46 replies to this topic

[Bloody Moon]

Lately i've started playing with my Centurions again (especially with my old favourite the CN9-AL) and it seemed like the "slow" mediums ie the CN9-A, CN9-AL and the Hunchback variants are far less rewarding than other mechs. While they can perform well in the right hands and in certain situations, it felt like the only way they can do that if their pilot is much better than the opponents.

About the common roles in MWO:

If a team (or a player) wants a scout or harasser:
Lights or fast mediums are much better choices, they are smaller, faster, have almost the same armor, weaponry and often carry ECM. In case a team already has enough ECM then the CN9-D comes into mind as it offers more armor and weaponry than the lights or the Cicada while it's speed is almost the same as theirs.

Brawlers or long range support then?
The answer is clearly no. While they can function as either of those roles, heavies or assaults can perform them with much better efficiency and if speed is also a requirement then Catapults and Cataphracts can run at almost the same speed (only 6KM/H difference) while having much more punch and more armor while the Dragons run even faster.

This leaves the slow medium mechs in an awkward position as they have to compete with mechs that either have roughly the same speed with much better armor and firepower or with mechs that usually have much better speed and slightly less firepower and armor. So either they risk getting one-shotted or they will get outmaneuvered.

Why do i bring this up now?
These medium mechs have been facing this problem ever since their speed got nerfed in the Closed Beta (partly due to the former lagshield and imbalances in weaponry), but their hardpoints kept them somewhat viable. However now with the mechs that has been released after their nerf they get outclassed in every way and soon the Trebuchet will arrive with much better speed and with great hardpoints according to Sarna so even this tiny advantage in the medium class will cease to exist.

This is why in my opinion it is time to reverse that old nerf and give them back the ability to run slightly above 100KM/H with speed boost (ie mount an engine with 300 rating), this would keep them somewhat more viable.

[BaronofBeanDip]

Hunchbacks are more of a support mech for tagging along with someone else. When I'm in my 4H, I always tag along with an assault, and try to disable weapons on whatever he's fighting.

[Bloody Moon]

BaronofBeanDip, on 03 February 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Hunchbacks are more of a support mech for tagging along with someone else. When I'm in my 4H, I always tag along with an assault, and try to disable weapons on whatever he's fighting.

Sure, let's take the HBK-4H as an example, whatever you can do in the 4H as a "support" brawler mech you can do much more efficiently with the CTF-1X, just try it. Same hardpoints, roughly the same speed, much more armor, +20 tonnage for weapons and heatsinks AND while the CTF has a slightly larger frame it's lack of overly large hunch more than makes up for it.

Now we could say that against a Hunchback there will be another medium on the enemy side aswell while the CTF gets a heavy opponent, however that only works if you play pub games, so your Hunchback will have a serious disadvantage in the 8v8 queue.

BUT wait there is more, your mech's weight class only affects the weight class of ONE mech on the enemy side so while it would seem you'll face a fair fight in the public queue with your Hunchback you really won't, well at least not ALWAYS.

In case the rest of your team is filled with heavies and assaults (mind you that is quite common in pub games) then you only face the lonely medium in the enemy team on equal footing against everyone else you have a disadvantage. If you'd have taken the CTF-1X then you'd have better chance against the rest of the enemy team.

[FrozenAnt]

I love Centurions, I've got all 4 with 1 pt in Masters and +Mexp in all. And I completely agree with you.

I find it funny that everyone says "Well they are support mechs they arn't ment to be brawlers, LRM Boats, etc etc..." The funny thing is when both teams encounter each other what happens.... A brawl breaks out... So even if I hug an Atlas, at some point he is going to get into a brawl. Then what do I do? Well I am supporting him so I BRAWL.

Logic chain(s)
Support Assualts---> Assualt gets into Brawl---> I support Assualts---> I brawl with them--->I am not a brawler

Support LRM boats--> Stand back watching for lights----> doing no damage UNLESS I have LRMs--> I am not an LRM boat---> No light comes---> I do no damage

I am a light hunter---> I protect my team from lights---> Light engages----> I engage lights---> (Exception Cent-9D) GOOD light bugs out--> I hunt for lights---> Brawl breaks out--> I hunt for lights, I am not a brawler---> team dies, O snap...

