805 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

Duke Falcon, on 19 July 2025 - 10:02 AM, said:

Just let the Clans being Clans and conquer the Inner Sphere! They would be better rulers any time than Katrina Steiner...
< may or may not been sarcasm >

And do not blame always the poor Jags... Malvina Hazen were morefold worse than little smokey kitties...

Oh, hey! Let's vote best rulers of BT-verse!
Contenders:
Romano Liao
Katrina Steiner
Malvina Hazen
Myndo Waterly
Donald Trump
Mary Sue

Among the voters we randomly raffle a whatever what may or may not include whaddafakk...

Sorry, I just tired again... My bad!

that comment had very little to relate to anything said in this topic nor was it on topic much at all...

Everbody dislike the clans ,but nobody sees the real villan Comstar. Comstar's mistake pushed the invasion from a stalemate to actually happening, Comstar let the Sucession wars happened, Comstar gave house Kurita mechs and star league tech to create the Rasalhauge Republic, further split up the sphere, Comstar probably instigated the fedcom civil war, Comstar saved the inner sphere from the clans invading anymore, NOT the Inner sphere.

And Only when Comstar learned that the clans wanted Terra did they do anything ,before that they were perfectly fine with letting the clans conquer even aiding them after they did.

Comstars meddling caused alot of problems and they didn't give a crap about the sphere as long as they could push their agenda rule Terra and charge taxes on intersteller communications via the HPG network...

Edited by KursedVixen, 19 July 2025 - 12:07 PM.

[Void Angel]

Oh, Comstar is definitely a villain, and anyone who knows the setting realizes it. Even just the surface identity as techno-mystical cultists is offputting, but whenever you get into details, it's not pretty. One of the earliest Mechwarrior campaign modules, "Null Set," features the player characters being framed - by Comstar - for the destruction of an HPG station. You even left out the biggest part - Comstar is the reason the Inner Sphere is so far behind the Clans in technology. The covert operations arm of ROM, their security apparatus, engaged in a centuries-long campaign of sabotage and outright murder in order to prevent anyone from recovering to Star League levels of technology - as well as deliberately exacerbating the original technological fall. ROM murdered over 300 of the brightest minds in the Inner Sphere during the Second Succession War alone! They didn't continue any of that research - oh, no, why bother to make new tech that you then have to conceal - but they were murderously determined to maintain their stranglehold over communications and knowledge.

[Jaroth Corbett]

He's still evading me.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

1453 R, on 17 July 2025 - 12:08 PM, said:

In fairness - and from what I've seen of the &quot;argument&quot; from this guy, it's more fairness than they deserve - the Clans did not decide on a lark out of nowhere to invade the Inner Sphere specifically and solely to kick over sandcastles. The Outbound Light managed to poke the mother of all hornet's nests, and one of the key fears Leo Showers used to kick Operation REVIVAL over the finish line was the idea that ComStar was close to discovering the Exodus Road and the location of the Clans, enabling the Inner Sphere to strike first.

Which, knowing the Inner Sphere...was not even slightly an unfounded worry. Tell all the Great Houses that a group of extremely resource-poor people scattered across a tiny handful of planets who nevertheless possess a level of technological sophistication that put even the height of the Star League to shame, and it would have been an instant race to see who could follow the Exodus Road and snaffle up all the tasty morsels first. It was less &quot;hey let's go kick over the Inner Sphere, it'll be fun!&quot; and more &quot;the endless barbarian hordes are only a few decades away at most from finding their way to our gates, and our only chance of forestalling it is to hit them first and win before they can trace us back to our homes.&quot;

Given what happened to Clan Smoked Hamguar, turned out to be a very reasonable fear, even if CSJ very much brought it on themselves.

The Clans were absolutely the aggressors, and they earned what became of them. CSJ's brutality earned it Annihilation, while the more lenient and adaptable Clans eventually became important fixtures in the Inner Sphere (Rasalhague Dominion is objectively badass, the Sea Foxes are great fun, and eventually the Wolves actually won Operation REVIVAL). But the lore does lay out reasons behind Operation REVIVAL that are not entirely unreasonable and without merit.

