605 replies to this topic

[DAYLEET]

Remind me how forcing someone into a duel, when you clearly have better equipement and all odds are on your side, Honorable?

[CyclonerM]

DAYLEET, on 26 January 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Remind me how forcing someone into a duel, when you clearly have better equipement and all odds are on your side, Honorable?

This is why we bid away 'Mechs.
However, it is not our fault if you bombed yourselves back in the Stone Age, as the Great Father predicted..

[CoffiNail]

DAYLEET, on 26 January 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Remind me how forcing someone into a duel, when you clearly have better equipement and all odds are on your side, Honorable?

Forcing? How is performing your life's training and bringing honor to the Clan dishonorable? Do you even know what honorable means?

How is having two, three or even a whole lance targeting one opponent and giving him no chance to prove his skills as a MechWarrior? Neg, a duel is where one finds out who has the better pilots. Honor is about one who has more skill than one who has the better equipment, quiaff?

We bid away mechs, as posted above. Not only, but if one side does have greater numbers, the warrior who reached the party last may have to wait their turn to possibly finish off a damaged opponent. We also have our trials take place away from innocent lower caste, who have no place in trials, and this keeps our infrastructure alive.

Which is more honorable:
Total war, where cities, bridges, spaceports, etc are fair game, to limit the enemy's ability to make war. Even if it is a military target, it often has civilians in some form, plus warriors who have no chance to defend themselves.
or
Zellbrigen Dueling, where the duel takes place in a field, forest, mountain, etc. Away from any civilian population, or any infrastructure. Where each warrior gets to fight against a single opponent, most of the time on equal tonnage. Where the Clan with more skilled warriors win. No one interferes with a duel, the two warriors get to prove their abilities.

[Ninjivitis]

Just a brief glance at what those who follow the inner sphere say about the Clans tells me everything. Most freeborn simply do not understand the Clans, or have a warped view of who and what we are. Understandably so, since they have been at war with each other for so long, both abusing and being abused by dishonorable tactics and using underhanded tricks to attain victory at any cost.

I could go on about the virtues of clan society and the code of our warriors, but it would be wasted breath. If the inner sphere wanted to know us, they would make an effort to learn our ways and perhaps might have a little more respect. I truly pity them.

[Krujiente]

I hate the clans because they have rather dumb rules of engagement that makes the strategy game that is battle tech hard for Clan-players to actually use strategy. These RoEs were a balancing act for the crazy-good clantech though.

Clan-fanboys want their tech as strong as it is in Battletech but would never EVER actually follow the stupidly chivalric and tactic-hating clan rules of engagement. Hell some battletech players I knew played exclusively clan tech but ignored the rules because they were only fighting other clanners, which is another level of dumb. You get the point though.

[CyclonerM]

Krujiente, on 26 January 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Clan-fanboys want their tech as strong as it is in Battletech but would never EVER actually follow the stupidly chivalric and tactic-hating clan rules of engagement.

Point taken. That is not true for everyone. I can swear on my honor that I, Pariah Devalis, Jaroth Corbett, Shar Wolf, Zerberus, Joseph Mallan with his Star Adders would follow Zellbrigen rules if implemented in the game or if we faced a particularly honorable Inner Sphere opponent.

Honor is for the honorable.

[Jaroth Corbett]

CyclonerM, on 26 January 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

This is why we bid away 'Mechs.
However, it is not our fault if you bombed yourselves back in the Stone Age, as the Great Father predicted..

Using my words I see, Cycloner. It is a slippery slope

[Jaroth Corbett]

DAYLEET, on 26 January 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Remind me how forcing someone into a duel, when you clearly have better equipement and all odds are on your side, Honorable?

How about we announce we are coming, arrive, hold off attacking while giving you time to get your troops together & work out a defence plan rather than sneak attacking you in the dead of night like dezgra surats for you to awaken to explosions, your mechs, fighters, technicals destroyed, your cities burning & your civilians killed before you can put on a robe or get into your bunny slippers? Add that to the fact that we tell you in advance what forces we will be bringing, then bid down said forces to a smaller amount & choose a field of battle where civilians will not be in harm's way?



Your inablilty to grasp this makes my case for me. Honor is for the honorable.

P.S. You sound like the French at the start of the Hundred Years War when the English first broke out the Longbow. Were the English less honorable because their craftsmen made a bow that had a longer range? Was it the fault of the English that the French sat on their ***? I think not.

