805 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

Will9761, on 06 July 2025 - 02:47 PM, said:

2. The "Evil Empire" Troupe - The Clans were created to be hated. Their lack of morals, their superiority complex, the "conquer the world" schtick. When you remove the trial trappings, they are no different than a stereotypical empire like the Galactic Empire, Brotherhood of Nod or The Enclave. Therefore it feels so cathartic to seeing a villain that you are rooting to fail against the hero fall in such a fitting manner. Going back to the Galactic Empire for example, seeing a group like the Rebel Alliance overcome a technological advanced enemy without outdated tech and smarts is like a "David vs Goliath" scenario. But instead of the Battle of Endor, we had the Battle of Tukayyid.

I dissagree with your second point clans are not an 'evil empire" troupe, (As stated before there are no 'good guys' in battletech) They are the decendants of the star league a faction some even in the Inner sphere reguard highly, they do not lack morals they lack the morals the inner sphere has. They are a diffrent culture. for some of the things they do like their eugenics program were how they survived on formerly inhospitable worlds, unlike the sphere they have rules of engagemant and aside from exceptions (Smoke jaguar) they attempt to avoid if not entierly remove civlian collateral damage, the whole trial thing was to prevent uneeded waste of resources, some clans even realize that the inner spehre did not deserve a formal 'trial' was Nicolas' vision flawed? maybe, but he was seeking to do away with old house rivalries that caused the pentagon wars and such, the clans united under one banner not any house banner, I'm sure Nicholas's death had unintended consuquences on the clans future. But while the inner sphere were blasting themselves back to the Stone age, the clans were building themselves into their own faction, developing new technology, technology so advanced that they seemed like aliens to the sphere when they invaded ,but saying the clans have the 'evil empire' troupe is honestly not what they are ,even if people like to use that as an excuse to hate them. I do not believe they were created to be hated, it's just another reason people use to hate them among others.

Honestly you can make that argument over any faction in battletech, House Liao?? to say that the clans were specifically created to be hated is honestly short sighted.

i like to think of the Klingons from Star Trek as an example...

Edited by KursedVixen, 07 July 2025 - 11:58 PM.

[Void Angel]

Point of Order! The Clans brought advancements on Inner Sphere technology. It wasn't just lostech, it was new tech, because the Clans had been focusing their efforts on ritual warfare and weapons development while they waited to murder their way to pow - er, Restore the Star League! Of course, it says a LOT about Clan culture that they literally produced no innovations in two hundred and sixty-six years. Everything is just improvements on Star League technology.

Now, I wasn't playing tournament rules, or particularly attached to either the Inner Sphere or the Clans when they were released for the tabletop game. I didn't find their culture terribly compelling, but I didn't dislike them either. In retrospect, the lack of cultural appeal in the Clans is down to their fascist military junta posing as a government - and like I said before, that's why I dislike them within the thematic universe.

As for game balance? Meh, I didn't care. Yeah, their gear was obviously a straight upgrade - that's what additional game supplements do, right? If I had been playing in competitions (even informally,) I might have felt differently, particularly if the format encouraged me to pick a faction. Think of it like Warhammer, particularly since there are miniatures involved - I can see why people might resent having to face off with the guy who glommed onto the overpowered Mary Sue Space Mongols. But me just playing with my brothers and friends occasionally, it didn't make much of a blip.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 July 2025 - 09:52 AM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

The Clans are a Mongol Horde expy with all the other nasty trappings described already. Evil Empire? I mean, depends on how you feel about that sort of thing. They basically squatted and grunted right over Aleksandr Kerensky's legacy because Nicholas Kerensky swore it was the right thing to do, right after Nicky murdered his relatives and committed other acts of rank hypocrisy and black hattery. Not that the SLDF itself was purely sainted, they treated the Periphery like crap BEFORE the Amaris shindig but you could argue that was just the Star League giving the orders and SLDF going "okie dokie!" like a bunch of Pinkertons.

Everything else has already been touched on.

Edited by a 5 year old with an Uzi, 08 July 2025 - 08:09 PM.

