225 replies to this topic

[Orzorn]

Ashnod, on 04 February 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Beagle on the other hand would be able to detect every mech within like... 1000+ meters on the map regardless of hills, caves, line of sight, magnetic issues, heavy metal deposits, massive city building's if there shut down etc.. and would let you know if your being jammed / unable to detect in an area due to interference from ECM, as well as decreasing lock on times and mech information like it does currently.

120 meters. That is bap's bubble.

[Ashnod]

Orzorn, on 04 February 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

120 meters. That is bap's bubble.

Seems to be a lot further on megamek :/ 27-40 hex's at least, which each hex representing 30 meters, I believe it might be added on to the original mech's max radar range or something?

Edited by Ashnod, 04 February 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[Orzorn]

Ashnod, on 04 February 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Seems to be a lot further on megamek :/ 27-40 hex's at least, which each hex representing 30 meters, I believe it might be added on to the original mech's max radar range or something?

Megamek uses double blind rules, if I recall, which has BAP with a giant range. I'm not sure how the 4 hex range comes into play there, however. Perhaps it is as you said, and they take your standard sensors and then put the 4 hex range on top of that?

Either way, I think a 120 meter bubble where BAP can detect through terrain would be a good addition, along with 360 degree targeting (not just retention like the module) would be good as well. NARC should broadcast the target's location no matter what, even if no spotter is there.

If ECM is going to stay this powerful, might as well make the things it counters worth countering.

[MischiefSC]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

MWO doesn't need to be designed as an "Elite only" game for its balance to be heavily influenced by the competitive sector.

Most games are balanced at the tournament level, not at the Bronze League level.

This strawman about throwing newbie sheep to the proverbial experienced wolves is getting out of hand. ELO should, if working correctly, prevent new players from running into these competitive players until they're good enough to handle them.

ECM makes the game more interesting for experienced players fighting other experienced players.

ECM probably won't even show up in brand new player matches because Stock and Trial variants don't come with it (bar the otherwise-awful stock RVN-3L), and even in the cases that it does the players involved won't have the experience necessary to use ECM effectively anyways.

You seem to be forgetting that any casual player, post-ELO, is just going to be facing another casual player who is just as likely to give 0 craps about mounting ECM on their own Mechs. Casual players are the most likely to avoid using whatever they consider "Cheese", leaving their whole "Rating Tier" relatively tame.

I'm aware of the Elo changes which brings up another concern - without the school of hard knocks how are those new players going to pick these tricks, techniques and move up? I am concerned that it will effectively segregate players by skill level and effectively widen the gap between the talent haves and have-nots, so to speak.

If new players by the way are not going to run into advanced players and ECMs, won't that completely destroy the proposed use of ECM to balance the issues with missiles? Isn't the imbalance created in making missiles a 'good enough to use on its own as a weapon type' sort of weapon the reason the clowntastic ECM setup was introduced?

I thought you said that ECM doesn't make a big difference for experienced players though - that once you get used to it and you've got an experienced team its impact is relatively minor.

Why not have ECM be more expensive than it is and have most of its effects be a byproduct of unlocked modules? Wouldn't that make it a 'elite players vs elite players' tool that isn't going to show up for newer players or people looking for a more casual experience?

Look, Vlad I respect your opinions and the experience in the game you've got that drives them. However it really feels like you're trying to justify something for the sake of justifying it. Is your position one that ECM is working great, maybe a few minor tweaks and there isn't a better way to do it or accomplish it? Are you saying that tabletop Battletech just isn't challenging or tactical for experienced players? Because there are some hardcore wargame geeks who have played BT league play since the first box set who would disagree with you. I used to play with a group that gathered at a friends house - he had a 400sqft expansion on his house with several tables and dioramas set up, literally hundreds (maybe a thousand?) figures and two copies of every single book so that both sides would always have their own copy.

He won the 'hardcore' award, that's for sure.

As I said originally. It's not that you can't learn to 'work around' ECM as it is now. That doesn't mean it's not clown shoes wearing imbalanced compared to all other equipment. Also that the design is based to expand the advantage of more competitive team players over everyone else.

It's an imbalanced solution to imbalanced missiles and creates more issues than just imbalanced missiles do.