Oh **** I double posted. Sorry.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 27 January 2014 - 05:30 AM.

[Oogalook]

Wow. This thread gets pretty heated.

I haven't read much of the Battletech lore, but I have my opinions. I dislike the Clans, largely because theirs is a war for glory rather than of necessity. If Battletech were written into a film or other linear work, it would be hard to cast the clans as the glorious protagonists when they attack otherwise-peaceful worlds with vastly superior weaponry to that of the defenders. As the arms race continues, the Inner Sphere comes to a more evenly-matched state with the Clanners- the underdog is coming back!

In game terms, I feel that the Clan invasion has a great possibility to utterly ruin everything. I see two paths by which it could do so.

First, the Clan mechs could be superior to the Inner Sphere mechs in every way. Or, really in any way. Even with heat scaling off the charts, the players who run Clan mechs would dominate most every game and rake in vastly better scores than the good old boys. I have 15 in the barn, and I love every one. If they become outmodes or even just second-class citizens, I will stop playing this game. I've sunk many hours and dollars into my current lineup, and I refuse to move on unless they remain totally viable on the battlefield.

The second risk I see is almost as dangerous. The presence of Clan mechs could divide the fanbase and all the players therein- dramatic, yes, but I have some very good friends I'd hate to lose. This division I predict would arise if PGI arranged balanced matches such that one side consisted of Inner Sphere and the other of some smaller number of Clan mechs. It would then be impossible for two players in different types of mechs to play together, meaning that it would be difficult to run side-by-side with any player who takes to the new mechs more heartily than you. I don't want to be cut off from my buddies.

The only way for this game to survive the Clan Invasion is if Clan mechs are good, yes, but are individually not superior to a comparable Inner Sphere mech. Perhaps their armor could be made of cardstock and their limbs of celery. Perhaps they could only fire one set of weapons at a time- say, a Timber Wolf could fire its LRM 20s, but would then have to flip some switch and wait some time before firing its lasers. Perhaps, were melee implemented (PLEASE PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE PGI!), the Inner Sphere mechs could beat up on the competition in a satisfying fashion.

I have no personal hatred of Clanners or their fans on the internet. I'm just scared that my investment in this game could be made worthless by a single update.

[pbiggz]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 25 January 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

Fascism is nationalist socialism (even {Godwin's Law} means National Socialist). Economically-speaking facist regimes often bear more resemblence to faux-capitalist communist regimes than they do to any true capitalist system. Tycoons and such might "own" the means of production, but the state dictates what is produced, at what price, and to whom it is sold. Both Fascism and Communism are hyper-statist, and the Clans basically subsume the entire culture into the state. They have a merchant caste, who technically "own" the means of production, but the warrior caste dictates what they can do. That seems to track very nicely to a fascist system.

Obviously they aren't a perfect match, but considering the Clan ideology of the state (the state is all powerful, everyone must sacrifice for the state, and everything that everyone does is done on behalf of the state), I'd classify them as more fascist than anything else.

The jist I'm trying to get at with my post is that fascist regimes are almost exclusively built to make someone wealthy, and communist regimes are built to make someone powerful. (The fact is wealth and power are one and the same, so the more extreme left or right you go, the more the two sides start to look the same, its a curious side-effect of dictatorship).

I can see where you are coming from, but I would very much call the clans socialist and not fascist, as nicholas' goals were to create a state that would be immune to the desire for money and power.

Quite frankly, in the real world, I believe this to be impossible, this is the folly of communism and fascism. Neither system works, especially when you introduce the human element, which is by it's nature, flawed.

[Krujiente]

CyclonerM, on 26 January 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Point taken. That is not true for everyone. I can swear on my honor that I, Pariah Devalis, Jaroth Corbett, Shar Wolf, Zerberus, Joseph Mallan with his Star Adders would follow Zellbrigen rules if implemented in the game or if we faced a particularly honorable Inner Sphere opponent.

Honor is for the honorable.

Edit: I misread that, you said that if they were ingame implemented you'd follow them regardless, that largely rendered what I was talking about redundant. Ooooh well.