Did Big Man Leo manipulate the situation unfairly and push for an invasion that proooooolly shouldn't have happened? Absolutely. He also got what he deserved in the form of an aerospace fighter to his entire face, heh. But the idea of ComStar blowing the whistle on the Clans, or otherwise causing the Clans' downfall when the secret of the Exodus Road was finally uncovered, is far from implausible. Pre-Focht ComStar were just as evil and insane as the most Crusader-est of Crusader Clans, after all, and that's the ComStar Jaime Wolf's reports would've painted for the Clans.

Given an insurmountable advantage in combat technology and an equally insurmountable deficit in manpower? A blitzkrieg-style mad rush for Terra to seize the world and dictate terms is probably the best plan they could've honestly hoped for to try and preserve their Home cluster. It made the most of the Clans' advantages and minimized their manpower weakness as much as could be managed. And frankly it probably would have worked if ComStar hadn't done ComStar Things. people forget that the Clans got pretty damn close before ComStar realized what the game was, and it was only the Com Guards emerging from literally nowhere with scads of Star League tech and months of inside information from ComStar &quot;advisers&quot; to the Clan war machine that allowed Space AT&amp;T to forestall the invasion and give the Great Houses time to peel their faces off their hind ends and figure out what the hell was happening.

Ended up working out very poorly for the Clans, of course. That whole Wars of Reaving thing mega sucked for literally everyone involved, heh. But the lore paints a picture of Operation REVIVAL being...reasonable, if not necessarily truly justified. And hey - was worth a shot, quiaff?

So the thing about the Outbound Light's mission is that it would have been practically impossible for the Great Houses to retrace its path to Huntress and the Exodus Road. It would have arguably been difficult for Comstar itself unless CSJ sent them on their way with a thumbs up and a treasure map, and the interrogation + scouring the Outbound Light's data would have revealed as much. It was not a 100 percent unfounded fear that ANOTHER Outbound Light-type mission would come along, however.

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 20 July 2025 - 04:39 AM, said:

Oh, Comstar is definitely a villain, and anyone who knows the setting realizes it. Even just the surface identity as techno-mystical cultists is offputting, but whenever you get into details, it's not pretty. One of the earliest Mechwarrior campaign modules, "Null Set," features the player characters being framed - by Comstar - for the destruction of an HPG station. You even left out the biggest part - Comstar is the reason the Inner Sphere is so far behind the Clans in technology. The covert operations arm of ROM, their security apparatus, engaged in a centuries-long campaign of sabotage and outright murder in order to prevent anyone from recovering to Star League levels of technology - as well as deliberately exacerbating the original technological fall. ROM murdered over 300 of the brightest minds in the Inner Sphere during the Second Succession War alone! They didn't continue any of that research - oh, no, why bother to make new tech that you then have to conceal - but they were murderously determined to maintain their stranglehold over communications and knowledge.

So not only did they inadvertantly start the clan invasion they also helped it go as far as it did.. by not only helping the clans but also by holding back the inner spehre technology wise and then we get to, The Word...

And after all that Clan wolf turns full crusader, conquers Terra and becomes the illclan Seafox takes over teh HPG. all because of Katherine Stienier's trueborn son, I wonder how much comstar meddeling was in that one... as far as Katherine making herself a trueborn son from her and Victor's DNA....

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 July 2025 - 09:19 AM.

[Void Angel]

Which is just plain icky, when you think about it - narcissism and ******, what a gal! But while Comstar's got a lot to answer for, I don't think we can pin everything on them, or Katherine, being the real villains behind it all.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

Void Angel, on 20 July 2025 - 09:49 AM, said:

Which is just plain icky, when you think about it - narcissism and ******, what a gal! But while Comstar's got a lot to answer for, I don't think we can pin everything on them, or Katherine, being the real villains behind it all.

Basically all CSJ needed to do if they were concerned about a major incursion by ComStar or the Great Houses by proxy was to eliminate the ComStar crews, destroy their materiel after securely disposing of any compromising data and basically put out an APB from the ilKhan saying "You see these a$$holes, you shoot on sight. Do not observe zellbrigen, do not allow them to get communications out, all battleroms to be brought to council as confirmation. Treat them like pirates or bandits."

Of course that isn't how it all works because that was not what Showers was ultimately in it for.

