805 replies to this topic

[Duke Falcon]

Void Angel, on 22 July 2025 - 02:03 PM, said:

Showers did more than twist the truth - he outright lied. He conducted horrific, destructive interrogation involving torture and psychoactive drugs (so much for protecting civilians,) and he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Inner Sphere had no idea the Clans existed, and no way to trace the Path of Outbound Light. Yet he told the Council that hordes of Inner Sphere barbarians now knew where they lived, so the Clans had to Act Now. That is far beyond twisting the truth.

Needing to do something about the Inner Sphere and engaging in an unprovoked invasion out of the night are not synonymous. The Clans could have quietly colonized the Periphery realms and created a bulwark, for example. Better yet, they might have actually worked at improving their own worlds and exploring their corner of space. But doing the actual work to explore and colonize the worlds around them would never do for the Clans: it would be hard, and boring, with no glorious battle to be had - and the Clan system of ritual theft by combat would have made colonization a bad gamble for whatever Clan tried it.

So it might be true that the Clans "had" to invade the Inner Sphere - but only because the alternative would have required the Clans' fascist warrior culture to change, and they'd rather die. Actually, they'd rather you died.

I think the Clans did colonise new worlds. Waged Trials for those. But as far as I know (Corbett may could correct me) whole worlds not really switched owners. Clans among themselves seize certain locations or portions of a world and not the whole world. Maybe they has some regulations about that. In the Inner Sphere it were different, they seized whole worlds even from each others.
And colonising the Periphery? It were already full of things the Clans disliked: pirates, corsairs and spheroid barbarians. I guess. And their colonisation efforts were limited because, if I remember well, they were lead into a well separated part of space. Kerensky brought them in the middle of nowhere. For good reasons, as Alexandr were not a ******* sociopath like his heir Nicholai...

Showers outright lied... Politics, remember? Mankind fabricated methods and dubbed them to outright lie to each others: Politics, diplomacy, merchantise, marriage, poker, pick one!
Daddy Leo wanted to reach a goal. He knew how politics work. And it worked. That's how countries elect their governments. Or kind of. Anyway, Showers lied, ja. As all the other Khans in the Council most of the times! Remember, this rite originated personally from Nicholai Kerensky: Clan Wolverine's case <= mild hint...

"Protecting civilians". Most Clans do that. Jags not. Jags not love their own people, they proved that a few times. All Clans their own cultural distinctiveness. Jags dislikes their lower castes. Blood Spirits grant military training for their lower castes. Wolves are wolves. Fire Mandrills... Skip the Mandrills, they outright damned lunatics.
And that case were of "intelligence". Intelligence agencies usually not ask nicely intels. No matter what caste you belongs. You tell what they want to know... Sooner or later in one form or shape or another.
That's not unique stuff. The Sphere commited that just like the ComStar. Intelligence knows no such things as "civil rights". They made for efficiency by any ways or means necessary.
Showers learned enough from those interrogations. He thought "now or never". He earned a premature invasion and died, followed by his Clan shortly after... Divine justice? No. Everyday life in mankind.

And jump from the source materials a bit! If not Showers then someone else! We agreed - I think - that a Clan invasion of the Inner Sphere were inevitable. The Crusaders started it in their manner. Failed? Yepp. If the Wardens start it under the "we come to protect you all" banner, would they prevail? Perhaps. Both factions wanted to dominate the Sphere just with different ways. Like Davros' daleks versus the Mentor's daleks: Both wanted to dominate the universe but one faction through bloody conquest while the other through peace-enforcing oppression. Both are conquest at the end.
I think the Warden way may would include all Clans. Honestly, the idea to launch an invasion by but four Clans is lunatic even by Crusader mindset. But that were necessary for the story how to save the poor Inner Sphere...

I think this topic now really needs some pancakes...

[Jaroth Corbett]

Duke Falcon, on 24 July 2025 - 11:16 AM, said:

I think the Clans did colonise new worlds. Waged Trials for those. But as far as I know (Corbett may could correct me) whole worlds not really switched owners. Clans among themselves seize certain locations or portions of a world and not the whole world. Maybe they has some regulations about that. In the Inner Sphere it were different, they seized whole worlds even from each others.