See, they had to follow those rules even if their enemy didn't, it was a balancing act. Of course I am going to shoot you in the back and flank, but I also have, even with custom-modified to higher levels of IS-tech: an inferior machine compared to table-top clan-tech. Now with Ferro-Fibrous & Endosteel being stuck on clanmechs (I believe its been too long) I don't see em being able to yank out enough slots to have a huge cooling boost. The much lighter equipment and lack of slots creates a cooling concern even with double crit slot heatsinks though. With the cooling system currently in place... haha using a lot of things would be difficult.
Clanners in fluff also competed with eachother on who could accomplish the most with the least tonnage. I don't think we'll see much of that unless weight restrictions are a thing (hahahahaha... oh)
However, I really just don't want to get snuck by timberwolves with a giant engine and dual LRM20 launchers at point blank range, is one issue I have with seeing clantech. I already have to deal with that **** from Poptarts but at least I can outbrawl them with speed (and help, unless they have non-erPPCs).
I would love to see the clanners get access to targeting computers, having a bead would be pretty cool.

Edited by Krujiente, 27 January 2014 - 02:54 AM.

[SaltBeef]

Well according to battletech lore most of the houses and all of the clans fall in line of oligarchy, totalitarian, Upper caste elite rulers. Kingships and royalty Peons and surfs. That is why there are so many pirates. The clans were themselves the biggest of hypocrits leaving because of war divided houses and then returning to become what they were trying to prevent. Inner sphere were a bunch of self house servers trying to screw the next house over and over and over. Kerensky left with all of the best mechs and tech and troops. The inner sphere blasted themselves repeatedly into oblivion and corruption with what was left. Meahwhile the clans bread for war and tried thier troop tactics on each other in limited scirmishes for property and tech and dominance. The inner sphere was rolled for a reason and the clans rolled themselves the same way the british did during the american revolutionary war they had rules to follow. They were outnumbered like the Germans in WW2.They could have pushed for terra and took the whole galaxy if they had only cast thier rules aside and saw the bigger picture.

Edited by SaltBeef, 27 January 2014 - 03:47 AM.

[Stormwolf]

SaltBeef, on 27 January 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

They could have pushed for terra and took the whole galaxy if they had only cast thier rules aside and saw the bigger picture.

It wouldn't work due to the division between Wardens and Crusaders, casting out the rules would have probably led to a Crusader/Warden war in the Kerensky Cluster.

[CyclonerM]

Stormwolf, on 27 January 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

It wouldn't work due to the division between Wardens and Crusaders, casting out the rules would have probably led to a Crusader/Warden war in the Kerensky Cluster.

And who said a massive Refusal War might not have helped ?

[SaltBeef]

What amazes me is how the clan could even come together under the ILKhan for an invasion!. I mean when the Smoke jags were getting rolled against the 10 yr peace agreement they should have pushed into the Draconis Combine together ( all clans ) cutting off the invasion force smashing the combine and then pushing into Davion / Steiner territory. The HPG's would have let them all know what was going on. Resumed the Invasion. They still would have won. They had all the Powerful warships, jump capability. They were to stuck on their own clan flavor to look at the whole picture wardens or not. When I play clan I will not be warden.

[CyclonerM]

SaltBeef, on 27 January 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

I will not be warden.

So are you a Crusader?

[Kael Posavatz]

There are lots of reasons why people hate the Clans, both in-lore and in the illusion we call 'real life'.

In RL: the Clans are a communal society (not getting into debate of Communist vs. Fascist) inspired by Plato's Republic. When BT was first created communism was still seen as a serious threat (it wasn't, but its collapse took nearly everyone by surprise. Short version, CIA was reading USSR's internal economic reports which turned out to be lie built on distortion built on lie but that everyone 'knew' was factual).Yes, the Clan Invasion came after the fall of the Berlin Wall, but it was still recent enough to cause a serious backlash among a small demographic.

There are also, of course, those that simply preferred the pre-invasion game. Part of this is a very human resistance to change. Part of it was that some saw the challenges presented by the pre-invasion to be more fun, or considered the Clan's advantages to be to overwhelming and threw down their sourcebooks in disgust. Or... most of this list has been posted already.

In-game? Well, the IS was like a giant dysfunctional family had bee fighting amongst itself for a couple of centuries and the Clans were the bullies from down the block who decided to interfere.

Those who learned the truth of the origins of the Clans and had some knowledge of history (probably not many, considering how many people today lack or ignore a sense of history) accuse their ancestors of mutiny and desertion (the former is debatable since they were following orders, probably a better charge would be barratry, gross misconduct of senior officers) and blame them for all of the war, tech-backslide, chaos, destruction and suffering the IS had seen for the last quarter-millennia (also debatable, before the coup the SLDF was the largest, best-trained, and best equipped military in the IS by a considerable margin. The Coup and its aftermath left them the most experienced military, but much of their equipment edge and numerical superiority had been bled away. One or Two house militaries may have been doable, five were not).

