55 replies to this topic

[Agent KI7KO]

Right, next wave of rebuttals.

Naberius, on 27 May 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

And you mistook slightly easier to penetrate with with AP Rounds that were used specifically to kill tanks. Oh and the Lowe actually has better armor and a better cannon than the Tiger 2. And the M6A2 is the M6 with the T29 Turret. The T54 is an MBT in a game where MBTs weren't really the mainstay. I'll say the KV5 is arguable. It's got good armor and a mass of HP that means even pinging R2D2 won't bring it down quickly, but it's cannon isn't the best for it's tier, a good meat shield if anything. The Ram-II sports good armor for it's tier and a fast firing high pen cannon. Oh and the T54, that thing is so absurd it deserves a second mention. But hey, most drivers of the tanks don't know how to abuse them as they should. It's why I enjoy engaging Lowes in my Wolverine. Always brings a grin to my face when I torch them.

But hey, you keep spending tons and tons of money, it helps the devs and I got a laugh every time I realized someone paid money to kill my T29.

On topic, this is a horrible idea, stick with aesthetics and C-Bill/XP boosters and the like. Cutting down on the grind, awesome. Giving someone a golden gun because they feel inadequate, not so much.

What's your point with the AP rounds again? HEAT and APCR do the same damage as AP rounds for their same guns, except for one gun in the game.

The Lowe is 120/80/80 hull versus the King Tiger's 150/80/80 with no flat front surface.

M6A2E1 has 44mm side armor, and really, are you comparing a Tier 8 premium to a Tier 7 standard tank? Of course the Tier 7 Heavy would beat the crap out of it.

T-54 is not a premium tank. I think you mean the Type 59. You know, the thing that falls apart when something it's own tier looks at it.

For the record, I drive Tier 9s. Haven't driven a premium in a long time, besides you know, my free T34 Heavy?

Toothman, on 27 May 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

WoT is not Korean. WoT is not play to win.

Stormeris, on 27 May 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Yes WoT is Russian/Belarussian whatever, Wot is not play to win but PAY to win

Spoken like people with sub <50% winrates!

[Jun Watarase]

RealSoladrin, on 27 May 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

1. Asian markets are way different from us.
2. Some people are just dumb.

Its not an asian market thing. Stuff like maple story is still massively popular in the west.

[Wintersprite]

I have to agree with the opinion that it brings the game too close to the feared pay to win. Have them in a mech with space to spare? Pay us and you can fit more weapons or armor! In a competetive game this is pretty much unacceptable.

If the mechs would have the same amount of extra criticals left after the standard configuration this could possibly be considered as a sidegrade when you'd have to replace something for the heatsinks. Even then it would give you some extra versatility and viable builds for money. And if any of those become the next cookie-cutter build, too bad for the people who don't have them.

As for unlocking the items, it's better but if you have played WoT you should know how much fun a stock tank is. If you can be viable without the double sinks this could work, but as above it's not likely in mechs with extra space. Having to grind for important upgrades is tedious after the first wave has unlocked them and you're supposed to somehow outperform a superior machine with a more experienced pilot.

I know you're trying to look for new sources of revenue but I can't agree with this idea.

[Agent KI7KO]

Premium. Skins. Experience Transfer.

Exactly what WoT does, and it's good enough. Early access to new tech would be great too.

Edited by Afoxi, 27 May 2012 - 07:59 AM.

[Juiced]

buying better armor, double heatsinks, other engines with cash money im fine with...as long as you can do the same with c-bills and that the c-bill price is not so phrohibitive that you basically HAVE to pay cash.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Afoxi, on 27 May 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

Premium. Skins. Experience Transfer.

Exactly what WoT does, and it's good enough. Early access to new tech would be great too.

1. Not everyone played WoT so your post leaves out those who didn't.

2. Premium varies by game, it's not an absolute even in this context. Care to elaborate?

3. XP transfer? From mech to mech? (again assumes people know we only have one pilot). Kind of defeats the purpose of learning a new mech doesn't it? Just keep playing the one you know, then instantly max out your new mech.

4. Skins is a great idea. The game with all the hats is a great example. If you know what I mean. (see what I did there)

[Ramien]

Nick Makiaveli, on 27 May 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

So what if they do have a C-bill cost to upgrade as well as a $-cost to upgrade?

It's only P2W if you cannot get it in game, or like in DDO where you have to max every character slot with every possible grind on EVERY SERVER to unlock everything on ONE server.

