605 replies to this topic

[Koshirou]

PaintedWolf, on 23 March 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

They murdered less people then the Successor States, and their civilians live a higher quality of life, their civilians are not as effected by wars, and their women are incredibly hot (genetic engineering does have its good points. )

Actually, genetically engineering warriors would arguably result in less attractive women (and less attractive men.)

If using the old-fashioned method, attractiveness increases your chances of reproduction because it increases your chances of finding sexual partners. Genetic traits that likely make you more attractive are thus more likely to be passed on.

If using the artificial method the Clans use, and selecting for fighting prowess alone, attractiveness has nothing to do with your chances of reproduction. There is no increased likelyhood of genetic traits predisposing you to higher sexual attractiveness being passed on.

So in my grand series of Things in the BattleTech Universe that don't make any Sense™, part 43 or so, I can add: No, Clanners have no logical reason to be hot.

Edited by Koshirou, 24 March 2013 - 03:36 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Koshirou, on 24 March 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Actually, genetically engineering warriors would arguably result in less attractive women (and less attractive men.)

Depends on the standards used. You are implying that improved aesthetics necessarily entails lower functionality. If that was true, then evolution via natural selection would have made all animals ugly.

Koshirou, on 24 March 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

If using the old-fashioned method, attractiveness increases your chances of reproduction because it increases your chances of finding sexual partners. Genetic traits that likely make you more attractive are thus more likely to be passed on.

If using the artificial method the Clans use, and selecting for fighting prowess alone, attractiveness has nothing to do with your chances of reproduction. There is no increased likelyhood of genetic traits predisposing you to higher sexual attractiveness being passed on.

So in my grand series of Things in the BattleTech Universe that don't make any Sense™, part 43 or so, I can add: No, Clanners have no logical reason to be hot.

Actually they do, they do couple very often. Also certain genes for improved functionality might necessarily be tied to others (often times we have found seemingly unrelated genetic strands to be inter-linked) and last, why would they purposely make their people uglier?

Even if you proved there was no better reason to make them more attractive, that is hardly reason to make them less attractive, and as the fiction notes- there is an incentive. There could also be social reasons for this relating to Mechwarriors being higher ranked, and people more likely to pay attention to them or be willing to accept them if they are more attractive.

Again the entire argument rests on the notion that improved aesthetics necessarily demands lower functionality- there is no reason to believe this.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 24 March 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[Caboose30]

I don't dislike *all* the Clans. Nova Cats are kind of my favorite, actually. They're pretty realistic as far as events in the real world go, and I like their shamanistic belief system.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

PaintedWolf, on 23 March 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

The actual Clans in fiction/lore do have a sense of nobility to them, and their civilians have a higher quality of life.

Higher than what? They are chattel.

[Skylarr]

Can someone please tell me in which novel do they show the warrior caste interacting with the civilian Caste? I know they have the warrior caste saying the civilians are better off, but, that doe not mean anything. The only times I can remember is when the warrior caste, in Mechs, are razing a village because they were either harboring resistance fighters or had assisted them.

[Koshirou]

PaintedWolf, on 24 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Actually they do, they do couple very often.

Yes, but this doesn't result in procreation, hence no relation whatsoever to inherited traits.

Quote

Also certain genes for improved functionality might necessarily be tied to others (often times we have found seemingly unrelated genetic strands to be inter-linked)

Or they might not. In fact, in the cases of Elementals and Aero pilots, they are not. Being grotesquely oversize is not attractive. Being disproportioned and having large eyes is neither (unless you are an Anime character.)

Quote

Again the entire argument rests on the notion that improved aesthetics necessarily demands lower functionality- there is no reason to believe this.

No this argument rested on simple rules of biology which unfortunately are among the many things that BTU writers and their fans didn't understand.

Let's face it: The only reason Clan characters are depicted as attractive is because of some authors' fan-***** for them.

This thread has lacked this for too long anyway:


Starting at 1:32, old mustachio says it like it is with the Clans.

[PaintedWolf]

According to lore aren't the Clans 200 years ahead in technology?