And then there is the little fact that the Clans were virtually created to be hateable. They are the Enemy that could cause all of the IS to set aside their differences and unite even for a brief span of time. They are the unquestioned heavies in this little drama. They are genetically engineered supermen with weapons the IS has never seen (battle armor) and those that are familiar are generations beyond anything the IS has (sort of like an F22 vs Me 262, or maybe a Leopard 2 vs a circa WWI British Mark V tank). That they are still disliked by so many of the BT community is simply a demonstration of the skill with which they were designed.

And on side note. Personally I think far too many people in the Clans were overestimating the ease of Operation Revival, and not just in the operational phase (which they were and we all saw the result) but also in the end phase. As a whole the Clans put far too much significance on capturing Terra, with the unstated expectation that resistance would simply collapse once the Home World had been liberated/conquered. Quite honestly I would expect the IS to go down fighting, trading space and lives for time to re-equip and train their militaries with advanced technology. Even trading at a hundred to one (assuming such losses could be maintained) the IS would have bled out the cream of the Clans' toumans. In the end the Clans would have been forced to garrison every planet, moon, space station and asteroid mining facility in the IS and they would not have had the bodies to do it.

[Odanan]

I personally dislike the whole "might makes right" Clan philosophy.

I mean, they have a dictatorial society and pretty fascists ideas.

They might be more "honest" than the "treacherous" IS barbarians, but even Capellan Confederation is a heaven of freedom if you compare with the Clans...

[Odanan]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 25 January 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Why do I dislike the Clans?

1 - Nicholas Kerensky was an egomaniacal madman, and his ideas were both incredibly radical and entirely unprecedented, yet somehow he managed to convince a sufficiently large portion of what should have been one of the most conservative groups of people in the galaxy (the loyalist soldiers of the Star League Defense Force) to reject centuries of tradition and practice, all of their fundamental political ideals, and even most of their underlying philosophical tenets, in order to create a fascist warrior-centric caste system that glorified warfare, vilified the family, and made trial by combat the default judicial process.

2 - The Clans are a caste system. Seriously, they voluntarily adopted a freaking caste system. How foolish and short-sighted do you have to be to think that a caste system is ever a good idea (even those societies in our time that have one only do so on account of legacy issues, and all of the successful ones are doing what they can to move away from it).

3 - Disagree with a policy? Trial by combat. Dislike somebody? Trial by combat. Covet something? Trial by combat.

4 - Warriors uber alles. If you aren't a warrior you don't matter. Sure, some Clans were more forward thinking and "liberal" in their attitudes (Wolverine, anyone?), but they were rare exceptions. One of the more prominant ones, the Coyotes, even became the secret big-bad of the setting simply because they objected to wholesale ******** once it became institutionalized during the Wars of Reaving.

5 - Test-tube babies are the only babies. If you aren't tailor-made from a genetic slurry drawn from a few people who managed to get themselves killed in sufficiently flashy ways, then you clearly don't matter. Natural birth is disgusting and inferior, and Kerensky forfend if we allow anything other than genetic purity to inform the development of future generations.

6 - Zellbrigen. It's not okay to defend your home and your family to the utmost, but it is okay to bombard a civilian population from orbit if that population has a few people trying to defend their homes and families to the utmost. It's not okay to use clever tactics to make up for disparity in numbers or technology, but it is okay to use radically superior technology to wipe out people who you haven't even informed that you are at war with.

There are other reasons, but those are some of the easiest ones for me to list.

This. ^

[Tannhauser Gate]

Krujiente, on 26 January 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

I hate the clans because they have rather dumb rules of engagement that makes the strategy game that is battle tech hard for Clan-players to actually use strategy. These RoEs were a balancing act for the crazy-good clantech though.

Clan-fanboys want their tech as strong as it is in Battletech but would never EVER actually follow the stupidly chivalric and tactic-hating clan rules of engagement. Hell some battletech players I knew played exclusively clan tech but ignored the rules because they were only fighting other clanners, which is another level of dumb. You get the point though.

Unfortunately.. I agree with this. As much as Id love to see lore influence our battles, its not going to happen unless pgi creates game mechanics that use / reward lore-based ROEs.

What Id like to see, Pgi keeping the current queues (pugs and 2-12) as they are and evolve them normally but add new queues or lobby options where players can drop in duels, COEs, and bid in battles