605 replies to this topic

[Stormwolf]

Ashla Mason, on 03 February 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

2. Sibko Relations: While there is a certain logic to it, I don't think anyone will argue that it isn't rather creepy.

The Sibko's in Clan wolf are mixed from various bloodnames, so it's not nearly as creepy.

Many people will often say that there's inc€st going on in the Clans, but the genetic milkshake created by the scientists makes you wonder how many genes they actually have in common.

Quote

6. Players who don't give a rats *** about the lore: The reson why clan tech is inherently better from a game play stand point is because it facilitates a different style of play; the dueling style of the clans, so nothing irritates me quite so much as when people want clan weapons without having any intention of playing the way the way they're supposed to. Sadly, these people seem to be as common as ticks on a stray dog.

Yeah, I hate these people as well. I personally wouldn't piloting old Star League designs (most notably ones used during Op Klondike).

Edited by Stormwolf, 03 February 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[CoffiNail]

Stormwolf, on 03 February 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

The Sibko's in Clan wolf are mixed from various bloodnames, so it's not nearly as creepy.

Many people will often say that there's inc€st going on in the Clans, but the genetic milkshake created by the scientists makes you wonder how many genes they actually have in common.

Not only that, but one of the main reasons for the '******' stigma is not so much of, 'hey that is your brother/sister' it is more due to the issues of reproduction and inbreeding. The Clan Warrior caste are born in to birth control. The scientist caste has it so the warrior's cannot reproduce, there for the Clan warrior caste does not need to worry about inbreeding, and the stigma is not there.

Yeah, it has a shade of creepy from our rl, 2013 perspectives. The Clans, not creepy at all!

[Gammanoob]

Ophidian, on 03 February 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Secondly, why have a thread about people disliking Clanners....in a Clanner part of the forum, where most of the population are made up of Clanners? That's hardly objective.

Well the way I see it it makes more sense to discuss the Clans in the Clan section as opposed to any other forum section.

Edited by Gammanoob, 03 February 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[Ashla Mason]

Gammanoob, on 03 February 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Well the way I see it it makes more sense to discuss the Clans in the Clan section as opposed to any other forum section.

Personally, I like the idea of a thread where people can come and vent their spleen, so that people who like the clans can have their threads unmolested.

[AdultPuppetShow]

I love their mechs, hate their society.

[Implacable]

MischiefSC, on 03 February 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Assassinations, sabotage, IEDs and that sort of warfare has been going on since there have been people in some form or another. We just have better media coverage of it now and western states are seeing it more. Ask the Soviets what they thought of Afghanistan in the 80s, they dealt with suicide bombers and IEDs.

The dramatic advantage of that is the war of attrition and that's where the clans would get walked all over. yes, they had infantry but not many. Same with mech warriors. Too few. Dealing with invasions of tiny nations of a few million people involves more soldiers and personnel then any of the clans fielded - how are they supposed to take and hold planets?

Let me put it to you this way - if, for example, the Clans showed up and invaded Earth with 50,000 soldiers how would that go? Mechs and Elementals or not. You don't sleep in your mech or your armor. Snipers, suicide attacks, carefully placed IEDs and sabotage and solid organization of the same would make a slaughter of it.

Spread that out among hundreds of worlds, heck even dozens of worlds. Each clan couldn't take and hold even a single planet not to mention a dozen. Too few.

It's this illusion that you can only fight people when they're ready to fight and in their mech/armor/whatever. No, you sneak one person who looks like a freeborn janitor in and he steals a crate of LRMs and detonates them in the Elementals barracks. Or he poisons the bottled water the Trueborn mechwarriors are getting. Or he just blows up their food and water supplies. Now they have to take what they can locally and that's a great way to get poisoned.

Honestly? It's this illusionary idea that just because someone is a tough soldier he is ALWAYS, at any time and no matter what, a match for 10 other people.

It doesn't work like that. A pair of 2 man sniper teams would kill half the elite mechwarriors of the clan force while they were in the chow line one morning, then fade and do it again next week.

That's what irks me about the whole thing. That in order to make it realistic at all you have to have this enforced stupidity where, really, all the KILLING only takes place in mechs and such. That nobody has to eat, go to the bathroom, get out and walk around, chat with friends or have down-time.

The Clans are a deus ex machina. They are utterly artificial in construct and only function in the fiction by pretending that somehow all the ways that any civilization out of the bronze age would kick their behinds just doesn't happen.

