnable: guarding their jump points with Warships that no Inner Sphere power even had, and rapidly industrializing using the resources and population of the weakly-defended Periphery realms they'd conquered. But that wouldn't satisfy the Crusaders, because their version of the ideology required that they crush the Inner Sphere to punish the "barbarians" for the sins of their ancestors.

Edited by Void Angel, 17 July 2025 - 03:32 PM.

[1453 R]

I mean, a lot of the same arguments could be made about the Great Houses, heh. They're also all military-first cultures one way or another, and none of them showed any real will to expand outwards through the Periphery and into uncharted space rather than carving bloody chunks off each other and passing around border worlds. The Successor States didn't bother with exploration or rebuilding either, unless it was exploring lost worlds that might have weapons on them, or rebuilding weapons factories.

Now, I am personally of the opinion that Ol' Nickyboi was an absolute ****** who poisoned the Clans and sent them on a path to madness due to his Jupiter-sized inferiority complex when compared to Papa Alexander, heh. But I also feel like that tipping point of "invade or forever admit that we are free food for the Successor States" was coming up real soon. Should they have invaded? In the end, seems like nah! Except for the Clans that ended up freed by the invasion and became much better societies overall for it. If I hadda pick a society to live amongst in the IlClan era of BattleTech, it would be the Sea Foxes, hands down.

But regardless, I can see why they did invade, and we have numerous examples throughout history of cultures being led astray by absolute wanklord leaders before ending up as better versions of themselves after a good drubbing. I hear Germany's a pretty great place these days, as the obvious example. Heh...and say what one will about the Clans' take on society - they have the coolest toys, bar absolutely none.

[KursedVixen]

1453 R, on 17 July 2025 - 03:56 PM, said:

I mean, a lot of the same arguments could be made about the Great Houses, heh. They're also all military-first cultures one way or another, and none of them showed any real will to expand outwards through the Periphery and into uncharted space rather than carving bloody chunks off each other and passing around border worlds. The Successor States didn't bother with exploration or rebuilding either, unless it was exploring lost worlds that might have weapons on them, or rebuilding weapons factories.

Now, I am personally of the opinion that Ol' Nickyboi was an absolute ****** who poisoned the Clans and sent them on a path to madness due to his Jupiter-sized inferiority complex when compared to Papa Alexander, heh. But I also feel like that tipping point of "invade or forever admit that we are free food for the Successor States" was coming up real soon. Should they have invaded? In the end, seems like nah! Except for the Clans that ended up freed by the invasion and became much better societies overall for it. If I hadda pick a society to live amongst in the IlClan era of BattleTech, it would be the Sea Foxes, hands down.

But regardless, I can see why they did invade, and we have numerous examples throughout history of cultures being led astray by absolute wanklord leaders before ending up as better versions of themselves after a good drubbing. I hear Germany's a pretty great place these days, as the obvious example. Heh...and say what one will about the Clans' take on society - they have the coolest toys, bar absolutely none.

in the real world advances in military technology trickled down into civlian uses imagine what medical advances were made to sustaine the warrior caste that could trickle down into the lower caste.... there are things about vat grown replacement limbs.... of course warriors probably get the first pick at the high tech medical care but some of it has to trickle down into civlian society especially for the clans that treat thier laborer caste better....

[Void Angel]

1453 R, on 17 July 2025 - 03:56 PM, said:

I mean, a lot of the same arguments could be made about the Great Houses, heh. They're also all military-first cultures one way or another, and none of them showed any real will to expand outwards through the Periphery and into uncharted space rather than carving bloody chunks off each other and passing around border worlds. The Successor States didn't bother with exploration or rebuilding either, unless it was exploring lost worlds that might have weapons on them, or rebuilding weapons factories.

Now, I am personally of the opinion that Ol' Nickyboi was an absolute ****** who poisoned the Clans and sent them on a path to madness due to his Jupiter-sized inferiority complex when compared to Papa Alexander, heh. But I also feel like that tipping point of "invade or forever admit that we are free food for the Successor States" was coming up real soon. Should they have invaded? In the end, seems like nah! Except for the Clans that ended up freed by the invasion and became much better societies overall for it. If I hadda pick a society to live amongst in the IlClan era of BattleTech, it would be the Sea Foxes, hands down.

