605 replies to this topic

[Isegrimm]

I dislike them for one reason. I think it was the end of summer '98, when i played a game called "Mech Warrior2: Mercenaries" for the first time. A friend gave it to me, together with the first three gray death novels. other than that i had no clue of Battletech. I instantly fell in love with the game and the fiction and played and read as often as i could.

then finally, i had made enough money to provide my merc-lance with two atlas and and an awesome. the next contract should be easy - whipe out a pirate airstrip and the guarding force.... but it ended in complete disaster, strange mechs, i've never seen before, all around me. superior firepower, unstoppable for the 15-year-old-me. in the end, my lance was destoyed, my mates dead and i was caputered by a strange force, calling themselves "Clan Wolf"....

I hate them, because i was like the typical spheroid when they hit the IS, i had no idea what was going on. That defined my view of the BTU and so i hate them and i love hating them

[Moromillas]

The clans? I can't understand why anyone would like those so called "great houses."

Why would they dislike them.... Well this one is a little complicated, each clan is somewhat different, and inside, has different elements etc. I think the main problem would be the political ********, but this stems from (I think) a misinterpretation of the Kerensky doctrine.

[Bishop Steiner]

test tube baby space-N-A-Z-I-S bent on galactic domination with all the personality of a Styrofoam brick.....

what's not to love?

(Cool toys tho)

[MischiefSC]

The clans are The Great And Glorious Order of the Gary Stu in battletech.

They took a gritty, brutal game about the ruthlessness of humanity in warfare and introduced the super smart, super warrior clone babies of honor in combat, then gave them super-tech.

Any modern military, and I'm talking 21st century here, would have kicked the s**t out of the clans. It's a relative handful of soldiers with incredibly difficult to maintain battlefield weapons. Shoot them while they sleep, poison their food and water, sabotage their supply lines. What I find so insultingly stupid is that the IS keeps fielding mechs against them. Retreat from every field and save your gear. Do it with infantry, spies and assassins. Mechs or not the Clans wouldn't last 3 weeks in Afghanistan.

But no, some FASA development guy has to live out his compensation fantasy and crap all over an otherwise awesome game. The Clans are stupidly overpowered and then provided alongside some stupid behavioral nerfs to create this false sense of dichotomy.

I hope the Clans only make it into MWO as NPCs that we team up against. I fear however that it's not going to be the case. You'd be hard pressed to force a regular human to play as absolutely stupidly as a clanner would have to.

[CoffiNail]

Isegrimm, on 03 February 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

I dislike them for one reason. I think it was the end of summer '98, when i played a game called "Mech Warrior2: Mercenaries" for the first time. A friend gave it to me, together with the first three gray death novels. other than that i had no clue of Battletech. I instantly fell in love with the game and the fiction and played and read as often as i could.

then finally, i had made enough money to provide my merc-lance with two atlas and and an awesome. the next contract should be easy - whipe out a pirate airstrip and the guarding force.... but it ended in complete disaster, strange mechs, i've never seen before, all around me. superior firepower, unstoppable for the 15-year-old-me. in the end, my lance was destoyed, my mates dead and i was caputered by a strange force, calling themselves "Clan Wolf"....

I hate them, because i was like the typical spheroid when they hit the IS, i had no idea what was going on. That defined my view of the BTU and so i hate them and i love hating them

Great reason to hate the Clans! Honestly!

MischiefSC, on 03 February 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

The clans are The Great And Glorious Order of the Gary Stu in battletech.

They took a gritty, brutal game about the ruthlessness of humanity in warfare and introduced the super smart, super warrior clone babies of honor in combat, then gave them super-tech.

Any modern military, and I'm talking 21st century here, would have kicked the s**t out of the clans. It's a relative handful of soldiers with incredibly difficult to maintain battlefield weapons. Shoot them while they sleep, poison their food and water, sabotage their supply lines. What I find so insultingly stupid is that the IS keeps fielding mechs against them. Retreat from every field and save your gear. Do it with infantry, spies and assassins. Mechs or not the Clans wouldn't last 3 weeks in Afghanistan.

But no, some FASA development guy has to live out his compensation fantasy and crap all over an otherwise awesome game. The Clans are stupidly overpowered and then provided alongside some stupid behavioral nerfs to create this false sense of dichotomy.