Umm, before everyone gets too buttclenchy and armchair-generally, I'd like to point out that in the battletech lore most warfare since the Ares Conventions were revived again isn't "total" in the way we understand it, and that in a weird way the "limited war" is kind-of maybe in a sense, if you squint and are conccussed (Oh I'm gonna get flamed for this anyway...) similar to a clan-like trial to decide who owns what. It's not really about who has the raw power, it's more about who can be SEEN to be scary - hence why Steiner has the largest industrial base (I think Marik may be be better, but they keep killing each other) but is considered to have one of the worst armies, because the at the core it's all intimidation and prestige rather than ACTUAL military power.

And in general (there are times when people get peeved enough to act like you say) most average Joes on a planet don't care who wins, it's just a different person under a different flag overtaxing them.

Willing suspension of disbelief; if you pick too much at one bit of the picture, the whole lot collapses

Stormwolf, on 03 February 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

The Clans have better gear, the IS has the numbers.

IMO, the only viable matchup for MWO would be 5 Clan mechs vs 8 IS mechs.

I remember reading that IS commanders believed 2:1 was parity, and would throw entire battalions at Clan companies.

I think playing as a Clanner going up against a horde of IS mechs could be fun ^^.

Oh, and I don't hate ALL the clans, Ghost Bear and Diamond Shark seem cool and relatively uncrazy, maybe Wolf too, but they seem a bit mary-sueish for me to take seriously.

Edited by Implacable, 03 February 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[Implacable]

Ashla Mason, on 03 February 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

6. Players who don't give a rats *** about the lore: The reson why clan tech is inherently better from a game play stand point is because it facilitates a different style of play; the dueling style of the clans, so nothing irritates me quite so much as when people want clan weapons without having any intention of playing the way the way they're supposed to. Sadly, these people seem to be as common as ticks on a stray dog.

The sweetest irony is that this is an IS attitude ^^

Now a Cauldron-Born with Clan LBX-10s in a Solaris match? Yes please (I tried it *Once* in an ordinary MW4M mission, and it got slagged in short order without killing much ^^' )

Edited by Implacable, 03 February 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[Mike Silva]

The only reason the Clans were successful at all is because they were masters of blitzkrieg warfare. They took an unprepared enemy by surprise and was able to use a smaller army made up of higher tech weaponry to advanced very quickly.

But then they fought a prepared foe, and they lost, and were never really successful again because they just didn't have the numbers or resources.

If anything I'm annoyed by the Clans because it was a jump-the-shark moment for the Battletech universe. But given where it went, it was only the first of a series of many such jump-the-shark moments the writers had in store for us.

[Ashla Mason]

Mike Silva, on 03 February 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

The only reason the Clans were successful at all is because they were masters of blitzkrieg warfare. They took an unprepared enemy by surprise and was able to use a smaller army made up of higher tech weaponry to advanced very quickly.

Not really? Surprise was valuable, but at the time when the clans arrived the IS had been at relative peace for roughly 10 years so it wasn't as though the Combine, FRR and Fedcom were incapable of deploying troops to stop them, and when they did hardened veterans got decimated because they were trying to hold static positions (Lyrans), deploying inadequate defences (FRR) or fighting the clans on their terms (Combine). Further, they were still a force to be reckoned with in 3052, long after the initial surprise would have worn off.

Also, During the Fed Com civil war, J*had and dark ages time periods the Falcons were able to carve considerable portions out of the Lyran commonwealth and Threaten the Republic of the sphere.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Gammanoob, on 02 February 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

So Why Do People Dislike The Clans?

Thanks to Wolf no. 983,597 for providing the impetus for this thread! I am hoping we can have an objective and bias free discussion of why exactly many people have come to dislike the clans.

Remember to avoid personal attacks and when/if possible provide proper citation of sources used.

Regards,
Gammanoob, Zulu, Pirate of the Inner Sphere and Liberator of Clan Tech.

I don't know. I'm trying to save them from themselves but they don't like me. ='(

Edited by Natasha Kerensky, 03 February 2013 - 08:46 PM.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Mike Silva, on 03 February 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

The only reason the Clans were successful at all is because they were masters of blitzkrieg warfare. They took an unprepared enemy by surprise and was able to use a smaller army made up of higher tech weaponry to advanced very quickly.

