605 replies to this topic

[INSEkT L0GIC]

Mostly I preferred the look of the IS (mostly unseen) mechs to the clan omnimechs. Too many pipe cleaner legs & popeye arms for my tastes. I like mechs that looked like they could take a beating and dish one out instead of looking like fragile toys.

[Joanna Conners]

Merchant, on 26 March 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Because the Clans were the second biggest mistake in BattleTech dumping in a whole bunch of superior technology too much, too fast. I prefer gradual tech advancements.

Also it is representative of a problem with several games when it was done, that problem being that some game companies felt they had to have big world/universe shaking events to generate interest in the game. This led to players trying to keep up and if you preferred a different time period you were left in the cold with hardly anyone to play because of the belief you MUST play in the 'current' time.

The first big mistake was the 20 year jump from the 4th Succession War to just before the Clans arrived. Would have loved to play through the tech upgrades and events like the 3039 War but no, they just made it a footnote.

I really don't care. The Clans are why MechWarrior is an amazing spin-off franchise for PC gaming.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

Pariah Devalis, on 26 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

In regards to the 'lower castes,' if memory serves both Clan Ghost Bear and Nova Cat never had to deal with the Society (or, at least, not in any significant way) due to proactive inclusionary practices. The former due to their family based structure, the later because they were not idiots and realized the person who feeds the army is (almost) as important as the person who defends the farms. Then you have clans like Diamond Shark that are essentially militarized merchants anyways. The treatment of non-warrior castes is not so standard across the clans.

Nova Cats didn't have to deal with the Society because their banishment created a buffer between them and the Homeworlds. WIE didn't need to deal with it very much at all either.

But don't go saying the Nova Cats are somehow different from everyone else. Even the background for the Thunderbird BA has the CNC Khan summarily executing scientists for underperforming (in his opinion), even though the product of their research was successful! The only reason they don't treat their lower castes as poorly as everyone else is the influence of Kuritan culture, where Clan warriors aren't allowed to treat civilians as chattel.

[Pariah Devalis]

Zharot, on 27 March 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

Nova Cats didn't have to deal with the Society because their banishment created a buffer between them and the Homeworlds. WIE didn't need to deal with it very much at all either.

But don't go saying the Nova Cats are somehow different from everyone else. Even the background for the Thunderbird BA has the CNC Khan summarily executing scientists for underperforming (in his opinion), even though the product of their research was successful! The only reason they don't treat their lower castes as poorly as everyone else is the influence of Kuritan culture, where Clan warriors aren't allowed to treat civilians as chattel.

Oh. Hey. It is a dark age piece *Fluff. Which, incidentally, comes AFTER the merger with the Combine, which stands in direct conflict with your second point that they were influenced by the Combine culture. I do not blame you for that, but realize that the background starting in the Dark Ages is so poorly written, so full of inconsistencies, there is a good reason some of us refuse to acknowledge it. Furthermore, perhaps I am blind, but I see no such statement that he executed the design team, and that is something that would be considered loathsomely wasteful in clan society to the point of insanity. In any clan. If, however, you can produce the quote, source, etc, of that particular gem, I will of course cede that the khan did that, but it does not reflect on the normal or accepted behavior for a Khan in any Clan, let alone the Nova Cats - which once again falls back into the ridiculous writing from the Dark Age era.

(*I make a special case for the Society, as it is repeatedly hinted at well before the change in ownership happened and Dark Ages began, making it original fluff. Incidentally, agents were said to be present in all the clans to greater or lesser extent, and being cut off from the rest of Clan space does not mean they were not effected at all.)


Also, saying the Draconis Combine does not treat their civilians as chattel, a word that keeps getting thrown around here so much I feel like posting the "I don't think it means what you think it means" video, is hilarious. Ignoring the normal background feudalism inherent in all the Successor States, which as a civilian can make life pretty damned brutal beyond that which a common Clan tech, merchant, or scientist is forced to deal with even in the more crusader of the clans, you are talking about an Inner Sphere civilization which has such a low value for the life of any individual beyond the coordinator that ritualized suicide is an accepted and even expected practice, even among the non-civilians, for slips of duty. Suicide being acceptable for Clanners is generally limited to solhoma units, and in the Nova Cats seeing older pilots in the front lines is yet another one of their noted peculiarities (though, eventually, they are also expected to die in a blaze of glory).

And they absolutely ARE different. How many clans are willing to lose 1/5 of their fighting forces just to buy time for their civilians to escape? Likely, just the Ghost Bears and the Diamond Sharks. How many clans are willing to give their merchant castes the amount of leeway that they do, aside from the Diamond Sharks? Read their economic overview sometime. Furthermore, even their world pacification techniques are, well, passive, erring on the side of appeasement in order to promote stability. They do use a form of the Logistical Augmentation Program, you know. They have no desire to wipe out civilians to make a point.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 28 March 2013 - 05:31 AM.