Well remember each Clan had it's own invasion corridor. Now in a few instances, those locations may have overlapped but that was not the case so much. As far as how worlds got switched, yes it was entire planets. This is confirmed in both the Jade Falcon and Wolf Sourcebooks. This however is not a totality in the sense that some worlds that were taken may still have resistance on it i.e guerilla fighters.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Now when the Clans returned after the Year of Peace, when the new Clans were assigned by Ulric to the invasion, worlds were given up as per Ulric's orders and IIRC there would have been Trials in between. (I'll have to verify that but I think it would have been a high probability as I believe the MW5: Clans recent DLC for the Ghost Bears shows Ulric saying that the new Clans would need to fight Trials against the Clans they are meeting in the IS)

Duke Falcon, on 24 July 2025 - 11:16 AM, said:

And colonising the Periphery? It were already full of things the Clans disliked: pirates, corsairs and spheroid barbarians. I guess. And their colonisation efforts were limited because, if I remember well, they were lead into a well separated part of space. Kerensky brought them in the middle of nowhere. For good reasons, as Alexandr were not a ******* sociopath like his heir Nicholai...

They didn't colonize the Periphery but they did conquer a huge portion of it. I can't put it into scale but it was a significant portion of space.

Duke Falcon, on 24 July 2025 - 11:16 AM, said:

Showers did more than twist the truth - he outright lied. He conducted horrific, destructive interrogation involving torture and psychoactive drugs (so much for protecting civilians,) and he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Inner Sphere had no idea the Clans existed, and no way to trace the Path of Outbound Light. Yet he told the Council that hordes of Inner Sphere barbarians now knew where they lived, so the Clans had to Act Now. That is far beyond twisting the truth.

Yeah I already conceded Showers twisted the event for his own personal gain. Not going to go into detail again.

Duke Falcon, on 24 July 2025 - 11:16 AM, said:

"Protecting civilians". Most Clans do that. Jags not. Jags not love their own people, they proved that a few times. All Clans their own cultural distinctiveness. Jags dislikes their lower castes. Blood Spirits grant military training for their lower castes. Wolves are wolves. Fire Mandrills... Skip the Mandrills, they outright damned lunatics.
And that case were of "intelligence". Intelligence agencies usually not ask nicely intels. No matter what caste you belongs. You tell what they want to know... Sooner or later in one form or shape or another.
That's not unique stuff. The Sphere commited that just like the ComStar. Intelligence knows no such things as "civil rights". They made for efficiency by any ways or means necessary.
Showers learned enough from those interrogations. He thought "now or never". He earned a premature invasion and died, followed by his Clan shortly after... Divine justice? No. Everyday life in mankind.

Well each Clan has its own identity and does things according to their individual mindset. They are all unique in their own way.

Duke Falcon, on 24 July 2025 - 11:16 AM, said:

And jump from the source materials a bit! If not Showers then someone else! We agreed - I think - that a Clan invasion of the Inner Sphere were inevitable. The Crusaders started it in their manner. Failed? Yepp. If the Wardens start it under the "we come to protect you all" banner, would they prevail? Perhaps. Both factions wanted to dominate the Sphere just with different ways. Like Davros' daleks versus the Mentor's daleks: Both wanted to dominate the universe but one faction through bloody conquest while the other through peace-enforcing oppression. Both are conquest at the end.
I think the Warden way may would include all Clans. Honestly, the idea to launch an invasion by but four Clans is lunatic even by Crusader mindset. But that were necessary for the story how to save the poor Inner Sphere...

The Wardens position was to protect the Inner Sphere from "external threats" but they never specified as to WHAT threats they meant.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 24 July 2025 - 12:45 PM.

[KursedVixen]

eventually all the invading clans were ousted from the clan homeworlds, as they were considered tainted, most retreated to the inner sphere becoming part of it of particular note Ghost bear form the ghost bear dominion in the former worlds of the Rasaulhauge republic, actually merging with their spheroid half. Clan Wolf was split in two the wolves-in-exile went to Arc-royal formed an alliance with the Kell hounds since their Khan Phelen Kell was the nephew of the Duke Morgan Kell, the last of Ulrics wishes were granted Phelen was given the blood name Kell. I'm not sure about the other sphere clans like Nova Cat, hell horses and Jade Falcon or Snow Raven and Seafox/Diamond Shark. Contact to the Clan homeworlds were severed as new politcal factions arose.