But then they fought a prepared foe, and they lost, and were never really successful again because they just didn't have the numbers or resources.

If anything I'm annoyed by the Clans because it was a jump-the-shark moment for the Battletech universe. But given where it went, it was only the first of a series of many such jump-the-shark moments the writers had in store for us.

Huh? Please get your lore straight. Clans had superior technology in the beginning and mechwarriors breed for battle. They never sneak attack anybody, they fight honorably and announce the numbers that they are bringing. The Inner Sphere scumbags took advantage of this and did hit and runs, traps, artillery strikes, attacking with overwhelming numbers, etc to win.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

objective dislike? their wargear breaks the game.
Every piece just flat out does better than the IS, with 0 downsides. I don't care about lore explanations, I care about game mechanics. The fact that there is a faction in a game that has no actual game mechanic flaws is depressing. It attracts the power gamers and munchkins, just like Space Marines in WH40k do.

Then there are the players who defend the clans like little children. Why is it so easy to rank on them? because they get so insulted when someone points out the obvious fascism and oppression. The IS players already know their system is corrupt, they admit to it, but clan players don't and that is what gets them flak. If clan players just put on a thicker skin, or deflected the trolling, they wouldn't get so much of it. Everyone points at the Capellans for being essentailly Space North Korea, and everyone chuckles. Someone calls the clans space commies; and the anger comes out....

[Ashla Mason]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 03 February 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

objective dislike? their wargear breaks the game.
Every piece just flat out does better than the IS, with 0 downsides. I don't care about lore explanations, I care about game mechanics. The fact that there is a faction in a game that has no actual game mechanic flaws is depressing. It attracts the power gamers and munchkins, just like Space Marines in WH40k do.

Clan mechs are gobs more expensive in BV (the base point value by which TT players purchase units) as are their pilots in BT; For the cost of a medium star of mechs (5) I can get a mixed company (12 mechs) of mechs that will stomp the hell out of them, particularly if we are playing with a more stringent honor level that limits their options.

Examples:

The clan 50 ton Nova has a battle value of 2448 in it's primary configuration, A Hunchback has A BV of 1037

A 100 ton dire wolf has a BV of 2341, an Atlas AS7-K (a 3050's retofit with star league era gear) has a BV of 1649

A 30 ton Kit fox has a BV of 1014. A Hussar has a BV of 498

A 70 ton Summoner has a BV of 2314. A grasshopper sits at 1268.

Also: If you think that SM are some sort of cheasy/OP army in warhammer 40k, then you must not have played that much.

[Moromillas]

Just want to clear something up, as a lot of misconceptions seem to be centred around Revival.

A lot of posts I've seen seem to imply that it's about removing the current governments and setting up some sort of totalitarian regime, lol. Maybe they don't know what fascism is, but it doesn't even exist in the clans, not sure where this is coming from. Yes, there are some that would like a proper government set up, (misinterpretation of the Kerensky doctrine) as a way of stopping the "great" houses, which yes I think is wrong. Even if their intentions mean well, it should be the people to govern, tax, etc themselves. Revival isn't really about coming in and taxing the hell of people, or sucking resources dry, or ordering the people around, or some other crazy **** like that, c'mon that's ridiculous.

Lets say, your neighbor has a bunch of people locked up in his house. Once a day, he goes and shoots one of them. If no one else did anything about it, and you had the ability and the means to stop it from happening, I can't understand why anyone would not try and stop it.

Ok, a better way to put it. If someone was beating someone up with a stick. Taking away the stick is not totalitarianism, not fascism, and not taking away their rights. It's just the moral thing to do.

[OfTheDark]

Ashla Mason, on 03 February 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Clan mechs are gobs more expensive in BV (the base point value by which TT players purchase units) as are their pilots in BT; For the cost of a medium star of mechs (5) I can get a mixed company (12 mechs) of mechs that will stomp the hell out of them, particularly if we are playing with a more stringent honor level that limits their options.

The problem, though, is still balance. Clan tech is better, period, with no drawbacks to thier raw stats. Point costing can mitigate this but the problem remains. How will you think the I.S. side will feel when, in a Star vs. Company fight, they are down 2~4 'mechs before thier first kill of a match? Even if they ultimately win the match it can overall be a fairly aggravating battle.

