149 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

Raidyr, on 03 February 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

About halfway through. They have also mentioned it in several previews of the game. Light mechs are supposed to go toe to toe with heavier mechs by trading armor for speed. The problem is that right now, speed is far too powerful a defensive boost because when you are going fast the server literally makes you invincible.

Made you invincible. Made. I'm a euro player and I'm consistently able to make hits on light with direct fire weapons in both lights and assaults (currently don't pilot anything else so no data). There may be a degree of observer bias, but I'm pretty damn sure that 98% of the times that I miss it's because I miss.

The problem has never been that lights are useful in combat with larger foes, if they weren't they'd be utterly redundant since scouting is barely a thing in MWO due to map sizes and terrain design. The problem was when you could 'tank' any larger mech in a light simply by running around it in circles at max throttle. That no longer works. I can put a fair amount of damage on targets in my 3L since the netcode fix, but I do it by engaging in hit-and-run attacks against anything larger than another light or certain chassies (a de-armed Dragon I will stick about to put down, for example). Generally this tactic works best when I move in once the brawl has closed, and I'll be running my ECM in 'counter' unless there's a lot of hostile streaks.

[Grendel Toot]

Only just found this post, agree with the OP.

I also advocate a tonnage and ECM limit in 8 mans (our merc corp runs with 500t and 3 ECM), it opens up more builds as being viable.

I'm not sure how hard PGI think about the chassis they offer and the meta game. Still, early days and all that

[Wispsy]

Writhen, on 03 February 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

What? Can't handle the truth? Many of the people here I know because I play against often, Antares Scorpions, Wolf Spiders, Black Wolves, ELP, you are just some random. MW4 was a completely different playstyle than this. MWO =/= MW4.

The 6 medium Jenner runs too hot to be viable against the Raven. Heat gained vs damage done, the raven will always outdo in a team environment. The only team ever to field it against us in a match was Snow Raven, and that was once in which they used it to prime down our heavier mechs.

Anyone can be a pug star in a Commando and in a Jenner, field those mechs against groups like Snow Raven, Kaos Legion, Grey Fox, Paragon, ELP and WIN, I'd be impressed.

I would take my Jenner against them any time and expect to win! I much prefer 6medpulse to 6medlas though, for reasons that become apparent once you are familiar with optimal use of light mechs.

[JadePanther]

The ravens are the real problem. with the 2D following in the dust somewhere... As it is now 3L >> 2D any day of the week.. and heck spiders arent even a thought...

The ravens are the heavywieghts of the light class and there just isnt comparison really... Sure the 2D can be worrysome but it' cant compete with the 3L's

Its hard not to see why.. the raven wieghs in 10 tons heavier.. What does this mean.. more weapons more ammo more armor bigger engines.

Heavier means more armor. and wight savings from FF and ES is biggger on the raven..

Bigger engines-- this is the real winner... the raven can load up to a 295.. 2D's only up to 210.. this means that the 2D needs to equip 2 sinks jsut to run, where the raven ggets all 10 plus room for one in the engine.. And if ur running double HS which is pretty much nessicary thos 2 sinks in the body of a 2D means 6 lost slots. and the raven gives up none.. thus the raven has an easier time with room for FF and ES ammo etc...

more armor.. the raven has 60 points or almost a full 2 tons more armor.. seeing as a 2D can mount 5.5 tons of armor 2 tons is a signifigant advantage...

more weps... yep the raven can field 3 ML's 2 ssrm's ECM and ams and not give up much of anything to speed.. The 2D gets a ML 3 ssrms and ecm

more ammo-- the 3L has more weight and crit room for ammo plain fact. having DHS all in the engine makes them smile. they can carry more ammo cause it's easier to run ES and FF saving the 3L alot more tonnage than the 2D would get.


Now throw in the fact that the ravens hitbox is all still good and wonky while the commando's lost alot of lag shield. It's even more armor for the raven...


Ravens are just way more powerful than 2D's.. not to say the 2D isnt a mean lil beastie.. but 2D vs 3L means winner for the raven most times than not...

jenner F's and a cicada 2A would have to be the best fast mover to counter a raven.. Or maybe just run a 3M with large lasers and try to stay at standoff range, this might have promise as the 3M can stay at range with ecm and bigger guns.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

Wispsy, on 18 February 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

I would take my Jenner against them any time and expect to win! I much prefer 6medpulse to 6medlas though, for reasons that become apparent once you are familiar with optimal use of light mechs.

OH HAI WISPSY!

100% with MPL's over girly ML's on lights.

[DrxAbstract]

JadePanther, on 18 February 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

jenner F's and a cicada 2A would have to be the best fast mover to counter a raven.. Or maybe just run a 3M with large lasers and try to stay at standoff range, this might have promise as the 3M can stay at range with ecm and bigger guns.

I'd have to disagree with the Jenner-F being a better counter to the 3L than a Jenner-D, or as an all-purpose mech, due to the D having two Missile hardpoints.