Warden and Crusaders still existed, i think but now we have Bastion

While the Wardens viewed themselves as the defenders of the Inner Sphere - even from other Clans - and the [/color]Crusaders espoused the conquest of the]Great Houses, the Bastions were staunch proponents of Clan isolationism. By 3090 the Star Adders enforced a strict quarantine upon the Clan Homeworlds; the only contact with tainted cultures permitted was authorized raids upon the

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 July 2025 - 01:05 PM.

[Upinya]

Because they are low T, IS trash?

[KursedVixen]

Upinya, on 24 July 2025 - 01:23 PM, said:

Because they are low T, IS trash?

Could you repeat that in proper English? without the modern slang?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Hey Vixen. As I was going through different books, I found this:

Quote

The role played by ComStar’s JumpShip Outbound Light and how it was used by the Clans to justify the invasion of the Inner Sphere is outside of the scope of this history, but the irony of it cannot be lost as one examines ComStar’s actions in the invasion itself.

That's in Era Report 3052 page 16

And in that same book,

Quote

It was decades before the Crusader camp would win the votes to invade, and the arrival of the Outbound Light was the catalyst.

It goes on to say:

Quote

Using the fear of an invasion by a united and corrupt Inner Sphere to galvanize the Grand Council, the Crusader warriors finally won enough of a majority to offset a Trial of Refusal by the Warden Khans of Clan Wolf.

That's page 42.

And Void Stillcoward says the source material isn't a trump card.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 26 July 2025 - 05:59 AM.

[KursedVixen]

I'm sorry I don't see how this says anything more than I've already said?

[Jaroth Corbett]

I just remember when you made the point about ComStar, certain people were opposing your observation. Not calling names or pointing any fingers. Just confirming your observation with MORE source material.

[KursedVixen]

Jaroth Corbett, on 26 July 2025 - 06:48 AM, said:

I just remember when you made the point about ComStar, certain people were opposing your observation. Not calling names or pointing any fingers. Just confirming your observation with MORE source material.

ok.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 22 July 2025 - 03:29 PM, said:

Hey Spheroids remember who helped you and what clan you specifically targeted??

Leo Showers' Smoke Jaguars, who started the unprovoked Clan Invasion of the Inner Sphere? Of course, Wolf's Dragoons helped the Inner Sphere fight off the Clans - after they gathered intelligence against them for years. That's like helping round people up for concentration camps so that you can help them escape later. Did the Wolves' leadership feel that it was the best they could do under the circumstances? Maybe; they were the only Clan that stood up to the Council with a Trial of Refusal for Operation REVIVAL. But it's still pretty morally grey when they could have done a lot more by just coming clean earlier to the top Inner Sphere leadership.

Edited by Void Angel, 27 July 2025 - 04:29 PM.

[Void Angel]

Duke Falcon, on 24 July 2025 - 11:16 AM, said:

And jump from the source materials a bit! If not Showers then someone else! We agreed - I think - that a Clan invasion of the Inner Sphere were inevitable. The Crusaders started it in their manner. Failed? Yepp. If the Wardens start it under the "we come to protect you all" banner, would they prevail? Perhaps. Both factions wanted to dominate the Sphere just with different ways. Like Davros' daleks versus the Mentor's daleks: Both wanted to dominate the universe but one faction through bloody conquest while the other through peace-enforcing oppression. Both are conquest at the end.

Wardens didn't want to invade - that was their whole thing. Wardens held that Kerensky had meant for the Exodus to preserve culture and stand ready to protect the Inner Sphere if some kind of extreme threat arose. In essence, they were to preserve Star League culture until the Inner Sphere recovered enough to again aspire to those ideals. But the Wardens were losing ground to the Crusaders, even in Clans that were controlled by Wardens. Fascism is like that: when you need an enemy to fight in order to justify your social order, the people who want to actually go fight the enemy tend to win out in the end - that's why an invasion of the Inner Sphere can be seen as inevitable. It might not have been, though; if Showers hadn't butchered and lobotomized the crew of Outbound Light and then lied to the Council, they might have delayed long enough for outright invasion to become unfeasible.

But we're not arguing whether the Clans would have invaded later - we're discussing why they did so, as part of a general discussion of why people dislike the fascist Space Mongols.
Vix and Jaroth are really, really dedicated to the lie that the Inner Sphere "was the aggressor," blaming the Inner Sphere's political turmoil not only for the invasion, but for the Clans' own cultural choices as well. This is patently silly, but this has not deterred them; they've glommed onto an equally silly argument that as long as they point to an "official source" like a novel or Technical Readout, they get to be right! Have the excerpts they quoted proved their claims? Emphatically no, but Jaroth in particular has got too much riding on being "right" to indulge in such luxuries as intellectual honesty.