Conversely however I realize that MWO is being made by an indie studio of gamers. It's tough to motivate people to make a game in that environment to make something other than the game they want to play themselves. You're going to prioritize things around what you want and enjoy.

That doesn't make ECM any less imbalanced though.

[Coralld]

@ Ashnod
I fail to see where you are trying to prove me wrong. I understand you bolden the parts that I am gussing proves your point, but I don't quite see where I am wrong.

"Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles."

This I guess is kinda confusing sense Streaks don't fire unless they get the go-ahead from its targeting systems, and sense ECM counters the targeting system, one would say then Streaks don't fire, but it says they do, they just fire like ordinary SRMs, which I am fine with and even mention in another of my posts that they should.

"Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming."

Notice how it reads that after it rattles off the five different spectrums bands it then says "AFFECTED SYSTEMS INCLUDE..." Which tells me that these are the systems that use said spectrum bands. Which every one agrees that's what ECM counters.

"An Electronic Countermeasure (or ECM) Suite covers the area around the unit on which it is employed, disrupting sensors and communications."

This doesn't mean it makes the ECM mech and those with in the sphere invisable to radar, not at a distance any way. if it makes it so that the ECM mech doesn't show up on your radar and you two are fighting in the 180m sphere then that's fine, I have no problem with that. But the problem is at the distance over 180m, which it doesn't do, as I said, that's what Stealth Armor is for.
As for blocking communication, I agree that it does this, the problem is that its hard to put in a game where people use third party communication software.

DocBach, on 04 February 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

On quoting Sarna.net - it's a great source for a good outline of a system, but it doesn't contain the word for word descriptions from the rule books or tech manuals to avoid copyright violations. The description from Sarna is a shortened version of the description from Technical Readout 3050, but it lacks a very, very important line:

"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

With that line, someone could interpret how ECM should function quite differently if they just read the Sarna entry.

This is what we need. As I have been saying before, at a distance ECM doesn't hide you from radar, you can still pick them up, assuming you have LOS of course. But you couldn't tell what they are packing and such.

Edited by Coralld, 04 February 2013 - 04:00 PM.

[Orzorn]

MischiefSC, on 04 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I'm aware of the Elo changes which brings up another concern - without the school of hard knocks how are those new players going to pick these tricks, techniques and move up? I am concerned that it will effectively segregate players by skill level and effectively widen the gap between the talent haves and have-nots, so to speak.

It isn't a black and while case of those strategies not appearing or appearing. It would be a spectrum. It was the same was in League of Legends. You'd start to see it appear more and more the higher you rose in ELO. It doesn't just show up one day and then be in every game after that.

[Cache]

No vote for me because it's not making my game (or game experience) worse.

That being said, I think the most difficult effect for me to adjust to is the loss of the mini map when under enemy ECM. It becomes easier to get strung out and separated from the group, and that's trouble. The counter, of course, is more situational awareness and less tunnel vision. It's not perfect but it gets the job done. This is not nearly as disorienting as the no-mini-map bug that I get hit with now and again. At least with ECM I can tell what grid I'm in.

[Gammanoob]

My only complaint is that there is no reason not to grab an ECM mech, especially a Light.

There is literally no reason apart from trying to be different for using anything but the Raven 3-L at the moment, anything another Light mech can do it can as well or better because of ECM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Ironbar Sinister, on 04 February 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

It doesn't.

ECM is fine.

lol lol lol
oh wait... you were serious?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Ironbar Sinister, on 04 February 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Sure I was!

I just go with the flow man - things change.

Im guessing you used to be just bad *** in that lagshielded ecm raven 3l

[Vlad Ward]

MischiefSC, on 04 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

snip

Players run into more advanced builds and tactics as they grow and become capable of competing with them. That's how ELO works. When you create a Mech that wrecks other people in your "tier", or grow to the point where you outclass the other pilots in your tier skill-wise, you start facing tougher pilots with better Mechs. This process continues indefinitely until you are the very best like no one ever was.

Finding new things in the higher tiers is part of what keeps that progression interesting. It's not just a matter of "leveling up". As you improve, the matchmaker starts throwing new types of opponents at you, many of which use builds or tactics you've never seen before. Learning to adapt to and overcome that is what keeps the game interesting.