[KursedVixen]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 20 July 2025 - 10:13 AM, said:

Basically all CSJ needed to do if they were concerned about a major incursion by ComStar or the Great Houses by proxy was to eliminate the ComStar crews, destroy their materiel after securely disposing of any compromising data and basically put out an APB from the ilKhan saying "You see these a$$holes, you shoot on sight. Do not observe zellbrigen, do not allow them to get communications out, all battleroms to be brought to council as confirmation. Treat them like pirates or bandits."

Of course that isn't how it all works because that was not what Showers was ultimately in it for.

you totally ignore the politics of the clans at that time.

At the time debates had been going about starting the invasion the Wardens had been holding it at a stalemate for years, Osis found a way to break that stalemate and give the Crusaders the clans hungry for conquest a way to break that Stalemate... he didn't really care if the inner sphere was going to invade them or not he wanted a way to push the invasion debate in his sides favor.

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 July 2025 - 10:52 AM.

[Void Angel]

Well, the only way for an incursion to get communications out would be to escape back to the Inner Sphere. As for the rest, I'm not entirely sure about that. If the Inner Sphere was really poised to invade the Clan Homeworlds, the Clans might have been ground down by attrition. Their tech was much better than the Inner Sphere, and they had WarShips - but their worlds are generally resource-poor and sparsely developed by Inner Sphere standards. If a united Inner Sphere came after the Clans, the Adjective Animals might be in some trouble.

On the other end, WarShips are an immense advantage over the combat DropShips fielded by the Inner Sphere, and a WarShip or combat space station parked by the standard Jump Point would be hard to get past intact. Additionally, while the Invader Clans were the most powerful of the Space Mongols, there were still a LOT more Clans back in Clan space - all of them dedicated to military power above all else, and all of them able to survive in the Clan system of acquisition by combat.

But while a general invasion of the Clan homeworlds might have gone badly for the Inner Sphere, they'd still be better able to replace losses than the Clans in the long run - and more importantly, it would pen the Clans into their own space while allowing the Inner Sphere to work on closing the tech gap and upgrading their militaries.

So I still think that if the Clans were legitimately worried about being invaded - but not actively looking for an excuse to invade, themselves - they'd still need to mop up the various Periphery worlds and realms that lay between themselves and their homeworlds. That would both deny staging systems to the Inner Sphere, and give the Clans fully habitable worlds whose industrial bases they could upgrade, and use to beef up their population and replace military losses. It would have worked - they mopped up the Oberon Confederation, etc. without the Inner Sphere really noticing. After all, if a few Periphery bandit kingdoms went silent, so what? Even the major Periphery realms were remote enough that their silence was only a curiosity.

The trick would have been doing all that in such a way that some Clans didn't get jealous or feel threatened, then set off a round of in-fighting.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

KursedVixen, on 20 July 2025 - 10:33 AM, said:

you totally ignore the politics of the clans at that time.

Those very politics are why CSJ launched the invasion and the other Clans continued it even after it was clear as day that the Spheroids were in no position to invade their homeworlds. A proactive defense of the homeworlds was a flimsy pretext and once they were in the Sphere roflstomping they stopped pretending altogether. It was a race to conquer Terra. They were a bigger threat to one another than ComStar or the Great Houses were to them.

As predatory and evil as ComStar is/was they likely would have had to fall back on keeping the Clans away from the Inner Sphere by hook or crook in the unlikely event they had not gotten waylaid. ComStar maintains a sizable force of SLDF-tier materiel but moving enough out there in a rapid enough fashion to threaten the Clans without raising eyebrows amongst the Houses at some point was simply not going to happen. The logistics of that kind of invasion are a nightmare the Clans got to experience. Information warfare and such are more ComStar's forte anyhow.

Edited by a 5 year old with an Uzi, 20 July 2025 - 11:34 AM.

[KursedVixen]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 20 July 2025 - 10:48 AM, said:

Those very politics are why CSJ launched the invasion and the other Clans continued it even after it was clear as day that the Spheroids were in no position to invade their homeworlds. A proactive defense of the homeworlds was a flimsy pretext and once they were in the Sphere roflstomping they stopped pretending altogether. It was a race to conquer Terra. They were a bigger threat to one another than ComStar or the Great Houses were to them.