If cash is required, then it's P2W. If it's cash or C-Bills to upgrade, then that's using cash to accelerate the buying process and a temporary advantage at best, since anyone who plays enough will be able to afford it eventually.

[Naberius]

Afoxi, on 27 May 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

Right, next wave of rebuttals.





What's your point with the AP rounds again? HEAT and APCR do the same damage as AP rounds for their same guns, except for one gun in the game.

The Lowe is 120/80/80 hull versus the King Tiger's 150/80/80 with no flat front surface.

M6A2E1 has 44mm side armor, and really, are you comparing a Tier 8 premium to a Tier 7 standard tank? Of course the Tier 7 Heavy would beat the crap out of it.

T-54 is not a premium tank. I think you mean the Type 59. You know, the thing that falls apart when something it's own tier looks at it.

For the record, I drive Tier 9s. Haven't driven a premium in a long time, besides you know, my free T34 Heavy?






Spoken like people with sub <50% winrates!

Sorry, 54% win rate the last time I bothered to look. Probably tanked it messing around in frog early tier tanks. Sloping effectively increases armor considerably though, further if you angle it properly as well. If you were half as good as your wallet, you'd know that. But then again, not having to worry about that as much since Gold ammo gives you more reliable hits from more angles, you might not be as familiar with that.

Yes I did mean the Type 59, oh no, got a number wrong because I have a terrible memory. If you're using it to brawl in it's own tier instead of using it as... wait for it, an MBT like you know, it says on the tin, then it's a user error issue. The Lowe's sloped armor, as long as you keep the lower plate hidden is harder to effectively pen unless you have the high ground on it as with all other sloped armor. Again, might not be an issue you're as familiar with. I'll admit I was wrong on the M6A2 though, for some reason I thought it was tier 6 or 7, not tier 8. With that said, have fun with it. I think you might be in better company on their forums though.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Are you trying to tell me that the League players from MW4 etc will not be piloting optimised mechs within 2 hours of starting to play? Anyone who has played previous games will already have various builds already planned, the details waiting for play to confirm which way to go.
As the MechLab is there it will be used to make what people want to drive. I'm quite sure that many people will pay cash to upgrade rather than grind in something they don't enjoy as much.

[Agent KI7KO]

Naberius, on 27 May 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

Sorry, 54% win rate the last time I bothered to look. Probably tanked it messing around in frog early tier tanks. Sloping effectively increases armor considerably though, further if you angle it properly as well. If you were half as good as your wallet, you'd know that. But then again, not having to worry about that as much since Gold ammo gives you more reliable hits from more angles, you might not be as familiar with that.

Yes I did mean the Type 59, oh no, got a number wrong because I have a terrible memory. If you're using it to brawl in it's own tier instead of using it as... wait for it, an MBT like you know, it says on the tin, then it's a user error issue. The Lowe's sloped armor, as long as you keep the lower plate hidden is harder to effectively pen unless you have the high ground on it as with all other sloped armor. Again, might not be an issue you're as familiar with. I'll admit I was wrong on the M6A2 though, for some reason I thought it was tier 6 or 7, not tier 8. With that said, have fun with it. I think you might be in better company on their forums though.

Good news for you then, I am ranked top 2% of World of Tanks. While Gold Ammo gives you reliable hits from more angles, i am not sure you are familiar with APCR having ranged falloff and HEAT rounds having zero degrees normalization (AP rounds having 6 degrees which makes a big difference). Look it up, it's been answered in many Dev QA threads.

The Type 59 IS a brawler, because it's gun is one of the lower penetration ones for Tier 8 and the least accurate.

I'm not sure if you've seen the Lowe's Lower plate. It's huge. If you can keep that hidden, then you can do much better in a King Tiger.


Point is, there is literally no reason to buy Premium shells or a Premium tank, just a Premium status account and you can boast being the among the top players in pub mactches, which I have managed to do.

Edited by Afoxi, 27 May 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Arioch]

Question: how many more “I hate P2win” thread do we realy need to create? Seriously like 30% of the threads here start out or swerve into “I hate P2win”.

We get it already. There are those who will be willing to pay any amount of $$$ if it will let them win and we all know they are there and that they are tool bags and we hate them for it.

We hate people who cut in line at the movies or cut us off in traffic too. But they are a fact of life.

