15 replies to this topic

[blazarian]

I have played MWO couple of weeks now and I think it has like endless potential for awesome features and content. I have played also World of Tanks and think that MWO reminds me about it in lots of ways when it comes to match and "business model" mechanics. The reason why I get bored with WoT was the way it is played (match mechanics).

Now with MWO I am having the same issue. The more I press the "Launch" button in the launcher, the more bored I get. I think by default addictive games cause you say "One more match and that's it" when you are about to quit but still play like for hours over, instead of thinking "Nah, I just can't" when you planned to play longer. The problem for me especially is the amount of waiting and actual gameplay/action in the game with this match mechanic that is currently featured.

So I decided to measure some match times and calculate averages earlier last week and the results were like this:

On my rough calculations (should be calculated more accurately, but just to carry my point here).. Match takes about 6 mins (wait for the mech to be available in launcher after the match included) when you either die or the match is naturally over. 55 secs from that time is waiting pre-match: 20 secs from "launch" to "waiting pilots", 25 secs from "waiting pilots" to "10 sec countdown" and of course the 10 secs from countdown to start of the match. The average "walk to action" takes about 1 minute and some seconds to that.

The "game results" waiting time is 30sec (+~3sec quit time).

So from 6 minute matches, you wait:
20 secs (launch -> waiting pilots)
25 secs (waiting pilots -> countdown)
10 secs (countdown -> start)
= 55 secs pre-match
33 secs (match end -> new launch with same mech)
= 1min 28 secs total

[As a note: 60 secs (walking to "action" from spawn)]

So:
88/360 * 100 = 24 % of the gametime is waiting.

If you add the walk to action time that repeats also in every match:
(88+60)/360 * 100 = 41% of the gametime is "waiting" or better said "doing nothing".

So, roughly said, if a player plays 20 matches in a day:
20 * 6 mins = 120 mins gametime
20 * 88 secs = 29 mins of 120 min gametime is purely waiting

So my suggestion is that the waiting time OR match lengths should be revised so the waiting time per match is more suitable. The game launch could be thought as a "join an game server and start new map" procedure in FPS games. And if you think about playing FPS game online, you ain't doing that procedure every 5 minutes. If you had to, I would bet that you get annoyed to it.

The match launch could be optimized in some way to minimize the waiting, or there could be a different match mechanic (or mode) for the game (instead of 1 round there could be several and maybe with different mechs selected pre-match? Or some gamemode that makes matches longer and puts players' focus to something else than just fraggin' each other asap or something like that.)

For me personally, it would be awesome to see matches that takes like 20 minutes each and you get also rationally the XP and CB. So 1.5 mins waiting is nothing in 20min match. This mechanic though needs some match revision when it comes to mech spawning (the idea of fe. 3 mechs for a player that he selects before the match that he can respawn in during the match).

What are your thoughts about the waiting in MWO and for example in WoT? Is it fine for you to pace between the launcher and in-game every ~6 minutes and wait in between? Do you tend to play MWO as much in a row as other games in which you are in the action "all the time"? Any comments community & devs?

Edited by blazarian, 04 February 2013 - 03:09 AM.

[RedMercury]

While I like your analysis, as a btech mux oldtimer, I just have to snicker at the idle time in this game. Why back in the old mux days, we'd walk an hour to claim a complex and dribble a little precum when we get a contact.

[Antarius]

about the 3-mechs pre-pick and respawn, its announced, its called hot-drop-match, or something like this. Pick 3 Mechs, if one dies you can spawn, how and where isnt said yet, with the 2nd...3rd.

long "wait" time before a match, will be lowered i believe, if the mechanisms get better. The first min of walking is part of the "fun", where to go, how to split up or stay together and with a fast scout you are "in action" after 15-20sec, mostly without big firefigths but you scout and try to not get hit by gauss, ppcs, lrm.
So if this time is to long for you, play a scout

[Stringburka]

I think if 12v12 battles and larger maps becomes a reality, this will also change it quite dramatically. 12v12 on larger maps doesn't just mean 50% more stuff to kill, it also increases the need for tactical positioning etc.

[Bhael Fire]

I think the OP is looking for the no-frills thrills (i.e., all action, no tactics) of Hawken. That game throws you into the game within seconds and you're being shot at almost immediately. Then when you die you can jump right back into the same match and get shot at again within seconds.

There's a reason they call MWO a "thinking man's shooter."

[Stringburka]

Bhael Fire, on 04 February 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

There's a reason they call MWO a "thinking man's shooter."

That might make sense if the time depicted as "waiting" where actually a planning or thinking phase.

If you note OP's calculations (though I have no idea whether they are correct):
20 secs (launch -> waiting pilots)
25 secs (waiting pilots -> countdown)
10 secs (countdown -> start)
= 55 secs pre-match
33 secs (match end -> new launch with same mech)
= 1min 28 secs total

1/4 of the game time is spent literally _waiting_, with no large opportunity to think. You get what map it is, you see where you spawn, you usually know your first tactic. You can't do any real planning as the map is locked away, during the last seconds of pre-match wait you can communicate through the chat but still not access the map or anything like it.