[Joanna Conners]

Skylarr, on 24 March 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Can someone please tell me in which novel do they show the warrior caste interacting with the civilian Caste? I know they have the warrior caste saying the civilians are better off, but, that doe not mean anything. The only times I can remember is when the warrior caste, in Mechs, are razing a village because they were either harboring resistance fighters or had assisted them.

Jade Phoenix trilogy shows a bit.

[Uncle Totty]

Zharot, on 24 March 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Higher than what? They are chattel.

This coming from a Liao?

So much fail.

[Skylarr]

I would not say that Clan citizen are slaves.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

Skylarr, on 24 March 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

I would not say that Clan citizen are slaves.

They are freely gambled or traded. They are executed in the millions to make an abstract political point, or left to die when they are no longer useful. They are compelled to serve in their role or face execution/abandonment. They have little to no self-determination of their own roles, and no role whatsoever in their own government. Their children are trapped in their own parents' lowly place. Even entertainment is black market material at best. In what sense is this not slavery?

Someone compared Clan society to CapCon. Capellan subjects live in a horrible, dystopic dictatorship with few privileges. Nobody with any sense would want to live there, but even they have a better life than Clanners. They can still retain a modicum of self-determination in that they can choose their own employment (although mostly in government-owned industries), are allowed entertainment, are allowed to own property, and can hope for a better life for their children. Clan lower caste members envy serfs in a cartoonishly evil feudal society their freedom. Or they would, if they didn't live in a society where all knowledge of how anyone else lives wasn't carefully concealed from them, for fear of revolution.

[Jack Gallows]

I'll just copy/pasta this from the other thread...

There are things to like and to hate about every faction in Mechwarrior. I can list things I don't like about the I.S., the Clans, Mercs, etc.

Lotta things to like about the different factions, too. There are many Clans I don't mind while some I absolutely hate, and the same goes for the Inner Sphere. I'm big on Davion and Kurita, while also really enjoying the Ghost Bears (Warden).

[Daneiel]

Zharot, on 24 March 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

They are freely gambled or traded. They are executed in the millions to make an abstract political point, or left to die when they are no longer useful. They are compelled to serve in their role or face execution/abandonment. They have little to no self-determination of their own roles, and no role whatsoever in their own government. Their children are trapped in their own parents' lowly place. Even entertainment is black market material at best. In what sense is this not slavery?

Someone compared Clan society to CapCon. Capellan subjects live in a horrible, dystopic dictatorship with few privileges. Nobody with any sense would want to live there, but even they have a better life than Clanners. They can still retain a modicum of self-determination in that they can choose their own employment (although mostly in government-owned industries), are allowed entertainment, are allowed to own property, and can hope for a better life for their children. Clan lower caste members envy serfs in a cartoonishly evil feudal society their freedom. Or they would, if they didn't live in a society where all knowledge of how anyone else lives wasn't carefully concealed from them, for fear of revolution.

I think there isn't perfect society in BT but saying that the clans treat there civilians worse then IS is wrong by my opinion , military actions against the civilians is not well taken by the clans and they take it very seriously - the massacre in Marshall for example every single warrior taken part in that operation was hunted down and killed (if i remember right ) the decapitated body of Star Colonel Riley was sent to Mongooses Khan with message "This is your surkairede . To forgive is expected to forget impossible ". Thats how the clans treat their civilians , on other part the IS can slaughter almost the entire population of one planet to get one person - Kentares massacre for example .You saying that clans civilians don't have rights i will ask what rights has IS civilians .They feared for their life every single day ,every time when they when they see a dropship or mech they don't know is their end has come, the clans way keeps the civilians out of the wars they don't need to fear for their life even is there is battle close to them , also clan technology is not limited only to the military aspects they develop their tech also in the way to improve the life of their civilians , they believe in the unity of their society not the power of few blue blooded people who are treated like GODS , but like the IS society clan society is full of faults .Liking or hating any of the fractions in BT is really hard anyway.