[KursedVixen]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 08 July 2025 - 08:04 PM, said:

The Clans are a Mongol Horde expy with all the other nasty trappings described already. Evil Empire? I mean, depends on how you feel about that sort of thing. They basically squatted and grunted right over Aleksandr Kerensky's legacy because Nicholas Kerensky swore it was the right thing to do, right after Nicky murdered his relatives and committed other acts of rank hypocrisy and black hattery. Not that the SLDF itself was purely sainted, they treated the Periphery like crap BEFORE the Amaris shindig but you could argue that was just the Star League giving the orders and SLDF going "okie dokie!" like a bunch of Pinkertons.

Everything else has already been touched on.

So let's blame the whole of Nicholas' sins on the whole of the clans??? the current clans barely know who he even is blaming them for the past hardly fixes anything or makes it better. i don't recall Him murdering anyone there are rumors he sent his brother to his death in battle but nothing else...

[Void Angel]

He murdered his father's dream, and buried it with his principles. The Clans aren't literally a eugenic fascist dystopia because of that Nicky did - they're a fascist dystopia because they've chosen to be, over the course of centuries. This is a culture that is entirely geared to warfare - not preserving the culture of the Star League, or even making its own homeworlds livable. Nope, everything about the Clans is based on force - even laws can be overturned with victory in the proper Trial, and the only check on that principle is when the "trial" involved boils down to "we're all going to murder you."

The Wardens talk a better game, but as a group they weren't willing to fight the Crusaders for their principles - Wolf gets credit for sabotaging the invasion by various means, but not one of them stood on principle and said "no" to the fascist war machine. Which is understandable, really - but if you choose to be the oldest animal on Animal Farm, you don't get to tout your "honorable" values when you acquiesce to armed robbery and opression on an interstellar scale.

And then there's the civil society. If anybody thinks they'd enjoy living in Clan culture as anything other than a Warrior, or maybe a Scientist caste, they are badly mistaken. We're talking about people who claim to value ability, but deliberately hamstring 'freeborn' children to prevent them from achieving what the "trueborn" can, justifying their child-stealing nightmare culture by treachery and child abuse. Even the best of the Warden Clans are just "not as bad" about their prejudices, nominal exceptions that prove the rule. These are people who have adopted oral traditions of history, because the Clan leadership has destroyed literary traditions.

At the end of the day, the Clans are a brutal, ignorant society of might makes right, dressed up in pretty ideals about "honor and justice" that they themselves do not embody. Clan MechWarriors who actually survive past their physical prime are relegated to suicide units intended to be fed into the better-equipped jaws of younger first-line Mechwarriors - because if you can't produce for the Clan, you have no worth. If you get to old to fight for your place against younger challengers, they take your place and you're cast aside to be used as cannon fodder - and that's just the Warrior Caste. If you're a menial laborer, well... don't get old.

Edited by Void Angel, 09 July 2025 - 05:19 AM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

KursedVixen, on 09 July 2025 - 01:22 AM, said:

So let's blame the whole of Nicholas' sins on the whole of the clans??? the current clans barely know who he even is blaming them for the past hardly fixes anything or makes it better. i don't recall Him murdering anyone there are rumors he sent his brother to his death in battle but nothing else...

His machinations resulted in the Annihilation of Clan Wolverine. He set up and rubberstamped the ostracism and eventual obliteration of McEvedy and her people because it was politically expedient for him to give his fascist flunkies a common enemy to galvanize under his banner. We are talking thousands of people dead. If a nation's leader can be held accountable for how those under his leadership execute their directive (and Jason Karrige of Widowmaker did exactly that for Nicky) then Nicky is guilty of the very same atrocities his father would have condemned and had someone shot for.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Did you guys really necro a thread back to life? Wow. OK I guess we're doing this.

Void Angel, on 29 June 2025 - 11:04 PM, said:

EVERYONE hates Katherine - she's one of the most hateable people in fiction, I think. And Steiner is one of the least-likeable Houses, thematically. Marik is Space Democracy Gone Wrong, Davion is Tactical Excellence, Kurita is Space Samurai, and Liao is Machiavellian Space China. Steiner's thing? They compensate for their general officers' incompetence with massive industrial power. The only less-likeable House is Liao, since their thing for much of the game's history is playing Stabbity McBackerson pretty much as a constant theme.

Nothing to really disagree with here. I could debate some finer points but as I have a long way to go, I won't put in that effort for that.

Void Angel, on 29 June 2025 - 11:04 PM, said:

For the Clans... well, I used to like them well enough. I mean, they're the aggressors, and they're screwing up what would probably have been the end of the Succession Wars - with FedCom's dominance and the recovery of the Helm memory core, the Federated Commonwealth could overwhelm both its military opponents and ComStar's clandestine campaign to stop technological recovery. But they seemed cool, if a little constrained.