And Zellbrigen balancing things out? Yeah good luck hard-coding that into the game...cause...you know...you'll really be able to rely on players voluntarily following it...

Make no mistake: I am squarely on the side of the Clans and will be joining up as soon as Blood Spirit is available. That said I still would rather have Clan tech be balanced and this game to continue for many, many years...If the devs can do that? We'll have to see...

[Ashla Mason]

OfTheDark, on 03 February 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

The problem, though, is still balance. Clan tech is better, period, with no drawbacks to thier raw stats. Point costing can mitigate this but the problem remains. How will you think the I.S. side will feel when, in a Star vs. Company fight, they are down 2~4 'mechs before thier first kill of a match? Even if they ultimately win the match it can overall be a fairly aggravating battle.

And Zellbrigen balancing things out? Yeah good luck hard-coding that into the game...cause...you know...you'll really be able to rely on players voluntarily following it...

Make no mistake: I am squarely on the side of the Clans and will be joining up as soon as Blood Spirit is available. That said I still would rather have Clan tech be balanced and this game to continue for many, many years...If the devs can do that? We'll have to see...

Zell is less hard to incorporate then most people tend to think; you simply have the game penalize players when they engage in indirect fire, firing on an already engaged target, changing your target if your first one isn't already destroyed.... you pile these onto a player and he will quickly adjust his style of play to keep credits coming in.

Further, Its important to note that while the clans hit hard, their mechs really aren't that tough to kill (some of their mechs are seemingly made out of childrens dream they're so flipping fragile).

[Kmieciu]

Clanners are like Elves in Warhammer RPG: you hate the lore, but go for the stat bonuses and perks.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Ashla Mason, on 03 February 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Zell is less hard to incorporate then most people tend to think; you simply have the game penalize players when they engage in indirect fire, firing on an already engaged target, changing your target if your first one isn't already destroyed.... you pile these onto a player and he will quickly adjust his style of play to keep credits coming in.

because accidental shots never happen in a game...ever...Everyone hits what they're aiming at all the time...
Another example of how zell doesn't work: Clan players play by zell, IS pugs play as IS pugs - zell is broken in the first 10 seconds because IS dared to use focus fire. Because the IS broke zell, the clan side is now free to operate however the hell they like, thus removing the only' balance' to their tech advantage.

So no, zell in a mechwarrior game isn't 'less hard' to put in.

[Stormwolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 04 February 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

because accidental shots never happen in a game...ever...Everyone hits what they're aiming at all the time...
Another example of how zell doesn't work: Clan players play by zell, IS pugs play as IS pugs - zell is broken in the first 10 seconds because IS dared to use focus fire. Because the IS broke zell, the clan side is now free to operate however the hell they like, thus removing the only' balance' to their tech advantage.

So no, zell in a mechwarrior game isn't 'less hard' to put in.

There is a bit of a learning curve involved here, they'll figure it out eventually.....

[Mike Silva]

Natasha Kerensky, on 03 February 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Huh? Please get your lore straight. Clans had superior technology in the beginning and mechwarriors breed for battle. They never sneak attack anybody, they fight honorably and announce the numbers that they are bringing. The Inner Sphere scumbags took advantage of this and did hit and runs, traps, artillery strikes, attacking with overwhelming numbers, etc to win.

Lore? lol

Didn't sneak attack? Did they declare themselves to the Inner Sphere governments early enough so that they could redeploy their forces to the Clans' invasion corridor? Nope, they rolled up to a planet and said....

Clans: we're going to take your planet, what are you going to defend with?
IS: uh wtf, who are you?
Clans: negotiations over, we send you three fluffy bunnies and two cuddly teddy bears to take your planet, prepare to die
IS: wait, what kind of crazy crap is this? What's a trinary?

That same dialogue probably happened for six months to a year before the IS had any real idea wtf they were dealing with, at which point the war was about a 1/3 of the way over.

But I don't even mind all of that by itself. I only really mind it because the Clans were clearly a result of the Battletech writers running out of good ideas so they did something drastic and lazy. Hundreds of years of Succession Wars and then in 20 years we get socially backwards, evil inbred space commies with unbeatable, magical technology and a bunch of all knowing religious fanatics with nukes.

I enjoy this game for what it is, walking robots with guns, and have ever since I started playing as a kid. But the story-line is kinda dumb.

Edited by Mike Silva, 04 February 2013 - 06:08 AM.