I hope the Clans only make it into MWO as NPCs that we team up against. I fear however that it's not going to be the case. You'd be hard pressed to force a regular human to play as absolutely stupidly as a clanner would have to.

The Clans are not all OmniMechs... The OmniMechs are the front-line machines of war. The Clans do have MP, infantry, tanks, etc. This is just not their front-line material. This is all just tossed in their support personal for a Cluster. These are low rate freeborns, or the trueborns who just did not meet the Clan's standards, and are test-downs.

The Clan's lower caste are very loyal to their way of life. The spies and assassins would not have it so easy to get in to the Clan's Warrior caste. PLUS when you start bringing out these sort of dezgra tactics, it tends to go, not so well. The Clans actually improved a lot of peoples way of life, why do you think it was not all out rebellion by the whole population. Most of the rebellious activity was by those patriotic fanatics.

You also seem to forget about Elementals... Takes a lot of infantry bullets to take out a Elemental in Armour. So, I think the Clans would fair pretty well in Afghanistan. Plus Battletech is the 1980s future, not 2013s.

There will be a lot of bad Clantech players, but there will also be a rather large number of actual Clan players as well. I think a lot of players are going to stay as IS though. Salvage, buy, etc ClanTech weapons/chassis. I do not see much benefits for Clan Factions in itself vs IS factions. But we will see how PGI plan on doing community warfare and Clans.

[Stormwolf]

CoffiNail, on 03 February 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Plus Battletech is the 1980s future, not 2013s.

^This

[Jakob Knight]

The reason I hate the clans from a MWO perspective is that Clantech becomes something a player relies on to play effectively. In essence a crutch, and their skills erode. Looking at the number of players pining for their omnimechs or Clan weapons only confirms that there are a large number of players who look to the technology of the Clans to excuse a need to learn how to fight with less. At the same time, many look at Clantech as the standard instead of the unusual, which puts IS equipment in the place of 'second hand' instead of the norm. It's a skewed standard that only degrades the game and the players.

From a Battletech perspective, the Clans glorified war and science, but discarded the reasons for the same. As a quote from a certain movie stated quite elegantly: "Mortal combat isn't about death. It's about life." The Clans abandon life in favor of death, seeing life only in terms of the kind of death one achieves. They do not fight to protect life but to achieve the greatest glory, so I do not accept them on those grounds. Then they put their scientific achievements on a pedestal, but cast aside the fact that science is supposed to be in existence to understand and enhance life, not the other way around. In short, the Clans betray the very foundations on which their values depend, and cannot stand.

I hope this explains my own reasons for rejecting the Clans.

[Jakob Knight]

Stormwolf, on 03 February 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

^This

It is amazing how every generation think that just because a decade or two passes that people are magically different, and the problems and conflicts that were faced ten or twenty years ago have nothing to do with what is faced today.

Learn history, or be doomed.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 03 February 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Jakob Knight, on 03 February 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

It is amazing how every generation think that just because a decade or two passes that people are magically different, and the problems and conflicts that were faced ten or twenty years ago have nothing to do with what is faced today.

Learn history, or be doomed.

I don't see how learning history relates to how people look at the future.
Oh well, we should have really taken better care of those criminals back in 2000, they are causing all sorts of damage in the past now:

http://d1466nnw0ex81.../600/524101.jpg

[Jukebox1986]

I´m just quoting myself in this case:

Janus Wealth, on 01 February 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

I like the Clans for the same reason i like the Houses - i can hate them.

Dont get me wrong, there is a lot of things you can like about the Clans (the people, not their toys), they have values to stand (and to die) for. Just like the I.S.
The Clans stands for progress, a society who wants to improve every day, in every way.
The I.S. stands for freedom. A society that values treachery the same way as honor.

But i cant stand both of em, 6 houses + Comstar, over 20 Clans... and there are not many i think highly of. Clan Blood Spirit comes to mind. Capella under Sun Tzu. The "false" Marik. But it is mostly the leaders i like, not the mindset of the people. So i can jump into my Mech and earn money with their deaths without feeling bad about it.
The Gray Death Leagion, the Kell Hounds, Camachos Caballeros (excluding Cassie), thats where my allegiance is. Money - not politics.