I agree that this should be a thinking persons shooter, it's part of what appeals to me with it. However, waits do not by themselves add to that. Longer matches with no respawn, slower speeds and more durable players than common in fps's is part of what brings tactics to the forefront of this game, not the long waits.

That said, I have no idea what to do about the wait (which I too find off-putting sometimes, enough to get me to do something except playing, which is probably good for me in that it won't get me as hooked but on the other hand shows that this is an issue).

Longer matches are a good idea for this, I think. Respawning is not.

[blazarian]

Replying to multiple posts..

Antarius, on 04 February 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

about the 3-mechs pre-pick and respawn, its announced, its called hot-drop-match, or something like this. Pick 3 Mechs, if one dies you can spawn, how and where isnt said yet, with the 2nd...3rd.

Wow, that sounds nice. Looking forward to that.

Bhael Fire, on 04 February 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

I think the OP is looking for the no-frills thrills (i.e., all action, no tactics) of Hawken. That game throws you into the game within seconds and you're being shot at almost immediately. Then when you die you can jump right back into the same match and get shot at again within seconds.

There's a reason they call MWO a "thinking man's shooter."

Good thing you mentioned Hawken, because I absolutely HATE it. I played it for a week or so, and Decided that it must be one of the most "doesn't feel a thing" games I have ever played. MWO in its current state is tens of times better. Hawken isn't just my cup of tea. What I want to see in MWO is longer matches or less waiting between them. I think they can optimize the waiting time in some way, for example "instant lobby" when game is launching and map is loading in which you could talk tactics before the map has loaded with every player. I'm a developer and GUI designer myself and usually a bit critical about user interface and usability designs. This design issue concerning the waiting is a small slap to player's face but is fixable. Just a small issue that could even be too much for some group of players in med-long-term. Funny to say, my best friend is worse than me when it comes to waiting, he isn't playing MWO with me because he hates the waiting parts that much.

Stringburka, on 04 February 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

That might make sense if the time depicted as "waiting" where actually a planning or thinking phase.

If you note OP's calculations (though I have no idea whether they are correct):
20 secs (launch -> waiting pilots)
25 secs (waiting pilots -> countdown)
10 secs (countdown -> start)
= 55 secs pre-match
33 secs (match end -> new launch with same mech)
= 1min 28 secs total

1/4 of the game time is spent literally _waiting_, with no large opportunity to think. You get what map it is, you see where you spawn, you usually know your first tactic. You can't do any real planning as the map is locked away, during the last seconds of pre-match wait you can communicate through the chat but still not access the map or anything like it.

I agree that this should be a thinking persons shooter, it's part of what appeals to me with it. However, waits do not by themselves add to that. Longer matches with no respawn, slower speeds and more durable players than common in fps's is part of what brings tactics to the forefront of this game, not the long waits.

That said, I have no idea what to do about the wait (which I too find off-putting sometimes, enough to get me to do something except playing, which is probably good for me in that it won't get me as hooked but on the other hand shows that this is an issue).

Longer matches are a good idea for this, I think. Respawning is not.

I love thinking and tactics, no doubt about it. But I can't stand "changing game server every 5 mins" what it feels like to launch a new game in MWO after one has ended. I'm not bashing MWO here, but bringing the waiting time aspect into consideration for the developers and I am excited to hear the ideas and solutions for this issue (at least for me!). Would be awesome to see some improvement in this area.

What you said about the more durable mechs.. I don't quite like that either.. people still go all-in and hug each other on the frontlines. What comes to spawning.. it surely was the solution in MW:LL.. you enjoyed the gameplay all the time and didn't feel like waiting for something to happen. The map lasted long and you could do bunch of things in a single match. I didn't ever feel that "nah, I should quit now". I kinda want the same feeling to MWO -- but WoT kind of match style isn't the way to go for me. A bit similar but in some way longer matches and bigger outcomes.

[Bhael Fire]

Stringburka, on 04 February 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

1/4 of the game time is spent literally _waiting_, with no large opportunity to think.

Yeah. I get that. I was mainly referring to the OP's comment on how long it takes to engage the enemy once the match starts.

[blazarian]

Bhael Fire, on 04 February 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Yeah. I get that. I was mainly referring to the OP's comment on how long it takes to engage the enemy once the match starts.

By action I mean "doing something that matters". It could be tactical flanking, straight rush to point X, spread and regroup, cap certain points... whatever would be the so called plan. Sadly in MWO there isn't much plans to be made, when every mode atm. is kinda TDM. One thing I have noticed, that the ones that rush from one place ALWAYS wins (well, at least 99% of the time ). Matches end like 8-2 every time with these rushes. I presented some suggestion to conquest mode also in other thread: http://mwomercs.com/...69#entry1837969

[SixActual]

More Equal matches may equal better play and then I'd agree with longer matches. An 8-0 match prolonged with 2 respawns just becomes 24-0 matches. Need some balancing IMO but yes I think if that happened I'd be all for longer matches, larger maps even if need be with multiple strategic points. I dont like the idea of instant action, but less time in the que would be good, but again thats based on a more equal team.