[Nebelfeuer]

More DMG, less heat problems, more speed, more range, more acuraccy, same max armor = more cheese builds =less fun
Though basically we have a bad enough situation with Star League tech atm...

[PaintedWolf]

Actually there are a lot of cases in the fiction where the common person agrees far more with heavy handed Clan policies then those of the Successor States or Republic:

Quote

Terrorists Die in Firefight

(3 January 3079 )

Stanzach [INN] - Residents of the quiet Hayden Arms estate block in Janetown were rudely awakened this morning by what seemed to be a full-on military assault. Ghost Bear paramilitary police, working in conjunction with local authorities, cordoned off a large section of estate just 0300 hours, and instructed residents to seek shelter.

Unknown to residents at the time, police had tracked Albert Gronvold-Minami, one of the top leaders of the outlawed Motstand movement, to a flat in estate block. On the run after the bombing of the Omni-Paradise Hotel on Ashlain earlier this week, Gronvold-Minami and a small cadre of compatriots decided to fight their way out rather then surrender honorably.

The brief battle saw the exchange of massive amounts of firepower and the near-total destruction of the estate block where the terrorists were holed up. Two more buildings on either side of the block suffered damage as well, and the city safety commission has restricted access to both.Confirmed dead include fourteen terrorists and six paramilitary police. Eight terrorists attempted to surrender to authorities, only to be executed on the spot. Among the dead was Gronvold-Minami himself, who was apprehended while feeling the scene in a stolen car.

Though some legal activists have decried the lack of due process presented in this and similar actions across the Dominion, a majority of native Rasalhagians polled support the summary execution of terrorists. The use of explosives of Blakist origin in the Omni-Paradise tragedy-which killed 378 people, including Unity Council members Christian Mansdottir and Selanna Jorgensson- has turned many citizens against an organization that previously had at least tacit popular support throughout the Dominion.

From Jihad: Final Reckoning

Quote

The tacit level of support for Motstånd from much of the population ended when members of the group engaged in a terrorist incident on the Dominion world of Alshain. The bombing conducted by Motstånd on the 31st of December 3078 struck at the Omni-Paradise Hotel and killed 378 civilians - both Rasalhagian and Clan Ghost Bear in origin - as well as several members of the Unity Council, including Selanna Jorgensson and the former Prince of the Free Rasalhague Republic, Christian Månsdottir. Motstånd used explosives determined to have Word of Blake origins in the attack, which played a factor in the loss of support experienced by the group in the wake of the bombing.^[3][4]

Following the bombing the leaders of Motstånd were pursued aggressively by the Ghost Bears; on the 2nd of January 3079 one of the group leaders, Albert Gronvold-Minami, was killed by Ghost Bear paramilitary police on Stanzach. The press coverage of the death of Gonvold-Minami reported that he and a number of other Motstånd members had holed up in a flat in the Hayden Arms estate block of Janetown, and that when the surrounding area had been cordonned off by the Ghost Bear paramilitary police the terrorists decided to try and fight their way out rather than surrender. The resulting combat devastated the block itself and damaged two other nearby blocks, with a total of 14 terrorists and 6 paramilitary police killed. Gronvold-Minami was evidently apprehended while trying to escape in a car, and he and eight other terrorists who had attempted to surrender were summarily executed at the scene by the police. It was noted that while the summary execution of the terrorists attracted some criticism from legal activists, polls of native Rasalhagians conducted across the Ghost Bear Dominion showed a high level of support for the action taken.^[3][4]

http://www.sarna.net...i/Motst%C3%A5nd

Edited by PaintedWolf, 30 March 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Demona, on 26 March 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

I really don't care. The Clans are why MechWarrior is an amazing spin-off franchise for PC gaming.

Nothing proves that. Mechwarrior 1 was done before the Clans and had the most developed storyline of them all, you were a named character trying to build a Merc unit and seek revenge. Despite what is now the outdated graphics and the 'Uber-Missile' (all missile launchers fired 1 missile that did all the damage), it was fun and had some of the Unseen in it. Can still be found online as Abandonware though you need a DOS emulator to run it. (Still trying to find one I can understand so I can run CHR.)

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

PaintedWolf, on 30 March 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Actually there are a lot of cases in the fiction where the common person agrees far more with heavy handed Clan policies then those of the Successor States or Republic:

Hm. A repressive fascist government, suddenly embraced by the people because of an act of terror.

You don't say.

Edited by Zharot, 31 March 2013 - 10:41 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Zharot, on 31 March 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Hm. A repressive fascist government, suddenly embraced by the people because of an act of terror.