We also hate people who dominate a game because they can invest 12 hours a day in play time while some of us are lucky to get 2 hours a day.

There will always be a food chain with some at the top and some at the bottom and those at the bottom will shake their fists and complain about how unfair it is, while the ones on top will honk their horns and cut right in.

We get it we get it we get it.

Edited by Arioch, 27 May 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[Peiper]

Something to remember about even 'improved' and Lostech: most of it is really not that great. Everything has a trade-off. Double Heat sinks for clans take up 2 crits, but for inner sphere, they take up 3 Crits. That's A LOT of space. You can't even put one in each leg, as each leg has only 2 open crit slots.

The maximum number of double heat sinks a mech can have, assuming it does not have any weapons at all, is 12. (6 in the L/R torsos, and 4 in the arms). With the engines, you're talking 22 double heat sinks, or 44 heat. An inner sphere ER PPC takes up 3 slots, does 10 damage, and 15 heat. 3 ER PPC's would also knock out 3 double heat sinks. So, an Awesome with 3 ERPPC's would, with double heat sinks, be producing 45 heat per alpha strike, with 19 total double heat sinks. That's 38 heat loss for 45 heat gain. The pilot would already be beginning to cook.

Using single heat sinks, you're looking at a maximum of 57, ten in the engine.

Now, for this illustration, I am using the very maximum/extreme examples, but it makes my point. Inner Sphere double heat sinks aren't nearly as exciting as they sound. The mechlab seems to be doing it's best to copy tabletop battletech, at least in weapon weight and crit slots. Presuming the rest of battlemech construction goes the same way, the few pieces of Lostech and improved gear out there just before the clan invasion don't really break anything. Even the Gauss Rifle only has 8 shots per ton (in CBT, and the AC20 has less!)

I wonder how many people who have answered this pole really have any understanding of that. In MW4, for example, EVERY heat sink in the game was double, and you could put as many in as you had tonnage available, as crit spaces did not apply.

YES, clan tech really is that much better in CBT, but we're not talking clan tech.

Anyway, carry on with your pole, despite it's complete lack of scientific control! hehe

[Evex]

The way I see double heat sinks working in the game is that the devs will have to types of engines for each rating. One engine will be single heat sink, and another version will be double heat sink. This is because you can't mix single and double heat sinks. Just buying double heat sinks shouldn't change the ones that are built into the engine. In other words you would have to buy a new engine w/ double heat sinks and then replace the individual single heats sinks w/ double heat sinks. A rule of thumb I use is if the heat is under 20 I use single heat sinks, if its over 20 I would use double heat sinks.

[Tadakuma]

Of all the lostech upgrade double heatsinks are the most problematic.

More then any technology they are the one most likely to break the game because they alter one of the fundamental game mechanics heat dissipation.

It is also something that favours larger mechs over smaller mechs because the larger engines include more free heat sinks (meaning that the penalty for double heatsinks kicks in later)

An example of what the switch to double heatsinks can achieve is the the Wolfhound - 2, the only change in the mech is the swapping of the original heatsinks for double heatsinks and an upgrade to an ER Lg Laser. The orignal WLF-1 could fire it's large laser or it's trio of medium lasers, the WLF-2 can fire everything and only generate 1 pt of excess heat. The original has twice the short range firpower of the original and that's all down to double heat sinks.

I don't have an answer to the double heat sink issue, they represent such a massive change to power levels that I can't think of a way to gracefully add them into the MW:O without causing issues. I certainly hope the devs have an answer because this one tech has the ability to cripple the game with power imbalance..

[merz]

I think, with all of this 'tier' talk, we should remember and hope to all hell that MWO will NOT BE WORLD OF TANKS WITH MECHS. AT ALL. While definitely profitable for the developer in the short term, world of tank's endgame is extremely static and real-life cash-dependant, separating into dull experience grind of 'unlocking' - a lame, pavlovian design that artificially creates tedium in order to market ways of 'skipping the boring stuff' through microtransactions. its as dark of a design pattern as you can imagine.

What i'd like to see in MWO is an interactive, consequerable map with factions and independant units. A robust economy that allows not only an influx of c-bills but also a risk of tangible loss and resources to fight over. Looking forward to the game being a backwards design of endless unlocking/farming grind is seriously disheartening. surely we could aspire to more from a BT game, even one with microtransactions, than World Of Mechs.

Edited by merz, 27 May 2012 - 06:22 PM.