Then I took some political science in college.


The Clans are, literally, fascist space Mongols. All the components are there: authoritarian rule; violence as the means of choice to solve all problems; an entire cultural system geared for warfare; a harkening back to a (largely mythical) better time - and an enemy to fight and blame for the current state of things. They've even got racism, in a fictional universe where racism seems to have largely ceased to exist (sometimes replaced by political bigotry, but still.)

Clans were the aggressors? You think the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere were living in peace singing kumbaya around the camp fire and the Clans showed up screaming, 'GET REKT!".

Do you know about the Tintavel Massacre? Don't get me started on the DC. Have you heard of the Kentares Massacre? Or the Santiago Massacre? Hanse Davion Started a Succession War as a wedding present FFS. Maybe you should read up on those things. I won't go into the other Houses because if I do I'll be writing a book. Instead I will, as I always have, quote directly from the source material. This is what the "non-violent, non-aggressive" Great Houses were up to as described by Classic Batttletech Universe sourcebook page 9 in the chapter "A Brief History of the Inner Sphere":

Quote

In the resulting power vacuum, the rulers of the realms now called the Successor States fought endless, brutal wars, each seeking to re-establish the Star League under his own leadership. In three hundred years of conflict, the Successor Lords accomplished little save to blast humankind virtually back to the Stone Age. By the time the third of the so-called Succession Wars ended, humanity had lost nearly every technological advance that the Star League had made possible; only stringent restrictions on destroying JumpShips, DropShips, BattleMechs and other irreplaceable technologies of war allowed interstellar combat to continue. As the Successor States battered each other senseless, the fighting ground down to endless border skirmishes in which no combatant gained significant advantage

Sounds real peaceful to me

Void Angel, on 29 June 2025 - 11:04 PM, said:

What follows is a repetition of history; a new version of the early Succession Wars, fought with technology centuries more advanced and far more destructive, and by people with little regard for the Ares Accords - or preserving Hyperpulse generators. The results would be catastrophic; it's unlikely that mankind would not survive - the vast breadth of its diaspora almost guarantees some survivors. But the collapse of interstellar economies would be devastating; and if we lose FTL altogether, unknown trillions would perish. Technology would be battered back even further than before, and climbing back might take so long that the Star League - or the Clans - are remembered only as embellished, irrelevant legends.

People with little regard for the Ares Accords? The Clans entire way of fighting is designed to protect civilians from danger. Only warriors are allowed to do battle. The fighting area is cleared so no innocents get hurt. They don't do sneak attacks. They announce when they are coming to fight and for the record they don't use NUKES.

Spoiler

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 09 July 2025 - 09:10 AM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

The Clans were literally the aggressors and they did show up yelling Get Rekt except it sounded more like:

Clanner: "I am Star Colonel Benjamin Dover of Clan Adjective Animal, a full Trinary of my Warriors stands ready to conquer your pathetic planet, with what forces will you bid to defend it, barbarians?"

"designed to protect civilians from danger" except when said civilians really don't want to be a part of the Adjective Animal society and the executions and Turtle Bays and stuff happen, as it turns out Naval PPCs do a great job of filling in for a nuke

Imagine being so lousy at conquest that conquered civvies would rather live as KURITAN SUBJECTS than as Smoke Jag subjects

Edited by a 5 year old with an Uzi, 09 July 2025 - 09:53 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Jaroth Corbett, on 09 July 2025 - 08:59 AM, said:

Did you guys really necro a thread back to life? Wow. OK I guess we're doing this.



Nothing to really disagree with here. I could debate some finer points but as I have a long way to go, I won't put in that effort for that.



Clans were the aggressors? You think the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere were living in peace singing kumbaya around the camp fire and the Clans showed up screaming, 'GET REKT!".