I realize this is a simplistic way to think of it as there are many other situations, that can happen. Flanking, Capping, etc, but I do feel that these scenaries are a good approximation to the scheme of things. Notice " I FEEL" I am open to conversation that will change my mind.

Now there are some things I feel can be changed to balance medium mechs
-Smaller hitboxes (ESP Cents, I mean come on now...)
-More speed via upping engine gains. I know a stock cent has 64.8 W STD 200, fine, keep it that way but my STD 260 needs to have a max speed with speed tweak of ~100 or 110
and just a tad faster Torso Twist.

I really think this is all that's needed to balance them in general.

However... The other problems come from the state of the game. Since the maps are small, and there are not many objectives it does not get to the Medium's strong point.

Putting good firepower, with good armor, and defending/Assaulting a spot.

To show I put forth this scenario
Avg speeds (After speed fix) ------------------------Convert to KPM (Kilometers per Minute)
Assault-50KPH----------------------------------------------.8
Heavy-65KPH ------------------------------------------------1.1
Medium-90KPH ---------------------------------------------- 1.5
Light-120 KPH--------------------------------------------------2

Distance To objective= 6Km, (6000meters)
Time to objective------------LRM ready position, (1000m)-----Time for medium to fight lights

Before First LRM volley arrives

Assault- 7.5 Minutes -------- 6 minutes 15 seconds--------------2 Min 20 seconds
Heavy- 5.4 Minutes -----------4 minutes 34 seconds--------------- 40 Seconds
Medium 4 minutes------------- 3 minutes and 10 seconds ----------- N/A
Light 3 Minutes------------------Who puts LRMs on a light?-------------- N/A

What does all this mean? The more space and less brawling we have on maps the more time mediums will have to put their firepower and armor in a spot in a timely manner, thus fullfilling the job they where meant to do.

Edited by FrozenAnt, 03 February 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[Bloody Moon]

FrozenAnt, on 03 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

However... The other problems come from the state of the game. Since the maps are small, and there are not many objectives it does not get to the Medium's strong point.

Sadly there is no relation between the "slow" mediums state and the map size. Most heavies can run at 86.6 or more with speed tweak and the maximum speed Hunchies and Cents (aside from the D model) can reach is 92.7, no matter how large the maps will be that 6 KPH won't ever worth the tradeoff in weapons and armor.

[Willie Sauerland]

The problem isn't with the roles or the abilities of the pilots. It also isn't the problem with PGIGP's implementation of those mechs. What is missing is the economy. An assault is supposed to be near impossible to obtain (there just aren't that many of them and supposedly only the best of the best will have them) and maintaining them is even more expensive. However, with the current system, they are easily obtained and almost everybody has one or three. Maintenance used to be expensive, but now with the lack of repair and rearm, there is no reason not to run your Atlas into the pack and die a "hero's" death.

If the economics were truly implemented correctly, the hunchback and slower mediums would have a more fitting role within this game as they would make up the bulk of the strike force which is exactly what they are supposed to do. The high-tech (think ECM, Artemis, Double Heatsinks, etc) would be rare and the Atlas rarer still.

I,for one, hope they fix a lot of this for community warfare as the way it is now will be horribly untrue to cannon. In this sense, I think this is more a question of the CW roadmap and implementation plan in the sense of transitioning from this current gaming system into the "real world of MechWarrior"...

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 03 February 2013 - 03:26 PM.

[Bloody Moon]

Willie, you are a founder, you were here when we had repair and rearm close to the canon (yes the first implementation when we won and lost millions each game). Good players managed to gather large sums of C-Bills with mechbays full of the shiniest imaginable mechs while bad players were struggling to keep one of their mechs running.

It was good in terms of staying true to the canon mindset, but do you also remember the massive whine that ensued? That is why we ended up here.