Edited by daneiel varna, 25 March 2013 - 12:22 AM.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

I think as a civilian, if you are not living in one of the premier Davion or Steiner systems, where you can get holo programs, liquer and a reasonable wage, you are screwed. And even in those cases, if a regiment of mechs land on your house, the thing is over...
In some of the lesser known Marik and Capellan Systems you can prolly get away with a lot of things and due to high corruption squeeze in a bit of freedom if you have the C-Bills. This is temporary and bought freedom of course and nobody would want that for a life.
If you are in the draconis combine you are actually pretty good of if you agree to the samurai ruling, as the rule of the samurai is to protect his flock with his life. Now of course you are still a slave, but at least well treated as long as you play along.
I guess it is not much different for many of the clans, as brutality towards the lower castes is generally not well looked upon...

So basically:
This is a game and fiction. I personally would not want to live in any of the BT societies, because lets face it: They are all one dimensional power hungry bi**ches with a huge military budget and idiotic politics.
So while I love big stompy robots and some of the novels are fun to read, the whole idea of such societies is wrong in many ways and not exclusive to the clans wrong.

[drkstarcion]

dal10, on 02 February 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

i just hate how all the clan fanboys say that oh, we have tech, we are invincible. but a freaking 3000 to one (assuming roughly 2 billion clannies and 6 trillion IS with the numbers comeing from jade falcon having 116 million people and me balancing it out at 100 million since most clans are smaller and that i have seen the IS pop estimate thrown around numerous times) disadvantage is near insurmountable.

the clan military is at best in the tens of thousand ranges. you can't have a mech only force in the millions, it is just not feasible to maintain. and since the clans have limited numbers of infantry, due to them hating anything short of elementals, their military might is solely limited to high tech units, which all require manpower to maintain and produce.

so thousands of warriors followed by hundreds of thousands of support personnel then have to be transported something like 1500 light years (if i remember right) that is 50 jumps. at 1 week a piece that runs you nearly a year to get those troops from the cluster to the inner sphere, during this time they must be fed and kept in shape due to zero-g affecting their muscles and bones. on top of the this you are carrying unique munitions and parts (little to no possibility of salvaging enough material to sustain yourself, and if you take heavy losses you have to hope some nearby unit can cover you or you have to order those parts and supplies from a supply base a year away (which is why planets like Wayside V showed up, you would need closer depot worlds or things would get messy...)) then you hit your target, they aren't waiting for you due to the fact that you are attacking a non-border area. So the initial strikes succeed with overwhelming victories. however here and their you still get your nose bloodied by the smarter opponents. hopefully you just lost the machines, the warriors are much harder to replace (20 years to train a new one) even so for every unit you lose initially you will take out 5-6 enemy machines to potentially 10. this continues for several waves as redirecting the number of troops necessary to stop you takes time.

here is where my strategy varies from canon

instead of contesting the next wave i would seed my troops 2 waves ahead of the next assault. i would then have spec ops units form resistance cells on planets about to be occupied (not recruiting civilians til later, the units primary purpose is to force the invaders to sink resources into pacifying the population. i would have them set up large explosive devices into the primary spaceport, moment the dropships set down you light them off destroying the propulsion gear, which would take a while to rebuild, and if done right could also set off their hydrogen tanks tearing the whole ship asunder and killing everyone inside. however this plan leaves the warships, which is arguably the clans greatest asset, untouched. roughly 500 clan warships exist to comstars probably 20.(if done right you could probably kill 50 or so clan ships before those 20 went down) simplest way to stop them is a combination of diplomatic shuttles with nukes, tactical insertion ships with nukes, and dropships with nukes. pack 15-20 nukes into the missile tubes of a leopard, then claim to be a diplomat, get close, fire nukes. you may lose the dropship, but that warship is gone. do this simultaneously with hidden stealthships and other things (such as orbitting missiles (aka you have them in the jump point and you send a signal that lights off the drives), a group of meteors along the simplest path to the planet, and other methods, significant loss of warships and clan life can be done. 40-50 warships at least would be gone before the clans figure out what happened. at that point you just lay some dropships which are set up as the dropship version of lrm carriers and pack them with massive numbers of missile tubes (i would have these anyways, they can't hope to stop all the missiles, so it is actually a pretty effective tactic) and punch out a combination of nukes and normal missiles (obviously you can't have an ungodly large barrage of nukes as that would be bankrupting, so have a few dozen and have the rest be decoys, odds of the nuke getting hit are low, but possible, a direct hit probably wouldn't set it off as the it would disrupt the shaped charge (depends on the nuke type) used to start the reaction) which would wipe the warship off the map. before long, they will be unwilling to use warships as all (things are bloody expensive and a drain on manpower) depriving them of their greatest advantage.