You don't say.

Honestly, it is more like hundreds of acts of terror across the Inner Sphere in which billions of people and entire planets were wiped out, from bio-weapons which were so thorough they would infect even a planet's plant life, to chemicals used to wipe out even small towns, dams being sabotaged and flooding cities, neutron bombs and cobalt-laced fusion-nukes which coated the ground with radioactive salt.

In general, areas under Clan occupation were far more successful at finding and eliminating Blakist cells before they did any damage. And while you might not agree with their form of government (though many people in general prefer the Clan way of settling political disputes quickly and efficiently, as opposed to constant political bickering, infighting and backstabbing and rhetoric.) People get tired of the political games the nobles play, especially when it effects their lives, and they like it when politicians are actually held accountable. In the Clans that means they actually have to defend what they say and allege and accuse by actual combat. They actually have to take risks for the power they wield instead of just standing around and giving orders from the safety of their fancy offices with their fancy suits and luxurious dinners, bleeding the people dry with crushing aristocratic taxes.

The Clans are also not really fascist. That is a point that the Successor States can use as propaganda against the Clans but it is not entirely accurate because they have a very collectivized economy, and their leaders actually have to fight, and they have a very tribal-socialist system. I don't recall Fascist leaders ever being called out to a Trial by Fire or any other form of combat to defend what they say or did. Not every Warrior Culture is a fascist culture, that is like saying Native American or Hindu cultures are fascist.

People like knowing their governments do not let terrorists and criminals go on the basis of lawyering and technicalities. They also like to know that their leaders do not get ahead by political backstabbing and that political issues are settled quickly in a decisive and honest way.

Complain about the Clans all you want, but then I don't want to hear any further nonsense about how you are tired of politics or politicians being corrupt or doing this or doing that. The Clans have a very effective way to keep politicians in check- they can literally be called out and die for what they say or do and there are actually consequences for the games they play- and most live a very spartan lifestyle of constant hardship to stay where they are.

Maybe not everyone agrees, but a lot of people prefer the security and lack of corruption to politics based on who one knows instead of what one does.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 01 April 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Merchant, on 26 March 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Because the Clans were the second biggest mistake in BattleTech dumping in a whole bunch of superior technology too much, too fast. I prefer gradual tech advancements.

The writers always planned to bring the Clans in when they did (even if Stackpole didn't like the Clans) Societies are jump-started when their existing way of life is threatened. The Ones this affected were the leadership of the Inner Sphere. This story isn't like the Foundation Trilogy that allows 10,000 years to fix humanity.

Frankly, the Inner Sphere BT story would have been rather drab without the Clans coming in to shake things up. IMHO.

Your opinion is balanced against probably the same number who prefer the Clans.

as an aside, I think PGI would have been better off just sticking to 3025. Wolf's Dragoons would have been around and the IS couldn't even deal with them very well.

[PaintedWolf]

I think PGI made a good call with the timeline. But then again, I want my Daishi.

[ShadowbaneX]

My personal stance comes from a similar experience from the game Red Orchestra, which was a Eastern Front (Germany vs Russia) WW2 FPS that had combined arms, ie Infantry, Vehicles & Tanks. The Germans frequently had superior equipment in pretty much all areas, especially in the armour (ie Tiger vs T34). I didn't really care which side I ended up with, but there were those that always took the German equipment because it was "superior". Better armour, more powerful weapons, etc, etc.

They loved just to sit back with their superior tech and blow up the Russians all day long. They were also frequently and vocally unhappy when the other side dared to actually fight back, let alone win. Thing is a lot of the reasons for the German historical superiority is that their troops were, you know, trained, and the Russian troops were frequently more used to driving tractors than tanks.

I can see the same happening with the Clans...actually, there's a bit of a connection there as today's ISN News Flash sorta points out. I can easily see the same mentality from RO being used by the Clanners...and to make it worse, the technological superiorty really is there and when those that adopt the Clan mentality start using team work it's going to be nearly impossibly to stop them.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Gremlich Johns, on 01 April 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

The writers always planned to bring the Clans in when they did (even if Stackpole didn't like the Clans) Societies are jump-started when their existing way of life is threatened. The Ones this affected were the leadership of the Inner Sphere. This story isn't like the Foundation Trilogy that allows 10,000 years to fix humanity.

Frankly, the Inner Sphere BT story would have been rather drab without the Clans coming in to shake things up. IMHO.

I just finished reading the Foundation trilogy last month. Seldon Plan fixes humanity in 1,000 years, and one Foundation Novel is worth about half the story of Battletech if not more...

And while we're on Asimov; The foundation trilogy wasn't drab at all and most if not all of it was political manuevers. Difference is one is excellent writing, the other is not.