Since no mechs or C-Bills will be taken away, this issue needs to be solved with other tools or most Centurions and all of the Hunchbacks will fade away from the battles as no one will use them when they realize they have better options.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 03 February 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

I submit for consideration that no matter what is done, there will be not enough cheese to go with the whine. I remember much of the crying - LRMs are OP, Gauss is OP, Chassis X is OP, etc.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind R&R being reinstated just like I can't wait for knock downs to come back into the system. If that means there is more crying and people quit because of it, I can't help but think this community would be better off for it. This game should not be like the other FPS out there where everything is easily accessible without the grind. This game should be "truer" to its cannon since that is what will keep the paying die-hards here. Of course there will need to be adjustments and I fully support this, but the idea that a particular mech class is neutralized because everything is so affordable (I know - people complain about having to grind 70+ matches to buy a mech which is hilarious since they are forgetting all about the experience they are gaining in the process) is flat out wrong. PGIGP are working so hard to ensure everything is balanced (which it shouldn't be) and seem to be screwing the pooch with the whole metagame and CW as everything should be different in that environment (and also not balanced/fair).

I maintain that if an Atlas is extremely difficult to come by, you will see plenty of the "cheaper" classes on the field. In BattleTech and MechWarrior, an Atlas is feared. In MW:O, an Atlas is laughed at by the light behind it firing its SSRMs/SRM/ML without any fear of overheating.

In this sense, the mechanic is just wrong and I hope it is fixed before CW starts.

[Stringburka]

The thing is, an endless grind to obtain the expensive 'mechs is from what I know not part of the canon either (granted, my knowledge of canon is limited). From what I've understood, that might be true for mercenaries, but those bound to "states" would have the economic support of, well, an actual economy.

That can be hard to implement in the game.

It's not that I'm against R&R (I'm not) but balancing 'mechs by causing an endless grind to get dominating power is kind of a bad system. It further splits the power curve between good players and bad players, because not only will pilot skills differ, good players will have far more awesome 'mechs too. It may be logical, but it's not good for creating a game that is enjoyable for the masses.

In that case, I think it's far better for community warfare to be solved through premade teams on a collective limited tonnage budget (like, an 8-pilot team might have 600 tons of 'mechs or similar).

But regardless, a matching system based on tonnage rather than classification would be great.

[Willie Sauerland]

Stringburka, on 03 February 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

The thing is, an endless grind to obtain the expensive 'mechs is from what I know not part of the canon either (granted, my knowledge of canon is limited). From what I've understood, that might be true for mercenaries, but those bound to "states" would have the economic support of, well, an actual economy.

That can be hard to implement in the game.

It's not that I'm against R&R (I'm not) but balancing 'mechs by causing an endless grind to get dominating power is kind of a bad system. It further splits the power curve between good players and bad players, because not only will pilot skills differ, good players will have far more awesome 'mechs too. It may be logical, but it's not good for creating a game that is enjoyable for the masses.

In that case, I think it's far better for community warfare to be solved through premade teams on a collective limited tonnage budget (like, an 8-pilot team might have 600 tons of 'mechs or similar).

But regardless, a matching system based on tonnage rather than classification would be great.

No, warriors were able to get mechs from their House, shall we say loosely based on a hierarchy (varies from House to House, but this is a generalized idea). So, this means MW:O would need a ranking system (already in the works) and an idea of how rare something is (haven't heard anything on this one). So, then the highest ranked players would have access to the rarer pieces of equipment while the lower ranked would have to earn the next higher ranking - meaning the high ranking cannot be caught sleeping either. Like I said, all the houses had various ways of dealing with this (whether it be challenges, a straight-up ranking system, etc) and should be a consideration of joining a particular faction. It would be awesome if politics could play a part as well to recreate the immersion and "feel" of being in the Inner Sphere within this time period as well as providing another method for obtaining "higher-class" mechs, however, I may be just dreaming for too much...

Bad players can become better players if they do not take the "this is too hard - I want an easy button" mentality. Personally, I think PGIGP has listened to the minority who screams the loudest but I understand what you are saying about the mass marketability of this game. Perhaps my suggestions would be steps in the wrong direction. In this sense, I don't mind adapting to whatever is thrown at me.

As for the matchmaker, I'm all for including BV into the metrics used in the ELO matchmaking system. Some people are omni-pilots and could pilot a brick really well while others are specialists with a particular chassis or two. The ELO system should take this into account as well.

[FrozenAnt]

Bloody Moon, on 03 February 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Sadly there is no relation between the "slow" mediums state and the map size. Most heavies can run at 86.6 or more with speed tweak and the maximum speed Hunchies and Cents (aside from the D model) can reach is 92.7, no matter how large the maps will be that 6 KPH won't ever worth the tradeoff in weapons and armor.