As predatory and evil as ComStar is/was they likely would have had to fall back on keeping the Clans away from the Inner Sphere by hook or crook in the unlikely event they had not gotten waylaid. ComStar maintains a sizable force of SLDF-tier materiel but moving enough out there in a rapid enough fashion to threaten the Clans without raising eyebrows amongst the Houses at some point was simply not going to happen. The logistics of that kind of invasion are a nightmare the Clans got to experience. Information warfare and such are more ComStar's forte anyhow.

again you totally ignore clan politics CSJ did nothing about the invasion but push for it and participate in in they did not start the invasion, the Grand council was pushed by CSJ's lies about the Outbound Light, to approve of the invasion. You also forget that Comstar was actually helping the clans conquer untill Ulric Kerensky told them "Hey you know that planet you control, Terra, We want that..." Clans and Comstar were pretty much allies during the invasion. if you played mw5 clans you'd probably know this.... as comstar is seen assisting clans.

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 July 2025 - 01:10 PM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

KursedVixen, on 20 July 2025 - 01:08 PM, said:

again you totally ignore clan politics CSJ did nothing about the invasion but push for it and participate in in they did not start the invasion, the Grand council was pushed by CSJ's lies about the Outbound Light, to approve of the invasion. You also forget that Comstar was actually helping the clans conquer untill Ulric Kerensky told them &quot;Hey you know that planet you control, Terra, We want that...&quot; Clans and Comstar were pretty much allies during the invasion. if you played mw5 clans you'd probably know this.... as comstar is seen assisting clans.

ComStar's part in it is indisputable (and unsurprising especially with Waterly) but CSJ absolutely started the invasion from the capture of the Outbound Light, to the council vote, to Showers being made ilKhan and planning the invasion.

[KursedVixen]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 20 July 2025 - 06:17 PM, said:

ComStar's part in it is indisputable (and unsurprising especially with Waterly) but CSJ absolutely started the invasion from the capture of the Outbound Light, to the council vote, to Showers being made ilKhan and planning the invasion.

If CSJ started the invasion they'd be the only clan invading... again you ignore the poltics CSJ did not start the invasion the Grand council did after CSJ's lies about the Outbound Light swayed the vote in favor of invading...

Are the American people the ones who dropped the nuclear bombs on Japan?

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 21 July 2025 - 02:49 AM, said:

If CSJ started the invasion they'd be the only clan invading... again you ignore the poltics CSJ did not start the invasion the Grand council did after CSJ's lies about the Outbound Light swayed the vote in favor of invading... Are the American people the ones who dropped the nuclear bombs on Japan?

Incorrect; Leo Showers' deception was the primary cause of the invasion - so yes, Clan Smoke Jaguar, under Leo Showers, did start the Clan Invasion. That is literally a fact of history in-universe. They, as part of the Grand Council, lied to the other Clans and started the war.

As for the point you seem to be trying to make with the atom bombs, you're conflating societies with nations. The name Smoke Jaguar can refer both to a subculture within the greater Clan society, and to the nation-state (Clan) within that society. You're using the former sense when you ought to be using the latter. So whether "the American people" dropped the bombs is a philosophical debate about the extent of collective responsibility for the acts of leadership.. but America, definitely did drop the bombs - not the Allied Powers. Similarly, the Grand Council (i.e. the entire Clan leadership) didn't start the invasion under false pretenses: Leo Showers and his Smoke Jaguars did.

If Showers hadn't lied his little whiskers off about Outbound Light, and just given the Clans the truth, they wouldn't bear primary responsibility for the invasion (had it occurred.) But since he did, they do. Remember, Leo didn't torture, mindwipe, and dispose of the crew of Outbound Light personally - numerous Smoke Jaguars did that, and thus knew the truth, and did nothing. Again, how much an individual rank-and-file jackboot Warrior is "responsible" for that is a philosophical debate. But when you organize to take collective action (like a nation-state or a Clan,) that organization is responsible for the actions it takes - the Smoke Jaguars started the Clan Invasion.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

You do start to get into Nuremberg Defense questions in these scenarios, although warriors in a Crusader-aligned Clan and even some in a Warden-aligned (the Wolves had a notable contingent of Crusader minded Warriors such as Vlad Ward) would unquestioningly participate in an invasion due to unflinching obedience to command structure and thirst for glory.