[Slicerjen]

I used to play on a few battletech MU*'s in the 90's, for those of you old enough to remember mucks and muds, and this was controversial back then. 'Overpowered' was the main thing. Oh yes, you little children who have played consoles, we had OP debated hardware even before xbox times. In all honesty, that part of the argument should die, now that money is associated with this game. If the devs wish to keep people happy, they can't make OP mechs for IS pilots to die to in Clan vs IS fights, because they would lose their playerbase, and thus their revenue. I would say wait and see what happens. I'm kind of excited actually. It will be a return to my old Clan Jade Falcon days from Btech3056 server. And back to you children of the xbox age, you try piloting a mech with typed out macro commands and pictures created with text on a dialup internet. Those were the heady days of a true MechWarrior.

Edited by Slicerjen, 01 April 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

PaintedWolf, on 01 April 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

In general, areas under Clan occupation were far more successful at finding and eliminating Blakist cells before they did any damage. And while you might not agree with their form of government (though many people in general prefer the Clan way of settling political disputes quickly and efficiently, as opposed to constant political bickering, infighting and backstabbing and rhetoric.)

Nobody has ever claimed that repressive fascists aren't good at eliminating their enemies. Especially internal enemies.

[SGT Puddles]

you hate the clans for being op and rolling the innersphere, if that is you play a non-clanner, otherwise you play a clanner and hate everyone that isn't in your clan, especially the innershere for not playing by your rules.

[Koshirou]

PaintedWolf, on 26 March 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

All factions in Battletech suck in some way-

But Clan fanboys try to sell theirs as if it were an actual political system instead of an SF background.

Clans: Stupid and sealed the BTU's descent into hopeless implausibility. But the very basic concept could have worked if done better.

Clan fanboys: Unsalvageable.

[PaintedWolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 01 April 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

I just finished reading the Foundation trilogy last month. Seldon Plan fixes humanity in 1,000 years, and one Foundation Novel is worth about half the story of Battletech if not more...

And while we're on Asimov; The foundation trilogy wasn't drab at all and most if not all of it was political manuevers. Difference is one is excellent writing, the other is not.

I actually find fan fiction to be extremely under-rated and one of the most charming aspects of American culture. I can't think of many other countries that have the volume and quality of sci-fi or fantasy fan fiction, especially based on board games or video games. And I have read a lot of sci-fi, including the entire Foundation-Robot-Empire series, save for the one where they find the Constitution in space because even Asimov said that was his worst piece of work of all time. Also Dune series, Sprawl series (i.e. Neuromancer, etc. ), David Brin's, and I must say many of these Battletech novels are on par, just as many DnD books are easily on par with Tolkien.

Just because a series is fan fiction and not made-up on the spot, does not mean it is lacking for richness, depth or quality.

As for the Clans, I do see some fascistic/negative Soviet elements, Spartan elements within them (some more then others) but I also see some very strong Native American/good socialist/meritocratic elements too.

The Successor States will by and large focus and exaggerate the negative elements, while the Clans and their supporters or those who find them useful may exaggerate or focus primarily on positive qualities.

The truth is not something simplistic like "It is in between maaaan" but more true for some and less for others. The Steel Vipers went completely insane, while Clan Wolf has generally been noble.

As for their effect on fiction, after what? Almost 10 years of Succession Wars the storyline was getting stale. Even Asimov put in the Mule to shake things up, and the Clans did complicate things much to the chagrin of traditionalists but they made the universe much more interesting. What I really like is how it is the reversal of Native Americans and Europe, instead of the latter finding and conquering the new world, the Warrior-Honor Cultures based on totem animals are the ones with superior technology who invade the "civilized" feudal states.

And just like real life, the Native American themed factions are far more honorable.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 02 April 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[guardian wolf]

Koshirou, on 02 April 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

But Clan fanboys try to sell theirs as if it were an actual political system instead of an SF background.

Clans: Stupid and sealed the BTU's descent into hopeless implausibility. But the very basic concept could have worked if done better.

Clan fanboys: Unsalvageable.

Well, I'm glad this went from a flame war of arguing (which where each side tries to be louder than the other) to a nice debate, (where logic, and thought actually enter into the fray) Now, Kosh, please do explain this comment, so that I may be better equipped to have a discussion with you. And yes a lot of Clan fanboys, (I consider myself an exception due to the fact that I now only play Clan against Clan, because being on the Clan side against the IS is, well... dull,) are what most would consider unsalvageable.

[Koshirou]

Don't take it personally, mate. It's just that the attempts to idealize a fictional society like the Clans', a poorly thought out juvenile power fantasy with fascist undertones, get on my nerves, And I note that Clan players tend to do that, unlike - for example - players of medieval-ish RPGs who do not seriously extol the virtues of feudalist monarchies.