What it comes down to, however, is the fact that putting Tabletop Battletech on a real-time platform just isn't that interesting. Some things can be made more challenging, more interesting, and more fun through innovation and reinvention.

There is absolutely zero point in running a Light or a Flank Medium with 360 degree radar. You can't sneak up on anyone. You can't hide behind cover. You just get smashed. Mechwarrior has always had a problem with Heavies being a pure upgrade to Mediums and Assaults being a pure upgrade to Heavies. MWO changed this dynamic to make the game more fun.

Likewise, there is absolutely no reason to run a Raven - *the* archetypal EW Mech - if Guardian ECM were to only disable Artemis IV and BAP within 180m. This is especially true considering neither of the Missile systems work the way they do in TT.

You could increase ECM's c-bill cost, or tonnage, or whatever you want and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. People are already making a sacrifice to use it (Not using a Jenner or a Stalker, etc). They're not going to stop just because they have to give up a couple more medium lasers or heat sinks.

I think we've come back to the point of the OP in this thread which is, essentially, "What, exactly, is it about ECM that makes people think they insta-lose against it?" Because ECM really doesn't do all that much.

Between ELO and integrated voice chat, adding release-quality features to this Beta game will be more than sufficient to handle the vast majority of complaints regarding ECM.

[Orzorn]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Likewise, there is absolutely no reason to run a Raven - *the* archetypal EW Mech - if Guardian ECM were to only disable Artemis IV and BAP within 180m. This is especially true considering neither of the Missile systems work the way they do in TT.

I think they would, if BAP and NARC were sufficiently dangerous, as in, actually worth a crap to use. Also, if ECM had the ability to create ghost signatures, they could be used for some pretty cool subterfuge.

At the current state, there is no information warfare. Its just ECM and TAG.

Quote

I think we've come back to the point of the OP in this thread which is, essentially, "What, exactly, is it about ECM that makes people think they insta-lose against it?" Because ECM really doesn't do all that much.

We don't insta lose, but ******** it if I don't hate it for what it does to the missile metagame. I can do just fine against something and still despise it for what it does to the game.

There seems to be this odd disconnect between believing that something is bad for the game, and people thinking that you've got to be losing to it for you to have a real reason to not like it. I got around pop tarting in MW4, but did I like it? Hell no I didn't.

Edited by Orzorn, 04 February 2013 - 04:49 PM.

[TigrisMorte]

IceCase88, on 03 February 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

1...****** Hussein said this when Coalition bombers were destroying his forces and ECM was protecting the bombers
2.... a whole 2 weapons
3...ECM blocks radar, sonar, and other detection methods including IR.
4... Iraqi SAMs were not able to lock onto Coalition bombers because of ECM.
5...20th-21st century ECM. Think sci-fi now and relate ECM to the 31st century.
6 Even TT confirms the present application of ECM in MWO....

You are seriously confused.
1: Stealth != ECM. Totally different tech.
2: You mean makes about 33% of all available weapon types a waste of tonnage. Not totally useless just a bad choice.
3: Please explain how ECM blocks sound and infrared light.
4: No they could not target the bombers because they were already destroyed.
5: unrealistic video games should never be compared to reality. It is stupid.
6: Not even remotely the same beyond the name.

Oh and a very cheap piece of highly effective stealth gear which is really only countered by itself, causes multiple variants to be largely ignored because they don't have it, and drastically increases the chance that the enemy shall be shot by their own team, is by any reasonable definition, overpowered.

The only folks who like ECM simply dislike long range combat.

It is unfortunate that the powers that be are judging its pervasiveness by looking at random pugs full of don't actually know or don't own a mech. Thus they think, not every match is full of ECM.
Where they need to look is the matches in which only one side fields ECM.

​If it were available on all chassis it would be on all chassis. The well that limits them argument is a false one as it simply means not having it on the variant makes the variant less valuable.

[DocBach]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

stuff about bap being useless

ECM was suppose to exist just to block out Narc, Artemis, Beagle, and C3, because all of those had more of a role in the board game. Here's a scenario on how Beagle and ECM interact in the source material.