[blazarian]

SixActual, on 04 February 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

More Equal matches may equal better play and then I'd agree with longer matches. An 8-0 match prolonged with 2 respawns just becomes 24-0 matches. Need some balancing IMO but yes I think if that happened I'd be all for longer matches, larger maps even if need be with multiple strategic points. I dont like the idea of instant action, but less time in the que would be good, but again thats based on a more equal team.

But the game is an instant action game at the moment (matches take under 10 mins), so what does 1min walking at the start do to make the game "not to be a instant action game"? But yes.. you kinda agree with me on this, we want longer matches. I want to feel that the match means something instead of rushing it through (and wait the min or two to rush one through again).

[Stringburka]

blazarian, on 04 February 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

What you said about the more durable mechs.. I don't quite like that either.. people still go all-in and hug each other on the frontlines. What comes to spawning.. it surely was the solution in MW:LL.. you enjoyed the gameplay all the time and didn't feel like waiting for something to happen. The map lasted long and you could do bunch of things in a single match. I didn't ever feel that "nah, I should quit now". I kinda want the same feeling to MWO -- but WoT kind of match style isn't the way to go for me. A bit similar but in some way longer matches and bigger outcomes.

I didn't really mean mechs should be made more durable, more that when comparing MWO to many other action games, 'mechs are quite durable. Only the most powerful weapons will kill you on a single headshot, and most builds dont kill something their own size in less than 8 seconds unless lucky - compare that to games like CoD or counterstrike or what have you. That, combined with the unability to move as swiftly as in most shooter games, means that there's more time for tactics compared to a game where every second you risk getting sniped/headshotted/whatever.

MWO is less about millisecond reflexes and more about positioning, steering, and movement. That gives more time and more need for tactics, and allows one to change a tactic if it isn't working out - in other games, you pretty much have one plan when you begin playing and if it doesn't work you're dead. Here there is the opportunity to adapt.

I like that. I'm quite a bad shot and not that good at steering, but I'm quite good at adapting and finding ways to make use of opportunitys. This is an FPS where even I can join and enjoy despite not having the best hand-eye coordination or reflexes in the world.

Matches lasting longer would be great, as long as it isn't reduced to an endless grind against tougher and tougher enemies thick skin. 12v12 will do wonders, but so could things like repair & rearm, larger maps, and longer cap times.

I do not think that the minute or so spent moving is a waste of time - it might be for Atlases which arrive to the scene after the fighting has started, but for all fast 'mechs the first minute is maybe the most important and tense minute of the game. That's where I scout Upper River City, trying to make out numbers and compositions of those coming across the bridge while trying not to be seen. That's when I try to find the shortest route to cap point Theta in snowy valley, hoping that the enemy isn't there before me and waiting, looking out for their heat scans.

For a light pilot, that starts the second the match starts. I think that's much more interesting than when the game just ends up in a big brawling game in the middle.

I think larger maps would do a lot of good, as would stuff like static defenses and even npc ground troops. Those are probably way down the line, but I can't see any other good solution that I personally like.

[Bhael Fire]

blazarian, on 04 February 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Good thing you mentioned Hawken, because I absolutely HATE it. I played it for a week or so, and Decided that it must be one of the most "doesn't feel a thing" games I have ever played. MWO in its current state is tens of times better. Hawken isn't just my cup of tea.

Agreed. Hawken has some good level aesthetics, a nice authentic-looking militaristic HUD, and some nice fast-paced action...but overall it just feels empty and lacks the tactical depth that MWO has.

blazarian, on 04 February 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

What I want to see in MWO is longer matches or less waiting between them. I think they can optimize the waiting time in some way, for example "instant lobby" when game is launching and map is loading in which you could talk tactics before the map has loaded with every player.

Yeah, longer more tactically in-depth matches would be fantastic...and I hope they manage to achieve that with this game eventually. If any franchise deserves it, it's this one.

As for the wait time before matches, I can't say that it bothers me all that much. But I do wish matches lasted a little longer with more robust mission parameters instead of the usual kill/cap objectives.

[Eddrick]

I just want to add the fact that multiple people want to add filters to the matchmaker. Which, will take it longer to find a match because the matchmaker has more filters in it.

Give matchmaker filter controls to the players. Not, the server. So, they themselves can balance out how long they want to wait compared to how much they want the matchmaker to filter the people in queue.

[Corvus Antaka]

I really like your points regarding idle time. It is much to long, and infact it would be great to see this idle time allow faster loaders to load up the command match button and start setting strategies etc, instead of waiting for all the players to load in.

[INSEkT L0GIC]

I would like a little info screen (with map type & game mode like in the load screen - my computer is FAST so this only lasts like a second for me and i usually miss wither it is conquest or assault until in game) and/or ability to show map in the "waiting for players" and countdown pre-game to chat up strategy with fellow players before launch.

I mostly pug and that would be a HUGE improvement to pug matches.