Edited by Void Angel, 27 July 2025 - 05:18 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I keep saying Void Stillcoward has a comprehension problem. We never said the IS was THE aggressor, we simply said the Clans were not the ONLY aggressive entitiy and I have proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt using the source material by citing multiple examples. Again, you can't get mad at me for simply posting what the people who created the BTU made. I didn't write the novels or the sourcebooks. Void Stillcoward would argue Star Wars with George Lucas.

When all you can do is ignore the other person, you know you have a terrible position. Like I said before, make a better argument.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 27 July 2025 - 06:56 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 27 July 2025 - 04:34 PM, said:

Vix and Jaroth are really, really dedicated to the lie that the Inner Sphere "was the aggressor," blaming the Inner Sphere's political turmoil not only for the invasion, but for the Clans' own cultural choices as well. This is patently silly, but this has not deterred them; they've glommed onto an equally silly argument that as long as they point to an "official source" like a novel or Technical Readout, they get to be right! Have the excerpts they quoted proved their claims?

You know putting words in peoples mouths is rude?

If you look back in history of Battletech as the lore goes while there inner sphere was not the only one causing problems they are definitely the cause of the invasion, if you want to get that deep it's the inner sphere who caused the Star league exodus that would ultimately lead to the Clan invasion, so in essence if you really want to dig that deep the inner sphere are responsible for everything that happened, who through sheer stupidity or out right denial of their actions indirectly created the clans so in that matter yes the inner sphere is the cause to all that happened as they are wholly at fault for the exodus of the star league, the creation of the clans when those inner sphere rivalries surfaced again in the pentagon worlds and the invasion that would come later....

Meanwhile Comstar sat back and let it all happen even aiding it to some degree both the Succession wars and the clan invasion

Edited by KursedVixen, 27 July 2025 - 09:30 PM.

[Duke Falcon]

I am always amused how such topics progress!

I am not a master of lore. I read the sourcebooks in german (I can borrow only german edition as english edition were unavailable in my country back those days) and my german were always "schrecklish", so, yeah, vaguely understood them (got the picture what's going on, but the fine details?).