[1453 R]

People are quick to forget it due to the laughably nonsensical idea of a Trial of Refusal being able to overturn anything (and yes, I'm aware that a Trial of Refusal can in fact overturn anything, and this idea is what is laughable), but outside of a Trial of Refusal orders are very much still orders. The Clan military takes as dim a view of breaking or disobeying orders as any other military does, and if you disobey orders without immediately declaring a Trial of Refusal over those orders you're in for some brutal punishment.

Even then, as I recall there are times during Clan operations where warriors cannot issue Trials of Refusal, in much the same way that pirate warships of old did not allow crew to try and ouster/replace their captain mid-firefight - while a pirate crew could normally call their captain to trial basically whenever, this was NOT the case during a crisis where the captain was to be obeyed because leading during crises was his actual-*** job.

Unrelated: ComStar's desire was for, as Caesar put it so eloquently in New Vegas, "long-term stability at any cost." Their imposed technological stasis was quite deliberate and carefully controlled, but they also sought to control and steer information and decision-making such that the Great Houses would be content with eternal low-intensity border scuffles and settle into a pattern of being more-or-less content with their lot. Part of this is because ComStar were a bunch of evil whackadoodle techno-cultists with some excessively weird ideas (see: Word of Blake), and part of it was because ComStar watched the Great Houses burn the Inner Sphere in nuclear fire for two whole Succession Wars and decided these screaming ******** could not be trusted with anything more destructive or technologically complex than a socket wrench, and there's an argument they weren't really wrong.

The emergence of the Federated Commonwealth and the growing idea amongst the Inner Sphere that Hanse was closing in on the final endgame and laying a claim to the throne of the First Lord that the others couldn't refute scared Comstar spitless. The endless manufacturing capacity and wealth of the Lyran Commonwealth mated to the peerless military capabilities and leadership of the Federated Suns had everyone convinced that Hanse was only a few more moves away from actually pulling it off...and then ComStar was handed a batch of hyperaggressive ultra-tech Space Weirdoes they could use to shatter that alliance and reset the clock on the First Lordship with. It must have felt like ol' Jerome reaching through time to answer Waterly's prayers in specific. The timing of the Invasion really couldn't possibly have been better by ComStar's standards.

And really - they weren't wrong. The Invasion broke Hanse's momentum and prevented the Federated Commonwealth from claiming anything further, and it was Victor participating in Operation Bulldog that gave Katrina the opening and leverage she needed to pry the Federated Commonwealth back apart into the Suns and the Lyran Alliance. Restoring the status quo that ComStar had been working to impose for three hundred years in the doing and forever sundering the idea of a true Second Star League.

Shame, that.

[Jaroth Corbett]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 20 July 2025 - 10:48 AM, said:

Those very politics are why CSJ launched the invasion and the other Clans continued it even after it was clear as day that the Spheroids were in no position to invade their homeworlds. A proactive defense of the homeworlds was a flimsy pretext and once they were in the Sphere roflstomping they stopped pretending altogether. It was a race to conquer Terra. They were a bigger threat to one another than ComStar or the Great Houses were to them.

As predatory and evil as ComStar is/was they likely would have had to fall back on keeping the Clans away from the Inner Sphere by hook or crook in the unlikely event they had not gotten waylaid. ComStar maintains a sizable force of SLDF-tier materiel but moving enough out there in a rapid enough fashion to threaten the Clans without raising eyebrows amongst the Houses at some point was simply not going to happen. The logistics of that kind of invasion are a nightmare the Clans got to experience. Information warfare and such are more ComStar's forte anyhow.

CSJ did not start the invasion and the other Clans joined in. CSJ didn't launch their touman into the Inner Sphere and the other Clans said "oh why should they have all the fun. let's join in." It did NOT happen like that. As I stated before and both you and void can evade all you like, the SOURCE MATERIAL is what matters.

Sure Leo Showers was ambitious and used it for his own gain but the points stands. The Wardens had the Crusaders locked up for DECADES. That is a matter of FACT. in 2980 the Crusader movement gained enough traction that a formal vote for invasion was put on the table and was UNSUCCESSFUL. When they tried again in 3000, the Wardens got them to compromise by sending the Dragoons. The matter was still deadlocked UNTIL the Outbound Light's appearance. THAT is what tipped the scales. Again it's a matter of record. You can argue until you are blue in the face, that's what the SOURCE MATERIAL says and since they are the people who created the BTU, I'll go with them.