Do you know about the Tintavel Massacre? Don't get me started on the DC. Have you heard of the Kentares Massacre? Or the Santiago Massacre? Hanse Davion Started a Succession War as a wedding present FFS. Maybe you should read up on those things. I won't go into the other Houses because if I do I'll be writing a book. Instead I will, as I always have, quote directly from the source material. This is what the "non-violent, non-aggressive" Great Houses were up to as described by Classic Batttletech Universe sourcebook page 9 in the chapter "A Brief History of the Inner Sphere":



Sounds real peaceful to me



People with little regard for the Ares Accords? The Clans entire way of fighting is designed to protect civilians from danger. Only warriors are allowed to do battle. The fighting area is cleared so no innocents get hurt. They don't do sneak attacks. They announce when they are coming to fight and for the record they don't use NUKES.

Spoiler

you forgot about Katherine steiner-Davion totally ripping apart a combined house of Davion and Steiner and starting another war just because she didn't like her brother.... yeah sure the great houses are so peaceful.... isn't the whole reason of kerensky leaving to deprive the Great houses of some of the greatest military hardware avalible?So that they can't blow each other back to the stone age even faster?

The SLDF leaving the inner sphere didn't even make anyone ask "Why'd they leave" Instead it was oh let's just blast each other like normal now that the SLDF isn't around to stop us or bother the periphery we can just blast ourselves back to the stone age.

Jaroth Corbett, on 09 July 2025 - 08:59 AM, said:

Clans were the aggressors? You think the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere were living in peace singing kumbaya around the camp fire and the Clans showed up screaming, 'GET REKT!".

He went to 'college' and a class there about 'politics' he must be correct, right?

Edited by KursedVixen, 09 July 2025 - 10:57 AM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

tu quoque - check
ad hominem used as an obvious bizarro ad verecundiam - check
special pleading - check

Clanners passed on debate club and PoliSci both, their fans did too I guess

[KursedVixen]

Et tu?

[Jaroth Corbett]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 09 July 2025 - 10:47 AM, said:

Clanners passed on debate club and PoliSci both, their fans did too I guess

Dude I am clearly refuting the claims and I am HAPPY to debate you because I will throw the entire source material at you. I quoted from the source material to prove that the IS were the aggressors. You can cry, whine, evade or make excuses but the source material backs me up. I will club you over the head with the facts like hunters do to those baby seals.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 09 July 2025 - 11:11 AM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

If you show up in someone's front yard with intent to conquer and issue a challenge to that effect you are by definition an aggressor what kind of mental gymnastics does it take to think otherwise

Invasions are aggression
Blockades and sieges are aggression

[Jaroth Corbett]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 09 July 2025 - 11:42 AM, said:

If you show up in someone's front yard with intent to conquer and issue a challenge to that effect you are by definition an aggressor what kind of mental gymnastics does it take to think otherwise

Invasions are aggression
Blockades and sieges are aggression

let me take you by the hand and club you over the head since you want to talk mental gymnastics. Here is what the Clans (the Crusaders at least) came to save the IS from.

Before I do that let me preface this by saying, their front yard is actually the home of the great grandparents since the Clans are the descendants of the SLDF personnel. Here is what aggression looks like:

The Kentares Massacre:

Quote

What followed remains a stain upon the Dragon’s honor and history and should never be forgotten, if only as a lesson in what the madness of power can bring upon a man and a nation.

Jinjiro was on Franklin when he was informed of the Coordinator’s death. Upon his arrival at Kentares, the new Coordinator ordered his troops to kill every living soul upon the planet. To defy the order was a death sentence. During the following five months, Kuritan units on Kentares dispersed across the planet and began the systematic killing. The mass executions were accomplished by rounding up as many as possible in the cities, then using ’Mechs and vehicles to hunt down the rest.

- Handbook House Kurita page 41

The Tintavel Massacre:

Quote

In 2412, the Free Worlds League launched an attack on the Capellan world of Tintavel. In one of the greatest tragedies of history, poorly worded orders and vague rules of engagement led to the death of thousands of civilians as battles tore through the planet’s major cities. The conflict continued to escalate until both sides employed nuclear and chemical weapons to destroy one another. Over three hundred thousand people were killed or injured—most of them non-combatants. Even after the nations’ leaders had personally called an end to the fighting, the damage was done. Tintavel was abandoned within a few years.

- Era Digest - Age of War Page 5.