will post more later, but basically with tactics, no amount of your beloved clan tech would save you. it all really comes down to how far the IS commander is willing to go to win.

this post is badass xD

[Splinters]

My personal belief on why clans are hated is that this more of a people problem than anything else. No one wants to be loser in any video game, so why not say your a clanner with higher beliefs, training, and skill? Those who claim to be clan here or other sites tend to RP their characters a little too seriously which I believe ticks off the non-Clanners.

Personally I liked the clan storyline and addition to the game, but I can see why many others hate the "would-be" clanners on this board and many others who make a big deal of their "superior genetic engineering" when technically all of us in the real world are "free-births" and not genetically filtered or trained in any way.

If there was a true clanner I would respect that person, but the hubris exhibited by most clanners (especially the proto-typical Crusaders) is what I believe where most BT/MW IS-supporters really dis-like.

-S

[Pariah Devalis]

Food for thought:

In regards to the 'lower castes,' if memory serves both Clan Ghost Bear and Nova Cat never had to deal with the Society (or, at least, not in any significant way) due to proactive inclusionary practices. The former due to their family based structure, the later because they were not idiots and realized the person who feeds the army is (almost) as important as the person who defends the farms. Then you have clans like Diamond Shark that are essentially militarized merchants anyways. The treatment of non-warrior castes is not so standard across the clans.

An example of the diversity of stance is, for example, how Clan Nova Cat essentially sacrificed an entire GALAXY of warriors to stall the other Clans' attacks on their planets, simply to buy enough time for the civilians to escape the planet. That is a huge chunk of the military tourman that was willing to die to protect their civilians. That, absolutely, should send a clear message about how a Clan military structure is supposed to work, and what it is supposed to represent.

What I am getting at is that people tend to broadly lump all the Clans together, but, just like the various factions of the Inner Sphere, there is a good deal of variability between the different Clans. To be fair, a lot of Clanners like to broadly clump all the Inner Sphere Houses together, as well, which is no less inaccurate. Unless one constructs an argument based firmly in the equally shared aspects of the societies in Battletech, and one that is not so variable in degree that it defies standardization, one really aught to take each Clan/House on a one on one basis of analysis.

Unfortunately, a great deal of the people who hate the Clans are rather poorly informed about them, besides a generalist, and hard to call accurate, glossing over that is thrown around willy nilly.

Edit:

That said, yes, in modern times a lot of what the Clans do, generally speaking, would be highly frowned upon. Some of them, such as eugenics, as a concept have bad connotations attached to them that are not entirely deserved on the basis of the benefits to a society they can theoretically provide. Others, like the aspects of fascism, are outright horrible in our world-view. However, given the setting (and the tilt of your moral compass) it can be somewhat excusable in some cases. I mean, for example, I have zero issue with Nova Cat, Ghost Bear, Diamond Shark, or Wolves in Exile. I absolutely detest everything about Clan Jade Falcon post-Martha Pryde, the Smoke Jaguars, and Vlad's Wolves.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 26 March 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

All factions in Battletech suck in some way- your choices are a military caste hierarchy, feudalism and theocracy. People who think the Successor States rule believe if they lived in a feudal system they would be one of the nobility and not the poor peasant working 16 hour days for a bowl of oatmeal or slice of moldy bread. The Clan civilians on average enjoy a better quality of life because they are over a century ahead technologically and the Clans in general avoid collateral in their wars. I am not sure what the situation is after the Reaving but it can't be that much worse then it is for Spheroids after the Jihad.