But regardless, I can see why they did invade, and we have numerous examples throughout history of cultures being led astray by absolute wanklord leaders before ending up as better versions of themselves after a good drubbing. I hear Germany's a pretty great place these days, as the obvious example. Heh...and say what one will about the Clans' take on society - they have the coolest toys, bar absolutely none.

The Great Houses were militant, but the only military dictatorship was Kurita, but even their entire society wasn't entirely geared toward supporting a warrior caste, and people had a lot more rights in practice than the Clan non-warriors. Another way the Clans are fascist is their idea of people having worth only in the context of supporting the state.

Could the Clans have been subject to invasion and conquest by the Inner Sphere if Showers hadn't triggered an invasion? That's an interesting idea, though I'm not sure how probable the risk was in practice - Comstar had no idea what happened to Outbound Light, and the expedition did not have a set itinerary for investigators to retrace. But I do think it very probable that the reason the Clans were subject to that risk was that Nicky-boy's fascist system prevented them from doing the exploration (and growing the population) necessary to expand.

Clan culture was also stagnant, locked into a ritualistic tribalism mediated by censorship so strict that most Clans reverted to oral histories because the actual historical records were forbidden to all but the highest levels. The only innovation the Clans ever produced, prior to their invasion and contact with civilized space, was the OmniMech. Literally everything else they had was just better Star League tech. Better Endo-Steel, better lasers, better ECM, etc. Once they got bashed around a bit, they started to branch out and make stuff that was different, but they had one (1) true technical innovation in the better part of three centuries. I stopped following tabletop just before ProtoMechs came out (I just didn't have a player group, so why buy the books,) so I'm not terribly conversant with the later story/game developments - but the only way the Clan system could actually result in a decent society is if it stopped being the Clan system in fundamental ways. A lot of the trappings could survive, but as long as the Warrior Caste is exclusively calling the shots and any decision can be overruled by force, there's no way that such a culture could maintain civil rights for non-Warriors.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Void Angel, on 18 July 2025 - 08:13 AM, said:

The Great Houses were militant, but the only military dictatorship was Kurita, but even their entire society wasn't entirely geared toward supporting a warrior caste, and people had a lot more rights in practice than the Clan non-warriors. Another way the Clans are fascist is their idea of people having worth only in the context of supporting the state.

When the source material goes against what you say and you don't have a leg to stand on, you ignore the guy who uses the source material and go on a nonsensical rant. I don't have to run and hide because I have the source material.

Whether or not a Great House was defined as military dictatorship that didn't stop them from committing atrocities and slaughtering innocent civilians and non-combatants. I laid all that out using the source material to confirm it so what you say doesn't matter. You say their entire society wasn't geared toward supporting a warrior caste. The Inner Sphere didn't have a caste system similar to the Clans but they did have hierarchy and the entire society was geared towards supporting that hierarchy which for the record was not peaceful.

Outworlds Alliance

Quote

The Outworlds Alliance came into existence almost by accident when Julius Santiago Avellar, a junior officer in the Davion military, resigned his commission in disgust at the horrors of never-ending warfare. In 2413, he retired to the then-independent colony world of Alpheratz. From there, he began a war of words against Inner Sphere military adventurism, with particularly sharp criticism for Houses Davion and Kurita. His writings touched a nerve among citizens of the Federated Suns who had wearied of battle and of the military-industrial complex that supported it.

Handbook - Major Periphery States pg. 15

What you say doesn't matter, the source material does.

Void Angel, on 18 July 2025 - 08:13 AM, said:

Could the Clans have been subject to invasion and conquest by the Inner Sphere if Showers hadn't triggered an invasion? That's an interesting idea, though I'm not sure how probable the risk was in practice - Comstar had no idea what happened to Outbound Light, and the expedition did not have a set itinerary for investigators to retrace. But I do think it very probable that the reason the Clans were subject to that risk was that Nicky-boy's fascist system prevented them from doing the exploration (and growing the population) necessary to expand.