The fact remains that the Dragoons switched sides and had stopped sending in updates. According to The Clans: Warriors of Kerenesky pg. 17, "The capture of the ComStar crew gave the ambitious Jaguar Khan the first solid information on the Inner Sphere in decades. Armed with it, he forced the Grand Council to vote on the long-postponed invasion."

It continues on pg.17 into pg. 18, "Faced with the prospect of Inner Sphere vessels discovering the location of the Clan homeworlds, and the very real prospect of an Inner Sphere dominated by the technologically advanced Federated Commonwealth, the Clans had little option. On 21 November, 3048, they voted to invade the Inner Sphere."

The Dragoons stopped transmitting back to the Clans around 3019 so they wouldn't have known that the Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth would have merged into a "super" Great House. Invasion was OFF the table since 3000 when the compromise was accepted and it got voted down back in 2980. There was a stalemate UNTIL the appearance of the Outbound Light.

THAT event is what kicked things off and EVEN then, the most Showers could have gotten from it was not a blanket, "LET'S GO GET 'EM!", it was forcing the motion (the vote) back on the table and in light of the vessel breaching Clan space, not even the Wardens could be against invasion and ALL the Clans except Clan Wolf VOTED for invasion.

So in conclusion, if there was no Outbound Light, there would have been no invasion. The stalemate would have continued.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 21 July 2025 - 06:52 AM.

[1453 R]

"Clan Smoke Jaguar led the rest of the Clans around by the nose and orchestrated events such that a stalemate they found odious was broken and they were allowed to ravage the Inner Sphere freely" is both an accurate summation of what occurred and the reason why Clan Smoke Jaguar was responsible for the final decision to invade.

Might the Clans have never invaded at all had Leo Showers not been a buttmonkey? Possibly. Might the stalemate have broken in favor of invasion in another way, later? Also possibly. We will never know. Events as they happened, however, make it quite clear that leo Showers' duplicity was what finally sparked Operation REVIVAL, and that means the Invasion is his personal fault. And as he was acting as the head and voice of Clan Smoke Jaguar at the time and using the Clans' resources as his own to pursue a goal the majority of his Clan shared, his Clan gets to share his culpability.

You can try and deflect onto the Grand Council all you like, but it really doesn't work that way.

[KursedVixen]

1453 R, on 21 July 2025 - 07:54 AM, said:

"Clan Smoke Jaguar led the rest of the Clans around by the nose and orchestrated events such that a stalemate they found odious was broken and they were allowed to ravage the Inner Sphere freely" is both an accurate summation of what occurred and the reason why Clan Smoke Jaguar was responsible for the final decision to invade.

Might the Clans have never invaded at all had Leo Showers not been a buttmonkey? Possibly. Might the stalemate have broken in favor of invasion in another way, later? Also possibly. We will never know. Events as they happened, however, make it quite clear that leo Showers' duplicity was what finally sparked Operation REVIVAL, and that means the Invasion is his personal fault. And as he was acting as the head and voice of Clan Smoke Jaguar at the time and using the Clans' resources as his own to pursue a goal the majority of his Clan shared, his Clan gets to share his culpability.

You can try and deflect onto the Grand Council all you like, but it really doesn't work that way.

Actually it does because that is what the source material says, unless you want to say you made up your own source material... Just because you wrote a story about how Kirk died before becoming captain of the Enterprise does not make your little story is source material or cannon to the lore...

Edited by KursedVixen, 21 July 2025 - 08:58 AM.

[1453 R]

It is such a bizarre stance to take, this idea that "The Grand Council voted to invade therefore the invasion isn't the Clans' fault, nor is CSJ any more responsible than anyone else even though the only reason the vote happened at all and the only reason it won by a landslide was because Clan Smoke jaguar's Khan lied his teats off about everything involved and orchestrated the whole thing."

Like...do you guys not believe Leo Showers suppressed the Outbound Light incident, then used selective reporting to terrify the rest of the Homeworld Clans into invading to his tune? Because that's what the "Source Material" says happened. What 'Source Material' are you referencing where these events that clearly and documentably happened did not actually happen?