So, as much as I remember (could correct me if I am wrong!):
1. Mankind started to pollute space left trash everywhere... Sorry, started to colonise everything to loot later. Thanks for FTL travelling. Stellar governments formed, everyone loved each others... Or not.
2. Terra thought being cradle of mankind mandate them to be the God Emperor of... Sorry, that's Dune, my bad! Still, Terra wanted to rule them all! Wars started, people were less happy... Or they were, we talk about human beings literally love war...
3. Star League. Da Gold'n Age, bro! Big, happy family, united under a single banner. Or else got driven under that banner by the SLDF. You know, Peacekeepers. Keep the peace by the power of weapons. Anyway, Golden Age, advance in technology, colonisation, art, and porn in the Magistracy of Canopus. Pick your fav, noone judges apart from House Cameron. Wrong pick and the SLDF visit you to persuade you forfeit your heretic ways! Slaanesh's bewbs are lies!
...
Yes, the Star League. The big beginning of endless f**kery. Power in the SL is good, better and best 'cause supported by the iron fist of the SLDF. So, let's usurp it! <= famous quote from Stefan Amaris, just for educational purposes!
Kerensky, the big and bald Aleksandr, saw that Amaris were bad. Giga bad. Aizen bad. Badder than bad on the worst. So, let's wage war!
4. Kerensky vs Amaris freestyle match all across da Inna Sphere. Matchball scored by Kerensky. Guess what! Peace restored, everyone is happy, kumbaaaajaaa! NO! Evil lords of the different interstellar states all want to rule the Star League. Debates, debates and more debates with guns in the @*ses. Problem solving in human-style.
On the brink of disaster Kerensky decide to strip the f@glords from their best weapons. Took the toy from the child he thought. Not worked. He went into the Exodus => reason why the Clans exists? Not really...
C'mon! Kerensky's followers could be an interstellar Novaja Rossja or got lost in space forever. But that is another point!
5a. The Inner Sphere lost the bulk of trained soldiers and equipment. Solution? All out war! Let's destroy everything what remained, what could happen? Succession Wars. Bad guys versus bad girls (not THAT way) with atomics, orbital stuffs and massacres, usual happily commited war crimes. IS is bad! Just reread the previous sentence! IS is bad!
5b. Pentagon wars, nationalism, whatever you want. Aleksandr dies, Nicholai Kerensky inherit the uncivilsed part of space. A sociopath who create the Clans after his own violent vision. Old Nico is bad, or mad, just look what he engineered about Clan Wolverine! Clans are destined to restore the Star League. Once, somehow, noone defined them these two factors, let the Clans figured these out. Jade Falcon "Culling"? Yes, the same war crimes like in the IS just in smaller scale. Clans are bad!
Waaaait...
Are they? The Sux-essor States beat each others back to stone age. Limited warfare to preserve themselves from decline? Please, no! Clans on the other way? Let's limit warfare! Cool, less unnecessary destruction! Technology not decline but slightly progress. Are Clans the good guys? Well, no, just less bad than the Spheroid (save only the Combine because they are just way to cool to be bad guys!).
5c. ComStar... Skip them, they are flawed lunatics. They are bad. They not wish to help but watch how the universe burn. Religious fanatics, Osama bin Ladens of space. Maybe with slight Elon Musk traits.
6. History goes on. Constant wars everywhere. The Clans just do it a limited way help them preserve more power. But how the hell could they use their reserves if things are limited? Politics! Wardens, Crusaders, leftovers, big debates there and back without Bilbo Baggins. Some start to lost patience. Some already lost patience and it clouded their mind (Hey, Showers, 'sup?!). ComStar vessel says "Hi!". Chain of events => Let's invade the Inner Sphere and re-estabilish the Star League <= Wait, the SL? Ain't we mentioned this somewhere? Could that be a reason? Yes and no, depends on...
7. Clan Invasion. Crusaders are happy. Mostly. Wardens are happy. Mostly. Wolves are wolves. Usually. Events lined along politics on both sides but Clans had stronger tools to reasoning. ComStar is ComStar, fully and Waterly... The Inner Sphere shocked that they cannot war against each others => A new player with better tools? Heresy!
If the Inner Sphere never bash the League? No Clans, no Clan Invasion! Happyness? Yes, like the first time...
If the Inner Sphere rebuild the League? Clans would say: "Fake! Kerensky promised that for US! Get rekt!"
If the Inner Sphere exterminate themselves back to stone age literally? Wardens, hey! That's a valid reason for you to "protect the Inner Sphere and recreate the League with Clan rule?" Who knows, Wardens are wardens, usually, except when not...
If the Outbound Light destroyed in a missjump? Crusaders and Wardens debate for more decades... Or not. The Dragoons got lost. Someone sooner or later demand an explanation why? Send another expedition? The Doctor tell them how history would be distored without a Clan Invasion? Or just Ancient aliens?
8. Whatever you want to put here based on your favourite script. Not really matters. Because both sides dropped reasons for an IS vs Clan match. Both sides are responsible because of events happened through the history. Showers could be cited because he did what he thought necessary to achieve Kerensky's dreams (and his own). But reasons happened and existed long before him. Cite rulebook materials or whatever, the clash between the Sphere and Clans were DESTINED to be inevitable.

Now, time for a coffee, damn it!

[Jaroth Corbett]

KursedVixen, on 27 July 2025 - 09:29 PM, said:

You know putting words in peoples mouths is rude?

If you look back in history of Battletech as the lore goes while there inner sphere was not the only one causing problems they are definitely the cause of the invasion, if you want to get that deep it's the inner sphere who caused the Star league exodus that would ultimately lead to the Clan invasion, so in essence if you really want to dig that deep the inner sphere are responsible for everything that happened, who through sheer stupidity or out right denial of their actions indirectly created the clans so in that matter yes the inner sphere is the cause to all that happened as they are wholly at fault for the exodus of the star league, the creation of the clans when those inner sphere rivalries surfaced again in the pentagon worlds and the invasion that would come later....

Meanwhile Comstar sat back and let it all happen even aiding it to some degree both the Succession wars and the clan invasion

If you keep it up he'll ignore you too.

[KursedVixen]

Jaroth Corbett, on 28 July 2025 - 05:22 AM, said:

If you keep it up he'll ignore you too.