[thanosazlin]

i am old school BT tabletop from 1991 to 1998 also played mw 1,2,3 and mc (mech commander 1 and 2)

we played BT tabletop with IS only and with clan and IS. it was great it just depends on our outlook in life ..

the clan barter system for battles will help in MWO. the clan teams in BT would have less amount of mechs than IS , so yes you would have superior tech playing as Clan but you would have less amount of mechs so it still came down to strategy . i didn't see anyone mention that.

[MischiefSC]

Assassinations, sabotage, IEDs and that sort of warfare has been going on since there have been people in some form or another. We just have better media coverage of it now and western states are seeing it more. Ask the Soviets what they thought of Afghanistan in the 80s, they dealt with suicide bombers and IEDs.

The dramatic advantage of that is the war of attrition and that's where the clans would get walked all over. yes, they had infantry but not many. Same with mech warriors. Too few. Dealing with invasions of tiny nations of a few million people involves more soldiers and personnel then any of the clans fielded - how are they supposed to take and hold planets?

Let me put it to you this way - if, for example, the Clans showed up and invaded Earth with 50,000 soldiers how would that go? Mechs and Elementals or not. You don't sleep in your mech or your armor. Snipers, suicide attacks, carefully placed IEDs and sabotage and solid organization of the same would make a slaughter of it.

Spread that out among hundreds of worlds, heck even dozens of worlds. Each clan couldn't take and hold even a single planet not to mention a dozen. Too few.

It's this illusion that you can only fight people when they're ready to fight and in their mech/armor/whatever. No, you sneak one person who looks like a freeborn janitor in and he steals a crate of LRMs and detonates them in the Elementals barracks. Or he poisons the bottled water the Trueborn mechwarriors are getting. Or he just blows up their food and water supplies. Now they have to take what they can locally and that's a great way to get poisoned.

Honestly? It's this illusionary idea that just because someone is a tough soldier he is ALWAYS, at any time and no matter what, a match for 10 other people.

It doesn't work like that. A pair of 2 man sniper teams would kill half the elite mechwarriors of the clan force while they were in the chow line one morning, then fade and do it again next week.

That's what irks me about the whole thing. That in order to make it realistic at all you have to have this enforced stupidity where, really, all the KILLING only takes place in mechs and such. That nobody has to eat, go to the bathroom, get out and walk around, chat with friends or have down-time.

The Clans are a deus ex machina. They are utterly artificial in construct and only function in the fiction by pretending that somehow all the ways that any civilization out of the bronze age would kick their behinds just doesn't happen.

[Damion Wolf]

I find this thread both offensive and refreshing. I fully support this.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

1. Fascism

2. In.cest

3. Plot Armor

Edited by crabcakes66, 03 February 2013 - 10:36 AM.

[Vahnn]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 02 February 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Why would someone dislike the clans, I can't imagine why. I try to use the clan culture in all aspects of my life.

Like a few days ago I asked this girl out and she said "no ur creepy" so I told her that I wanted a trial of refusal. I knocked out her front teeth and broke a few of her ribs, I told her that every time she disagrees with me I am going to do it again. So we are going out now and I couldn't be happier.

I can't imagine why people would dislike the clans.

[/sarcasm]

Oh, man, my sides are busting...!

[CoffiNail]

Vahnn, on 03 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Oh, man, my sides are busting...!

His post is side splittingly funny

[Ophidian]

Quote

I always wonder why people aruge with trolls.

This thread is about why people like the Clans. This thread is not about why people do not like the Clans. If you want to debate disliking the Clans or the strength and flaws of the Clans then I am sure you can easily go and find a thread to accomodate you. They do exist.

Ok, a couple things.
First off, OPs quote, I'm going to assume is from another thread, because it would make no sense with this thread's title.

Secondly, why have a thread about people disliking Clanners....in a Clanner part of the forum, where most of the population are made up of Clanners? That's hardly objective.

Thirdly, I don't hate Clanners because of the lore. Actually, I hate them because their tech is plain better than IS, in almost every way. Hotter, yes, but heat can always be managed. In my experience in the old NBT leagues, where factions were split off by their respective tech, it was always the Clanners who worried most about mix-teching, that is having Clan weapons in IS mechs. And yes, you COULD claim that it was just keeping to the story, but really it just made it sound as if you just wanted the clear advantage over other people. It's kinda like how in other multiplayer games, where some people hack the game and get godmode, infinite ammo, or one-shot skill SMGs. Except without actually hacking anything and being able to hide behind "But it's accurate to our background!".

Not all Clan players, obviously, but a sufficient number enough to make you all look bad by association.