Beagle in the board game allowed you to detect any unit in your bubble, regardless if you could see them or not (though you had to have line of sight to shut down units) -- imagine Mech A has Beagle and wants to scout the caldera, so instead of poking his head over the rim, he parks on the side and gathers sensor information through his Beagle without having to put himself in danger. Unless the enemy has a Beagle, he's also invisible to any enemies inside the caldera as well.

Mech B wants to cross through the caldera to get to the base, but he doesn't have ECM. He partners up with Mech C which is equipped with ECM, and the two cross the caldera undetected by Mech A's Beagle.

[MischiefSC]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Players run into more advanced builds and tactics as they grow and become capable of competing with them. That's how ELO works. When you create a Mech that wrecks other people in your "tier", or grow to the point where you outclass the other pilots in your tier skill-wise, you start facing tougher pilots with better Mechs. This process continues indefinitely until you are the very best like no one ever was.

Finding new things in the higher tiers is part of what keeps that progression interesting. It's not just a matter of "leveling up". As you improve, the matchmaker starts throwing new types of opponents at you, many of which use builds or tactics you've never seen before. Learning to adapt to and overcome that is what keeps the game interesting.

What it comes down to, however, is the fact that putting Tabletop Battletech on a real-time platform just isn't that interesting. Some things can be made more challenging, more interesting, and more fun through innovation and reinvention.

There is absolutely zero point in running a Light or a Flank Medium with 360 degree radar. You can't sneak up on anyone. You can't hide behind cover. You just get smashed. Mechwarrior has always had a problem with Heavies being a pure upgrade to Mediums and Assaults being a pure upgrade to Heavies. MWO changed this dynamic to make the game more fun.

Likewise, there is absolutely no reason to run a Raven - *the* archetypal EW Mech - if Guardian ECM were to only disable Artemis IV and BAP within 180m. This is especially true considering neither of the Missile systems work the way they do in TT.

You could increase ECM's c-bill cost, or tonnage, or whatever you want and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. People are already making a sacrifice to use it (Not using a Jenner or a Stalker, etc). They're not going to stop just because they have to give up a couple more medium lasers or heat sinks.

I think we've come back to the point of the OP in this thread which is, essentially, "What, exactly, is it about ECM that makes people think they insta-lose against it?" Because ECM really doesn't do all that much.

Between ELO and integrated voice chat, adding release-quality features to this Beta game will be more than sufficient to handle the vast majority of complaints regarding ECM.

For Elo to work that way you'd need a large player population with an even spread of player skills. In practice it doesn't work that way. It'll be very, very top-heavy right out of the gate. Unless you're saying that unless 23 other people within X range of your score are on you won't get a match (12v12) then you're still going to have large groups of experienced players vs very new players at certain times of day and large groups of brand new players at other times of day. It's not going to be that gradual. ECM experience certainly won't be.

The changes for TT for radar, hit detection and the like I get. Same with some mech balancing for lights, helps represent them being tougher to hit due to higher speed. I agree with and support them. TT limits access to higher mechs by rarity, GM fiat and point-buy values depending on what you're playing (Battletech the wargame vs Mechwarrior the RPG) and as such they really were in many ways a linear upgrade path though most would say that Mediums were the 'workhorse' and best overall choice. Clearly the opposite in MWO but I get why - though I do miss being able to seriously compete in a Centurion. Played one for a couple year campaign once back in the day but not everything is going to translate well.

I fully understand that from your perspective ECM isn't a big deal to you. Nothing that can't be worked around. That it's effectively a team-wide stealth shield requiring the artificial limitation of it to specific mechs which are purposefully gimped in other ways and the whole thing put in place to justify an intentional imbalancing of missiles is....

well, back to my original complaints.

As to fixing the complaints regarding ECM, the complaint is that it's a team-wide stealth shield and having it or not having it and in what numbers more or less makes or breaks a match. Elo isn't going to change that. Fixing missile balance and making it as useful but not more so than BAP, TAG or NARC would. I'm coming to the conclusion that's not going to happen though.

There I go, back to my prior arguments.