I think I can live with that.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 27 July 2025 - 09:29 PM, said:

You know putting words in peoples mouths is rude?

If you look back in history of Battletech as the lore goes while there inner sphere was not the only one causing problems they are definitely the cause of the invasion, if you want to get that deep it's the inner sphere who caused the Star league exodus that would ultimately lead to the Clan invasion, so in essence if you really want to dig that deep the inner sphere are responsible for everything that happened, who through sheer stupidity or out right denial of their actions indirectly created the clans so in that matter yes the inner sphere is the cause to all that happened as they are wholly at fault for the exodus of the star league, the creation of the clans when those inner sphere rivalries surfaced again in the pentagon worlds and the invasion that would come later....

Meanwhile Comstar sat back and let it all happen even aiding it to some degree both the Succession wars and the clan invasion

You just proved everything I said in the quote you were objecting to - you said I was "putting words in your mouth, and then ran your mouth to demonstrate everything I said in the quote. Truly, you are a treasure.

The Inner Sphere weren't "causing problems" for the Clans, and you can't claim that the decisions the Clans made are all the Inner Sphere's fault just because Kerensky called the Exodus when he foresaw the coming age of warfare. The Clans made the decision to invade a people who didn't even know they existed - claiming that the Inner Sphere "caused" the Clan Invasion is like claiming I "caused" a burglary to happen by having nice stuff in my house. "Look what you made me do" is not a justification for unprovoked aggression.

I get it, you like the power fantasy the Clans provide - just don't expect me to accept nonsensical arguments that blame everything the Clans ever did on the collapse of the Star League.

Edited by Void Angel, 28 July 2025 - 04:19 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 28 July 2025 - 03:58 PM, said:

You just proved everything I said in the quote you were objecting to. The Inner Sphere weren't "causing problems" for the Clans, and you can't claim that the decisions the Clans made are all the Inner Sphere's fault just because Kerensky called the Exodus when he foresaw the coming age of warfare. The Clans made the decision to invade a people who didn't even know they existed - claiming that the Inner Sphere "caused" the Clan Invasion is like claiming I "caused" a burglary to happen by having nice stuff. "Look what you made me do" is not a justification for unprovoked aggression.

I get it, you like the power fantasy the Clans provide - just don't expect me to accept nonsensical arguments that blame everything the Clans ever did on the collapse of the Star League.

Tell me who rules the inner sphere? And what did they do to keep the exodus from happening?

[Void Angel]

Oh boy. Nobody ruled the Inner Sphere when Kerensky led his secret Exodus - that was kind of the problem. And again, not stopping him from leaving does not make their centuries-later descendants responsible for everything his fascist descendants ever did. The idea is ludicrous.

"Hey, you remember how everybody in the neighborhood was fighting in our great-grandparents' day? And the head of the Neighborhood Watch moved away in protest, without telling everyone?"

"Uh, yeah, so what?"

"Well, now his great-grandkids are back in a motorcycle gang, to take over the neighborhood, and it's all your fault!"

That's just such a dumb argument. I can't believe the mental gymnastics you go through to justify this stuff.

Edited by Void Angel, 28 July 2025 - 04:27 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 28 July 2025 - 04:26 PM, said:

Oh boy. Nobody ruled the Inner Sphere when Kerensky led his secret Exodus - that was kind of the problem. And again, not stopping him from leaving does not make their centuries-later descendants responsible for everything his fascist descendants ever did. The idea is ludicrous.

"Hey, you remember how everybody in the neighborhood was fighting in our great-grandparents' day? And the head of the Neighborhood Watch moved away in protest, without telling everyone?"

"Uh, yeah, so what?"

"Well, now his great-grandkids are back in a motorcycle gang, to take over the neighborhood, and it's all your fault!"

That's just such a dumb argument. I can't believe the mental gymnastics you go through to justify this stuff.

So there is no periphery? no House Steiner? No house Davion no house Liao or Kurita at this time???? so you think these great houses just popped into existence after Amaris was ousted??? that suddently all of the inner spehre decided let's have a war? and somehow all the great houses and their boarders suddenly just popped into existance after Amaris was given the Autocannon to the face? that suddenly people just popped into existance and argued for possession of the Star league???

Also you didn't answer the second question..

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 July 2025 - 04:57 PM.