That is why Meduim's need a maxium speed buff. If you notice I asked that their "Nominal" "Average" speed be boosted to ~90, with max being ~100, ~110. I know this isn't Canon, TT, but this game is not TT. So at their current speeds, of up to 92.7 Yes, they don't even come close to heavies which can sport more armor and weapons. That's why we need to give mediums an advantage again

[Gaan Cathal]

Or you could slow down heavies.

Frankly the entire game needs contracted brackets on engine/armour refitting. That would firstly increase differentiation within weight classes - for instance the speed/toughness ratios in the light class would actually be there, and the Dragon would be considerably better looked upon if Catapults weren't nearly keeping pace with it - secondly it would solve a large part of the main issue with mediums in relation to heavies, being able to maintain their speed/manouverability advantage more easily.

[Bloody Moon]

Slowing down the heavies could work aswell to some degree, but it also has the risk of turning MWO even more of an assault spam than it is now.

Then again it wouldn't hurt much if the Catapults, Phracts and maybe even the Dragon would get their speed nerfed by 5-10KPH along with the same speed boost for the "slow" mediums to keep them somewhat in line with the Trebuchet that will arrive in 2 weeks.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 03 February 2013 - 08:59 PM.

[Stringburka]

Willie Sauerland, on 03 February 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

No, warriors were able to get mechs from their House, shall we say loosely based on a hierarchy (varies from House to House, but this is a generalized idea).

Yeah, I guessed that much.

Quote

Bad players can become better players if they do not take the "this is too hard - I want an easy button" mentality.

The thing is, if getting good stats relies on skill+mech and good stats give you a good mech, those with bad mechs need to have far better skill than those with good mechs to keep up. If a cataphract requires high skill to get, and is outright much better than a hunchback, then the player who has a hunchback can't get a cataphract by being as skilled as the one with the cata - it needs to outperform in skill by a larger margin than the cata outperforms the hunchie in power.

I think this can be done though, if the rating in question isn't relying on the ratings of others - that is, rather than "the best 50 performers of Rasalhague get to pilot a free atlas" it could be "those performers with over X experience points total get to pilot a free atlas".
Basically, it gets down to the "equipment per level" we see so often in RPGs. That has both benefits and drawbacks, but I'm unsure if it would fit for a game like this.

I think taking BV/weight into consideration would solve most of these issues, especially if it becomes more floating - an awesome and a jenner wouldn't have to be opposed by an assault and a light, they could be opposed by something like a cataphract and a centurion, for example.

[The Basilisk]

Medium mechs are the grunts of MWO.
They are literaly the crowd.
And thats also how they should behave.
NEVER do ANYTHING allone.
Mediums are per definition not outstanding in any way. Their respective chassis may offer certain advantages or disadvantages but neither can a laser Hunch be compared with an 3F laser Stalker nor can a Centurion do what Cataphract can do.
Their strength is their flexibility. Slow meds are as fast as fast heavys (should be at least )
better armored as anny light and able to pose a serious thread for any oponent when used in even smal groups.

[MustrumRidcully]

Willie Sauerland, on 03 February 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

The problem isn't with the roles or the abilities of the pilots. It also isn't the problem with PGIGP's implementation of those mechs. What is missing is the economy. An assault is supposed to be near impossible to obtain (there just aren't that many of them and supposedly only the best of the best will have them) and maintaining them is even more expensive. However, with the current system, they are easily obtained and almost everybody has one or three. Maintenance used to be expensive, but now with the lack of repair and rearm, there is no reason not to run your Atlas into the pack and die a "hero's" death.

If the economics were truly implemented correctly, the hunchback and slower mediums would have a more fitting role within this game as they would make up the bulk of the strike force which is exactly what they are supposed to do. The high-tech (think ECM, Artemis, Double Heatsinks, etc) would be rare and the Atlas rarer still.

I,for one, hope they fix a lot of this for community warfare as the way it is now will be horribly untrue to cannon. In this sense, I think this is more a question of the CW roadmap and implementation plan in the sense of transitioning from this current gaming system into the "real world of MechWarrior"...

