Aaron DeChavilier, on 02 April 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:
The problem is two-fold.
-First off, many clan posters seem to post as either some quasi-InCharacter post, or they truly believe the coal they're shoveling. Both of these make discussing the clans outside of the story very hard to do.
So what? Who cares? I mean you are really going to get that bent out of shape about people playing like they are Clanners? How about you don't get your undies in a knot over it? Also what the heck does this have to do with the Clans in lore? You don't like the Clans in the fiction because you don't like some fan boys in real life?
Geez man, you really need to focus on other things.
Aaron DeChavilier, on 02 April 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:
-Second, As many have stated before the "meritocracy" begins and end with the Warrior Caste of clan society. How is a farmer supposed to raise up to the level of Warrior when the cards are physically stacked against him/her? If the farmer was in the Inner Sphere, he could build a business out of his farm, make more money, raise up a notch or two in social status etc. The Inner Sphere governments are feudal at a Nobility level - aka Planetary Governors, System Magistrates, Royal Houses. At the Rich / Middle / Lower class level they are more or less like the societies we have now. Many grant their populaces incredible freedoms that a clan member could only dream of.
Nope, incorrect. Each Caste has Trials relevant to their specific vocation. As noted, Laborers engage in competitions of work, Technicians engineering problems, Scientists intellectual puzzles/exercises. All Castes are subject to Trial within their specific position and this makes it so people are less likely to get ahead or stay ahead by mere inheritance or connections. Of course the system is not perfect, but it is a heck of a lot more fair and meritocratic then the Successor States.
Aaron DeChavilier, on 02 April 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:
As for Native American elements; maybe spiritually, but not really socially or governmentally.
You do realize most Clan governments are atheist? A couple are spiritual, but by and large they are secular cultures.
Aaron DeChavilier, on 02 April 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:
And again, clan government is an autocracy of ruling military lords.
As opposed to pacifist feudal lords? And what is the First Prince? You know I didn't vote for him.
Aaron DeChavilier, on 02 April 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:
Ever wonder why so many dictators in history have risen to power from the military?
32 out of 44 US Presidents have had military experience.....
Aaron DeChavilier, on 02 April 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:
(ex colonels, generals, etc) ever wonder? controlling a populace with the military is far easier than through any other means. The clans are just a council of unchallengeable military dicatators.
Khans get challenged by others all the time actually. Khan Taney of Ice Hellion lost his position to Raina Montose over a Trial. Montose had to fight nearly five Trials to retain her Khan position after the Hellion Debacle. IlKhan Andrews was challenged to multiple trials during the Wars of Reaving. Natasha Kerensky won her Khanship after killing a rival in a Trial where she brought down 4 Mechs, 3 of them single-handedly.
Most Khans fight trials to maintain their position, and many fight on the front-lines. By Clan law Trials of Refusal and other kinds may be called against a Khan, and the Khan hardly has absolute power.
Quote
When the Clan requires military action above the small scale skirmishes that are
Trials of Possession, the
Clan Council becomes a Kurultai (War Council) and it elects from within a council member to become a Khan.
The Khan (though having much more influence) can't interfere with Clan laws/society; that is still in the hands of the Council. He/she is, however, commander of the entire Clan's military assets, including the
touman, and becomes the top of the military hierarchy that doesn’t exist without a Khan.
Khanship is determined by Trial and Khans are challenged to Trials all the time. Whether or not the Trial is accepted is generally determined by the Council. In fact Khans seem to have more checks on their power then House Lords. In fact the majority of important decisions in the Clans is subject to Council vote. For example, whether or not Wolf Dragoon DNA would be allowed into the breeding program- that was subject to Council Vote, not Khan decision.
Aaron DeChavilier, on 02 April 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:
The royal houses of the IS are capricious but can be curbed through social unrest, protest, or economic forces in addition to military / paramilitary action. How does a collective of farmers in clan space initiate a Trial of Refusal against the Warrior Caste when the farmer collective does not like how their grain stores are being distributed? fight the Warrior Caste?
Actually no, in most of the Great Houses the House Lords have more or less final say over any decision. And you can't always protest or bring economic forces to bear. Just try doing any of that in the DCMS and see how far your "social unrest" gets.
In the Clans at least the Warrior Caste has some checks, but in the Successor States the Nobles and Kings don't have any legal checks at all. Arguing that there are possible extra-legal means of, well basically, overthrowing the Great Houses, including "paramilitary and military means" simply means the people can try and attempt treason- and that hasn't changed the general feudal/monarchist structure in centuries, so I'm not sure how effective that is going to be.
Protests? Some Successor States allow it sometimes, (don't expect this to be the CC or DC unless they are state-sponsored) but even then there are strict limits and the governments are not democracies so it doesn't matter.
Social unrest? Basically treason. Secret Police go to your house, no more social unrest. Remember, disobeying the Chancellor can be hazardous to your health.
Economic pressure? Most companies are fronts for the Great Houses. This might be true of House Davion or the Lyran Alliance or FWL more then the CC or DC but in the end you have to keep in mind these are feudal states, not democracies. They don't need money for elections, and actually economic influence over House decisions is practically nil, and business owners are still below the local lord or monarch. I mean if business interests influenced so much, we have to ask why it is the Successor States were allowed to destroy most of their industries and ruin their economies for the 200+ years of the Succession Wars. Did these businesses want to get themselves blown up? I guess the total loss of industry and technology on some worlds did constitute "economic pressure", but I fail to see how placing themselvesin post-apocalyptic environments paints the Successor States in a good light.
You really are talking about the Successor States as though they are democracies. They are feudal states with entrenched systems, absolute dictators, local lords who effectively own planets and a willingness to fight that almost sent them back to the Stone Age. Your portrait of the Clans as war-mongering dictatorships next to the liberal, pacifist democracies of the Great Houses is pretty inaccurate and seems to ignore a lot of things- such as the entire Succession Wars period.
Edited by PaintedWolf, 03 April 2013 - 06:31 PM.
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