As for the leadership being more meritocratic, that is simply because they don't inherit positions as directly and are constantly tested, whereas in the Successor States you are born into nobility or royalty and probably die there unless your planet gets invaded or you are on the losing side of a civil war or turn traitor or the Blakists decide your family is a serious problem and get you, etc. Now does that mean the Clans have an egalitarian paradise or life is awesome in Clan society? Just ask the Dark Caste about that. Or Clan Wolverine, which actually tried to practice that "evil" known as "Democracy".

Any society is going to suck after centuries and centuries of warfare and militarization. Even the Steiners and Davions, are, at the end of the day militarized feudal states which do not have freedom of speech like we know it today and have huge wealth discrepancies and entire worlds destitute or on the verge of running out of water, food, people dying from being unable to afford space in the domes, etc.

The real reason a lot of people hate the Clans more then the Successor States is they don't like cloning and genetic engineering because it is "unnatural". Okay, you can think that way just fine, but one then has to wonder how "natural" the internet is or even electricity. You want it 100% natural, go live with the Amish and make sure you don't upset Merlin or he might have to do something for the good of the community.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 26 March 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Joanna Conners]

PaintedWolf, on 26 March 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

All factions in Battletech suck in some way- your choices are a military caste hierarchy, feudalism and theocracy. People who think the Successor States rule believe if they lived in a feudal system they would be one of the nobility and not the poor peasant working 16 hour days for a bowl of oatmeal or slice of moldy bread. The Clan civilians on average enjoy a better quality of life because they are over a century ahead technologically and the Clans in general avoid collateral in their wars. I am not sure what the situation is after the Reaving but it can't be that much worse then it is for Spheroids after the Jihad.

As for the leadership being more meritocratic, that is simply because they don't inherit positions as directly and are constantly tested, whereas in the Successor States you are born into nobility or royalty and probably die there unless your planet gets invaded or you are on the losing side of a civil war or turn traitor or the Blakists decide your family is a serious problem and get you, etc. Now does that mean the Clans have an egalitarian paradise or life is awesome in Clan society? Just ask the Dark Caste about that. Or Clan Wolverine, which actually tried to practice that "evil" known as "Democracy".

Any society is going to suck after centuries and centuries of warfare and militarization. Even the Steiners and Davions, are, at the end of the day militarized feudal states which do not have freedom of speech like we know it today and have huge wealth discrepancies and entire worlds destitute or on the verge of running out of water, food, people dying from being unable to afford space in the domes, etc.

The real reason a lot of people hate the Clans more then the Successor States is they don't like cloning and genetic engineering because it is "unnatural". Okay, you can think that way just fine, but one then has to wonder how "natural" the internet is or even electricity. You want it 100% natural, go live with the Amish and make sure you don't upset Merlin or he might have to do something for the good of the community.

Why shouldn't fans consider they'd be nobility or warrior caste? It's a fictional universe and you're putting yourself wherever you want. Of course you can idealize your position and circumstances. Why argue about where we'd be in real life or what we'd be stuck doing? What's the point of imagination and gaming if we limit ourselves to being nobodies?

It's just an argument that shouldn't be made. Both the IS states and the Clans have good and bad. Just like here on Earth in real life. Americans often think they live in the best country on Earth, and yet most people wouldn't actually want to trade their home to live in the States. Most people love their country, flaws and all, and wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

It's a game, let's idealize the world all we want and strap ourselves into walking death machines for our fictional causes.

Let's stop arguing about this and start arguing why our faction is going to kick much posterior in CW.

[Wildstreak]

Because the Clans were the second biggest mistake in BattleTech dumping in a whole bunch of superior technology too much, too fast. I prefer gradual tech advancements.

Also it is representative of a problem with several games when it was done, that problem being that some game companies felt they had to have big world/universe shaking events to generate interest in the game. This led to players trying to keep up and if you preferred a different time period you were left in the cold with hardly anyone to play because of the belief you MUST play in the 'current' time.

The first big mistake was the 20 year jump from the 4th Succession War to just before the Clans arrived. Would have loved to play through the tech upgrades and events like the 3039 War but no, they just made it a footnote.