The Clans go out of their way to prevent civilians injuries/deaths and collateral damage. We can go into that another time as I'm sure there will be follow ups.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

I think what genuinely astonishes me is that people can stan for the Clans as being okay when they tick off so many alarming boxes

Using an "other" to galvanize under leadership and then proceeding to slaughter said "other" especially when the "other" has become an inconvenience by defying your regime's grand vision
The need for endless war in order to maintain cohesion
A sense of innate superiority over others, asserted by lethal force if need be, couched in a mythos that casts them as avenging angels/savior figures not to be denied or defied
A eugenics program
A strict caste system and social stratification that puts othered people always a rung below
Governance by strongarm military figures
Indentured servitude
Honor culture trappings
Devaluation of human life and the idea of familial bonds
Oh can't forget "ends justify means"

If they are supposed to be BETTER than the Inner Sphere how do they manage to encapsulate almost everything wrong with it and add even more terrible things to the list

Jaroth Corbett, on 09 July 2025 - 12:38 PM, said:

let me take you by the hand and club you over the head since you want to talk mental gymnastics. Here is what the Clans (the Crusaders at least) came to save the IS from.

Before I do that let me preface this by saying, their front yard is actually the home of the great grandparents since the Clans are the descendants of the SLDF personnel. Here is what aggression looks like:

The Kentares Massacre:

- Handbook House Kurita page 41

The Tintavel Massacre:


- Era Digest - Age of War Page 5.

The Clans go out of their way to prevent civilians injuries/deaths and collateral damage. We can go into that another time as I'm sure there will be follow ups.

tu quoque and special pleading

Turtle Bay
Everything that happened to Clan Wolverine

That's off the top of my head

Edited by a 5 year old with an Uzi, 09 July 2025 - 01:08 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 09 July 2025 - 12:59 PM, said:

I think what genuinely astonishes me is that people can stan for the Clans as being okay when they tick off so many alarming boxes

Using an "other" to galvanize under leadership and then proceeding to slaughter said "other" especially when the "other" has become an inconvenience by defying your regime's grand vision
The need for endless war in order to maintain cohesion
A sense of innate superiority over others, asserted by lethal force if need be, couched in a mythos that casts them as avenging angels/savior figures not to be denied or defied
A eugenics program
A strict caste system and social stratification that puts othered people always a rung below
Governance by strongarm military figures
Indentured servitude
Honor culture trappings
Devaluation of human life and the idea of familial bonds

If they are supposed to be BETTER than the Inner Sphere how do they manage to encapsulate almost everything wrong with it and add even more terrible things to the list



tu quoque and special pleading

Turtle Bay
Everything that happened to Clan Wolverine

That's off the top of my head

You say the Clans were the aggressors, I show you aggression on the IS side (aka the "good guys") and you deflect. Fine I'll play your game.

Turtle Bay was an isolated incident, not common place and in fact after it happened, ALL the other Clans were outraged by the act, even the ilKhan, who was himself a Smoke Jaguar, was mad. To prevent anything like that from happening again Clan Wolf bid away warships for the rest of the invasion and the other Clans followed suit in a show of solidarity.

As far as the Wolverines go, they were Annihilated for using a NUKE which is yet another isolated incident.

Spoiler

You can evade all you want but it won't help. My previous point, backed up by the source material I showed you, stands.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 09 July 2025 - 01:47 PM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

Jaroth Corbett, on 09 July 2025 - 01:45 PM, said:

You say the Clans were the aggressors, I show you aggression on the IS side (aka the "good guys") and you deflect. Fine I'll play your game.

Turtle Bay was an isolated incident, not common place and in fact after it happened, ALL the other Clans were outraged by the act, even the ilKhan, who was himself a Smoke Jaguar, was mad. To prevent anything like that from happening again Clan Wolf bid away warships for the rest of the invasion and the other Clans followed suit in a show of solidarity.

As far as the Wolverines go, they were Annihilated for using a NUKE which is yet another isolated incident.

Spoiler

You can evade all you want but it won't help. My previous point, backed up by the source material I showed you, stands.

Time for a Clan history lesson

Quote

In July 2823, a Brian Cache was discovered in the Tiki Province on Circe. Though technically in Wolverine territory, Clan Jade Falcon attempted to win the Cache in a Trial of Possession. They failed, but Jade Falcon Khan Lisa Buhallin brought the matter to the Grand Council in August 2823, issuing a formal protest. Due to the existence of nuclear weapons in the cache, the ilKhan determined that it would be treated as a council matter, and the Wolverines were initially allowed to complete the inventory of the Cache.