But who wants to play Battletech: The Economy of War?

I think most people want to play their favorite mechs, and if they can't, the game is not for them.
I mean, by the same logic that an Atlas is expensive -a 50 ton Hunchback is also expensive. Some of us should instead fight as Infantry, or aboard a armored vehicle, anything else is "unrealistic".

The way I see it - yes, an Atlas is difficult and expensive ot maintain. But it's also extremely powerful, so an Atlas, wherever he is used, will get paid appopriately. So maybe I have to wait to get the right contract that requires an Atlas, but I sure as hell will get paid something that's worth the risk and the maintainance cost of my Atlas. If it isn't, the entire economy behind mechs fails - if there is never a job that is worth using an Atlas for, no one will have an Atlas.

You can now try to restrict Atlas-fans in some way by saying "no more than 4 Atlas-containing matches at the same time on the server", but that will not really increase the fun for the Atlas-fan. You're just annoying a customer with needless restrictions.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 February 2013 - 04:12 AM.

[Zyllos]

I think these types of mechs will come into their own if they had some type of limiting factor on BV or tonnage.

The same goes for the Awesome, it is completely out classed with other Assaults (unless your in the unique location where the Awesome can out shine the other Assaults) but it being 80t and lower BV, it might end up being worth it if you are only allowed to allocate so many resources to use it.

[Antarius]

... cant agree, have a cent, it working quite fine (somepart to the extreme strong srm), but it does it job, running faster as an heavy, except dragon (but if he is faster, i should have more firepower, because his reactor costs more ton for the same speed). Have a Hunchi too, its works great too, you have only to use it like a Medium, not as an Heavy or Assault brawler, use your speed. Hit and run-tactics out of cover works perfect, nothing better as giving AC20-rounds out without backfire, because you are long gone before the Assault even get where it come from.

Heavy Mechs are easier to play, thats true, but this is how it works.

easiest: Assault -> Heavy -> Medium -> Light :hardest

lights are easier atm because of the lagshield and the missing colision (will come back).

Mediums are hybrids, like Heavys. You dont cry about Heavys are worse than Assault, because they get more firepower and mostly more armor... if you go from one class to the next you allways trade one thing for an other(lights to medium, bit slower but a bit more armor and firepower, usually some variants may differ)

Zyllos, on 04 February 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

I think these types of mechs will come into their own if they had some type of limiting factor on BV or tonnage.

The same goes for the Awesome, it is completely out classed with other Assaults (unless your in the unique location where the Awesome can out shine the other Assaults) but it being 80t and lower BV, it might end up being worth it if you are only allowed to allocate so many resources to use it.

...bull... have two awesomes, have no problems with them, tried them in various fittings and never felt "outranked" by an atlas or stalker. If you only run into melee stand there and fire at each other until one dies, you prossibly die first, but you shouldnt, you are (if you compare standart builds) usually faster, and have to use this to your advantage, if you cant, play an atlas or learn it. (never forget, you have a faster torso twist with an awesome, that helps a lot to spread damage over the hole torso and gives you an advantage if you pass each other)

[TheForce]

Bloody Moon, on 03 February 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

This is why in my opinion it is time to reverse that old nerf and give them back the ability to run slightly above 100KM/H with speed boost (ie mount an engine with 300 rating), this would keep them somewhat more viable.

IMHO this will just make lights useless.

I say do the opposite - make it so you can't change the engine speed of any variant.

[Gaan Cathal]

TheForce, on 04 February 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

I say do the opposite - make it so you can't change the engine speed of any variant.

I don't think a small amount of adjustment is a problem, but the available degree of rating change atm is out of whack. The problem with reducing it is that you also need to reduce the amount of change-from-stock you permit in terms of armour, or faster mechs gain an advantage in armour they shouldn't have over their slower, more stock armoured, weight-class mates. E.g. the stock Raven is slow and armoured compared with the Jenner. Currently both can max at the same armour and (almost) the same speed. If the Raven gets even more reduced speed compared with the Jenner (fine by me) you also need to remove the ability for the Jenner to match the Raven's armour. Ergo if you want a hyper-fast, low armour 35-tonner, you go Jenner. If you want the armour more than the speed you go Raven. (Also ECM vs Firepower, but that only applies to one varient.)