I would simply say that I don't agree with how ECM is implemented in the game and I find it sufficiently game-breaking as to reduce my enjoyment of it considerably. I play the game absolutely in spite of ECM and missiles in the game and it feels, at least from what I hear when I pug in game and on these and other forums when MWO gets brought up that I'm not alone. Elo will help for a lot of other problems and I look forward to it but will end up churning out in a bit as new games get released. I'm not here for hardcore team play and Elo or otherwise playing MWO can feel like getting kicked in the face most days because of that. Consuming something 'in spite of' as opposed to 'because of' is a significant consumer demotivator and makes winback, getting people who've left to come back, difficult.

Admittedly I'm clearly not the target market for the game, I'm just a big fan of the IP itself. I wish they'd open MW4 back up for download - I can't find my original copy and would happily buy a new one but apparently that's been shut down as an avenue as well. Hence my strong desire to see the game become something I want to play in the long run but I've been without a solid BT title I enjoyed for almost a decade, hopefully MWO will be successful and draw other offerings to the IP. I guess my best option for that is 'wait and see'.

[Vlad Ward]

DocBach, on 04 February 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

ECM was suppose to exist just to block out Narc, Artemis, Beagle, and C3, because all of those had more of a role in the board game. Here's a scenario on how Beagle and ECM interact in the source material.

Beagle in the board game allowed you to detect any unit in your bubble, regardless if you could see them or not (though you had to have line of sight to shut down units) -- imagine Mech A has Beagle and wants to scout the caldera, so instead of poking his head over the rim, he parks on the side and gathers sensor information through his Beagle without having to put himself in danger. Unless the enemy has a Beagle, he's also invisible to any enemies inside the caldera as well.

Mech B wants to cross through the caldera to get to the base, but he doesn't have ECM. He partners up with Mech C which is equipped with ECM, and the two cross the caldera undetected by Mech A's Beagle.

BAP is worthless in its tabletop implementation, as applied to a real-time game. There would be absolutely no reason not to equip a BAP on every Mech if it allowed you to radar through walls, and it would completely invalidate the design decision to make radar LOS-based (and make Lights not awful for the first time in Mechwarrior history).

Edited by Vlad Ward, 04 February 2013 - 05:02 PM.

[TigrisMorte]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

...ELO...

Electric Light Orchestra[color=#000000] ([/color]ELO[color=#000000]) have no ECM and should be left out of it.[/color]

http://youtu.be/28_unHqjVp0

[Orzorn]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

There would be absolutely no reason not to equip a BAP on every Mech if it allowed you to radar through walls

Just like there's no reason to not equip ECM on ECM capable mechs?

I mean, Jesus, BAP needs something. ECM has a laundry list of capabilities, and BAP doesn't even get a ****** end of the stick. It just gets no end at all.

Not saying that 360 degree, through terrain targeting on every mech is a good thing, but really, BAP needs something, anything at all, to make it worth taking. Right now its garbage.

Edited by Orzorn, 04 February 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

BAP is worthless in its tabletop implementation, as applied to a real-time game. There would be absolutely no reason not to equip a BAP on every Mech if it allowed you to radar through walls, and it would completely invalidate the design decision to make radar LOS-based (and make Lights not awful for the first time in Mechwarrior history).

I'd say limit paperdoll information without a bap also give it almost instant population of target data. Seeing who's beyond walls would be terribly useful, I know that in river city I'd find that more than worthwhile. Same with who's lurking around the corner in forest colony. I could find a good use for a BAP that worked off tabletop rules on every map.

Just saying, BAP could use some buffing up.

[Vlad Ward]

MischiefSC, on 04 February 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

As to fixing the complaints regarding ECM, the complaint is that it's a team-wide stealth shield and having it or not having it and in what numbers more or less makes or breaks a match.

This should not be happening with the current iteration of ECM. The effect is mostly psychological, based on my observations of the gross misinformation regarding ECM on these boards ("it makes people invisible", etc).

ECM does two big things. It forces LRM users to be team players, and it relegates SSRMs out of a reliable primary role.

Integrated voice chat will help a lot with coordinating through the radar disruption effects.

Regarding ELO, even if there are only 12 experienced players online, the system would still put them on opposite teams with 6 lower-tier players filling in the gaps. In no situation should you have a team full of high-ELO players facing a team of low-ELO players.