Frankly, I'm not sure Battletech was ever intended to have Clan and IS players ever to fight on equal ground. Balance is not an issue if Clanners are meant to be the Big Bad, so the advantages are merely obstacles to overcome, and not serious, game-breaking balance problems.

[Stormwolf]

Ophidian, on 03 February 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Frankly, I'm not sure Battletech was ever intended to have Clan and IS players ever to fight on equal ground. Balance is not an issue if Clanners are meant to be the Big Bad, so the advantages are merely obstacles to overcome, and not serious, game-breaking balance problems.

The Clans have better gear, the IS has the numbers.

IMO, the only viable matchup for MWO would be 5 Clan mechs vs 8 IS mechs.

[Vulk Kell]

So all in all the Clan vs IS debate is similar to the Christianity vs Islam debate, one is a bit shinier and the other has more people... In the end they are both common groups of people banded together around a common goal. And as a matter of fact Warden Clans (post invasion) are looking more to HELP the IS then to destroy them.... so.... there ya have it... my two cents...

[Ashla Mason]

Kay. Got somethings now.

That which makes them strong also makes them weak.
The clans absolute pursuit of efficient warfare has provided them with better pilots, better tech, and an ultimately less destructive approach to warfare, but at the same time, this has also closed doors for them in several ways.

1. understanding the enemy: Simply put, the IS and the Clans are about as different culturally as you can get without having doctor seuss around for consultation. This ultimately leads to problems with the clans attempting to integrate the captured IS civilians on many worlds during the invasion, and in at least a few occasions caused it to slow to a crawl as more and more forces had to be left behind to maintain some sort of balance.

This was further emphasized when Clan Ice hellion in it's infinite brilliance launched an invasion of Jade Falcon's IS holdings. The plan backfired, because even though the clan was already fighting the Lyrans, Wobbies, and an insurrection by a disturbingly large number of scientists, Ice hellion had failed to consider the fact that some of the IS civilians might not like having a new set of clan rulers and the hellions expierienced the same problems that the Invaders had decades before (which for a clan that focuses on speed is frankly damming).

2. Sibko Relations: While there is a certain logic to it, I don't think anyone will argue that it isn't rather creepy.

3. dealing with losses: the biggest problem with building a force as elite and streamlined as the clan's touman, is that when they suffer truly devestating losses, they don't have established ways of recovering from said losses. During the 3050's, clans SJ, JD and Wolf all suffered catastrophic losses either due to the invasion or the refusal war (in clan wolf's case, a chunk of their territory and touman was split off to form a new clan by ulric kerensky).

While Wolf and Falcon were able to reover their losses by engaging in "harvest trials" (which allowed some clans to dispose of politically undesirable elements and/or strengthen ties to the clans in question), Smoke jaguar's pride prevented them from doing so and left them holding a vast ammount of territory and nowhere near enough people to defend it. While Lincoln Osis had a spark of brilliance in the creation of protomechs, the clan simply didn't have the time to implement them before operation bulldog and task force serpent killed the clan.

4. Combined arms: The clans utilize far less varied military forces then the IS; Mech's, elementals, and aerospace are all that a frontline galaxy generally contains. In comparison, an IS regiment will usually contain mechs, conventional infanry, mechanized infanty, battle armor squads, tanks, artillery, aquatic naval craft, mechs, helicopters, conventional aircraft and aerospace craft. As a result, the IS has a more complete set of tools with which to engage the enemy then a comparably sized clan force.

5. Intelligence: The clans border on being comically inept as espionage agents, and the various intelligence agencies of the IS strike at them with nigh impunity.

6. Players who don't give a rats *** about the lore: The reson why clan tech is inherently better from a game play stand point is because it facilitates a different style of play; the dueling style of the clans, so nothing irritates me quite so much as when people want clan weapons without having any intention of playing the way the way they're supposed to. Sadly, these people seem to be as common as ticks on a stray dog.

7. Stupid arguement magnets: I swear to god, there are more stupid arguements that come out about them and people deliberately ignoring written facts about them in order to try and score points then any other group in the entirety of the battletech combined. Christ, the cappellans generate less drama and they're most famous for having an insane ruling family and hordes of mindlessly loyal citizens (which is ironically something that people try and hammer the clans with on a regular basis).

Those are the ones that immediately come to mind as reasons to dislike the clans.