When the inventory was completed and presented to the ilKhan, he determined that no one Clan should have possession of the entire Cache, and that Trials of Possession would be necessary to fairly distribute the contents. McEvedy immediately requested a Trial of Refusal over the decision, which would be fought in October 2823 (and unfortunately lost) by her and her saKhan, Dwight Robertson (who was killed in the battle).

McEvedy then began the planning of Operation SWITCHBACK, an audacious plan to secede from the authority of the ilKhan and Grand Council and return to the Inner Sphere. While McEvedy attended the Grand Council, Hallis headed to the Norfolk Boneyard to liberate WarShips from the mothballed Exodus Fleet. Another Wolverine team performed a similar mission in the San Diego Boneyard.

On 8 October 2823, McEvedy protested the results of the Trial of Refusal, claiming that the Grand Council was interfering in the internal affairs of Clan Wolverine. She then revealed the existence of The Watch and claimed that no fair trial was possible in the current climate, claiming (correctly) that as she was not asked to contribute to The Watch, it was meant to work against the Wolverines. Realizing that nothing she could say or do would stop the inevitability of her Clan's destruction, she repudiated the ilKhan and left the Council chamber.

As a last resort, McEvedy met privately with the ilKhan the next day, 10 October 2823, onboard McKenna's Pride. While the ilKhan complimented her on the strength of her Clan, he expressed disappointment over the attempts to liberalize and change his vision. He made it clear that the Wolverines would be destroyed by the other Clans as an object lesson. McEvedy made several offers to avoid that outcome, but the ilKhan was adamant.[9]

McEvedy would return to the Grand Council a final time on 11 October 2823, shortly after Wolverine forces defeated a multi-Clan force at the Brian Cache on Circe. She attempted to sway the Grand Council by revealing the ilKhan's plans, to no avail. She then renounced her position in Council, announced her intention to secede from the Clans, insulted the ilKhan and Council, and threatened any who would attack the Wolverines.[10] The Khan of Clan Smoke Jaguar called for a Trial of Absorption as McEvedy left the chamber for the last time. Operation SWITCHBACK, Clan Wolverine's last hope, had begun.

Unbeknownst to Clan Wolverine, Clan Widowmaker operatives had stolen one of the nuclear devices from the Brian Cache, and prepared it for detonation in their capital city of Great Hope. Khan Jason Karrige then activated the device when he, the ilKhan, and Clan Widowmaker forces approached the city.

As Karrige had hoped and planned for, the blame fell on the shoulders of the Wolverines. The ilKhan commanded Clan Snow Raven to take the battle to the Wolverines on Circe as he planned the ultimate punishment: the Trial of Annihilation. Clan Snow Raven's attempt to use a nuclear weapon on the remaining Wolverine forces backfired horribly when the nuclear-equipped aerospace fighter was shot down by the Bismark, a mothballed WarShip reclaimed by Wolverine saKhan Franklin Hallis. The activated nuclear weapon detonated in an airburst over the Snow Raven's capital of Dehra Dun. This too would be blamed on Clan Wolverine.[11]

https://www.sarna.ne..._Clan_Wolverine

[Jaroth Corbett]

LOL I guess you never debated me before but I wipe my *** with Sarna because they have proven to be inaccurate before. I quoted DIRECTLY from the source material so once again, my point, backed up by the source material, stands.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

Jaroth Corbett, on 09 July 2025 - 02:10 PM, said:

LOL I guess you never debated me before but I wipe my *** with Sarna because they have proven to be inaccurate before. I quoted DIRECTLY from the source material so once again, my point, backed up by the source material, stands.

The Betrayal of Ideals books are where that Wolverine history is sourced from

And it carries as much canonicity as anything you have posted if not more since it is a newer novel series expanding on the lore and filling in gaps/explaining inconsistencies

https://www.sarna.ne...rayal_of_Ideals

so... if novels are canon I think we can put that fo bed

Edited by a 5 year old with an Uzi, 09 July 2025 - 02:53 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

1. You still haven't refuted my points that the IS were the aggressors.

2. Your attempt to deflect doesn't change the fact that even IF I confirm what the books say (I think I have the Betrayal of Ideals, so I'll double check) it still wouldn't change the fact that the use of a nuclear device is what prompted the action taken against Clan Wolverine which the people who wrote the Battletech book i quoted from, stated. This further backs ME up in my claim that the Clans view such utter destruction with disdain.

Why do you keep punching yourself?