And the Clans would have no idea how probable it was or not. The fact that Leo Showers used the incident to get what he wanted underscores the incident itself. The reason it tipped the scales because using a "what if" scenario, worked. What if that ship was just a scout and there were more ships to come? What if this is the vanguard of an invasion fleet? How were they to know otherwise? Remember the Dragoons had switched sides and had stopped sending intelligence reports back to the Clans. How were they to know? Which is why after being locked up politically by the Wardens for so long, the Outbound Light gave the Crusaders what they wanted because it made everyone think perhaps they ARE coming to invade us, so we should hit them instead.

What you say doesn't matter, the source material does.

Void Angel, on 18 July 2025 - 08:13 AM, said:

Clan culture was also stagnant

You want to talk about stagnant? Only a Kurita can rule the DC. Only a Marik can rule the FWL. Only a Steiner can rule the Lyran Commonwealth. Only a Davion can rule the FedSuns and only a Liao can rule the Capellans. The people are ruled by someone who never EARNED anything. They just got popped out and became the heir. in the Clans you had to earn EVERYTHING. Your rank, your titles, even your last name. There are no heirs in the Clans.

With new people coming in at the top, each Clan would get someone new with a fresh perspective and outlook on things. It also showed how flexible the Clans were. Nadia Winson was a Wolf Warrior who became the Khan of Clan Ghost Bear. Jake Kabrinski was Ghost Bear warrior who became Khan of the Hell's Horses. You think a Kurita could ever be in a leadership position in the FWL or the CC?

Void Angel, on 18 July 2025 - 08:13 AM, said:

The only innovation the Clans ever produced, prior to their invasion and contact with civilized space, was the OmniMech. Literally everything else they had was just better Star League tech. Better Endo-Steel, better lasers, better ECM, etc.

BS.

Field Manual - Warden Clans pg. 59

Spoiler

Spoiler

Field Manual - Warden Clans pg. 59

In terms of molecular and chemical engineering:

Spoiler

The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky Pg. 68

I'll stick with the source material. Have a nice day.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 18 July 2025 - 01:15 PM.

[KursedVixen]

uhh i'm pretty sure the iron womb was a Star leauge tech invention (or based on it), due to the inhospitable nature of the clan homeworlds, moral and social boundaries preventing thier use were lifted.... correct me if i'm wrong on that.

Edited by KursedVixen, 18 July 2025 - 12:28 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

It seems the initial technology was used as a life support system. The Clans developed it for artificial breeding. I could debate it but it's not worth the effort. I'll concede the point and edit the earlier entry. Thanks, I can't remember everything all the time.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 18 July 2025 - 01:11 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Jaroth Corbett, on 18 July 2025 - 01:01 PM, said:

It seems the initial technology was used as a life support system. The Clans developed it for artificial breeding. I could debate it but it's not worth the effort. I'll concede the point and edit the earlier entry. Thanks, I can't remember everything all the time.

Not really here to debate it... i just wonder if the clans are able to reproduce the tech...

but on the side note clans we're hardly stagnent hell horses did make the Hyper gauss based on heavy gauss tech Rotary autocannons and Quadvees a totally unique design somewhat based on Land Air mechs but much more sucessful... Ferro Lamalor armor. I'm sure that if x-pulse actually acted like they do in MWO the clan beam laser would be developed eventually, along with medium and small or even micro versions of course as far as clan innovation we cannot ignore Protomechs... if ther is one thing clan warriors hate is having inferior weapons... on that same note we cannot forget the many mechs produced after the invasion like the arctic wolf, Warwolf and other mechs... When your at the top of the tech tree, you have little reason to continue developing things... the clans distates of waste probly doesn't help them innovate too much either

Edited by KursedVixen, 18 July 2025 - 01:54 PM.

[Duke Falcon]

Just let the Clans being Clans and conquer the Inner Sphere! They would be better rulers any time than Katrina Steiner...
< may or may not been sarcasm >

And do not blame always the poor Jags... Malvina Hazen were morefold worse than little smokey kitties...

Oh, hey! Let's vote best rulers of BT-verse!
Contenders:
Romano Liao
Katrina Steiner
Malvina Hazen
Myndo Waterly
Donald Trump
Mary Sue

Among the voters we randomly raffle a whatever what may or may not include whaddafakk...

Sorry, I just tired again... My bad!