Not to use SSRMs, though, but SRMs. The way maps are designed, terrain and buildings provide many opportunities for the Jenner to avoid LOS long enough to either break the Raven's lock, or position itself to deliver an instant, point-blank salvo of dual SRM4s (And potentially some laser fire) in such a manner that is difficult to evade or miss while receiving glancing laser rakes and typically not providing enough time for the Raven to lock-on+fire their SSRMs... Giving the Jenner the upper hand in close-quarters fights since their SRMs hit twice as hard while minimizing the Jenner's exposure to the Raven and their SSRMs. I've lost count of how many 3Ls i've downed, as well as other Lights, by using the SRM barrage n book method. The Jenner-F requires exposing yourself for longer periods of time, maintaining a consistent aim and produces more heat per shot to be effective...

At range, the JR7-F might be viable, but in point-blank scenarios, which i often find myself in with 3Ls and other Lights in general, the JR7-D is the superior choice... Not to mention convergence issues with both sets of lasers on the arms all hitting (Alternating left and right arm shots with adjustments to aiming helps), but that's just been my experience so far.

[Corbon Zackery]

Wow good preach.

However your thinking is a bit flawed.

I myself have 3 Jenners they all work fine in every match.

4 small pulse 2 streak missle
6 small lasers with 5 jumpjets
4 m lasers and streak SRM 6

Before ECM the 4 small pulse 2 streak jenner was the king commandos were like popcorn waiting to be popped Ravens were sqaushed like a bug its still a great light mech killer.

6 small laser Jenner it does 18 points per hit never overheats and can lay out more fire heatwise than any light mech

4 m laser and SRM 6 Jenner lays out a impressive 35 points of dmg per shot if your shooting at a light thats crippling but for the most part you want to use this build to sofen up 50 to 100 ton mechs using single shot runs never fire unless your heats below 50%

The Commando 1A is still the best Commando 1 large laser and 2 m lasers great for soften up bigboys

See you just dont understand a light pilot why would I worry about the little fish in the pond I have more important things to do.

The Ravens glory day is a fluck due to a overpowered peice of equipment that has no real counter other than a light blub that blinks or a smart ECM player who knows to press the J key to jam a ECM.



You dont need ECM to win a light mech battle I can use my politing skills to do that suck you into a group of my mech and let them have field day or simply make sure I not near your ECM light.

ECM is nothing more than a rookie childs playtoy.

[BigJim]

Corbon Zackery, on 18 February 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

See you just dont understand a light pilot why would I worry about the little fish in the pond I have more important things to do.

In anything other than a puggie handbag fight your Lights (and I'm counting Cicadas here too) need to make the enemy Lights their #1 target - doing anything else means you're trying to do someone else's job (worse than they could do it) while neglecting your own.

In a team vs team situation, you also need to be scouting, and the balancing-act between these two tasks is what marks a good scout team (emphasis - Team of scouts) from a poor or average one.

If you don't control the enemy Lights, they'll control your team, and the enemy will control the map.

Quote

You dont need ECM to win a light mech battle I can use my politing skills to do that suck you into a group of my mech and let them have field day or simply make sure I not near your ECM light.

Uber-leet piloting skills are nice, but there's always a better pilot out there, and when that better pilot has better weapons, then this kind of complacency will lose your team the scrim and feed the enemy scouts some nice juicy kills.
No move you make can outrun or outmanoeuvre Streaks (in their current iteration), so vs an equally skilled and experienced Light, you will lose.

Do you honestly think the enemy Light pilots will be so dense as to be kited into your main force? Damn..

This post isn't a rant, or nastiness, just a reaction to the wrongness in your post.
Being a scout pilot is one of the most fun roles in the game, but it also comes with responsibility outside of puggie matches.
If you only pug, then feel free to do whatever you feel like bud, scouting is essentially useless in that gametype so I wouldn't dream of telling you how to have fun, but in a real match, then the attitude displayed in your post won't help your guys out at all.

Edited by BigJim, 18 February 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[Protection]

My biggest point in this whole thread is this:

Jenners were a whole lot more fun than Ravens, and required more aim, better piloting, and more skill in general. And they were more fun to fight against, even, as frustrating as they could be at times.

I'd rather have Jenners back dominating lights than Raven 3Ls. It'd be great if we could balance it to have a whole plethora of interesting light options, but Ravens are tedious, Jenners were more fun.

[MustrumRidcully]

Unfortunately the only reasonably and quick way I can think of for re balancing Streaks would be to lower their rate of fire.

A more complicated way might be changing how targeting locks work, making those more difficult with the target's speed in some manner, and requiring a re-lock after every shot. This doesn't work at all with how guided missiles work right now, because they require to maintain the lock. But a fire-and-forget approach with increased locking times would allow more possibilities to make speed relevant. And it imght also make it easier to change how ECM works - instead of providing a blanket homing immunity, it could be changed to cause missiles to veer off during flight if they get jammed.