158 replies to this topic

[DeeZNuttS]

Well UO some people can't let go of the past.

[Dishevel]

Shismar, on 06 February 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Consumer laws may seem like the companies are getting the short end of the stick sometimes but they are there for a reason. Not everyone is so smart, rich and, powerful that they can stand up to multi-million dollar companies such as you and some of the other wealthy overachievers here that love to throw any amount of money at PGI for some cosmetics.

Many provisions in the usual TOS that online game companies use are on very shaky legal ground. But I doubt that anyone will ever take PGI to court over such minor sums. I also hear they are quite forthcoming regarding refunds. Still they may want to take care to reduce customer dissatisfaction when changing items purchased with MC.

I understand what you are saying.
Everyone I am sure agrees on the surface.
The problem is that when you consistently make laws to protect the those whom are least able to reason you end up with a horrible society.
If you are not smart enough to prevent yourself from whipping out the hair dryer while you are taking a shower the lack of a warning label should not be cause for suit. The lack of a warning label is to ensure that some do not survive to pass on their genes to future generations.
When society is set up so that the stupid and the lazy are given resources with which they use to breed then what you get is a society that has a larger and larger number of stupid and or lazy people.
Not good for a society as a whole but it is great for making you feel better when you sleep at night.

[Vapor Trail]

IIRC the whine in question was "I got refunded the MC I paid for the Phranken skin, and now it costs more."

Well, lets see what you can get for your money.

Mutliple comparison:



Upper Left: Phranken in all its (expensive) glory. Total cost: 3125 MC.
Three Premium color unlocks and a single use custom skin.
3 x 1000 + 125 = 3125 MC

Upper Right: Faking Phranken Level 1. Total cost: 1875 MC.
One Premium color unlock (Phranken Red), one Standard color unlock (Antimony), one Standard color unlock (on sale, Camo Black), single use custom skin.
1000 + 500 + 250 + 125 = 1875 MC.

Lower Left: Faking Phranken Level 2. Total Cost: 1375 MC.
Two Standard color unlocks (Antimony, Maroon), one Standard color unlock (on sale, Camo Black), single use custom skin.
500 x 2 + 250 + 125 = 1375 MC.

Lower Right: Faking Phranken Level 3. Total Cost: 875 MC, 625,000 cBills.
One Standard color unlock (Antimony), one Standard color unlock (on sale, Camo Black), one Basic color unlock (on sale, Basic Red), single use custom skin.
500 + 250 +125 = 875 MC, 625,000 cBills.

The more you spend on the colors however, the more you get out of them. That Phranken Red is pretty much the deepest and brightest shade of red available. The Phranken Black you can skip, and go with Camo Black, they're not that different. Phranken Light you could use, or you could go with Antimony for half the cost.

Anyway you approach this, you get more for the same expenditure than you used to.

Sure, you have to spend 3125MC on the first Mech you put Phranken on.

But every mech after that you only spend 125. All the color applications are FREE. And that includes for other patterns that come down the line.

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TL, DR: Quitcher whinin.
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[Accursed Richards]

Emerious, on 06 February 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

I understand what you are saying.
Everyone I am sure agrees on the surface.
The problem is that when you consistently make laws to protect the those whom are least able to reason you end up with a horrible society.
If you are not smart enough to prevent yourself from whipping out the hair dryer while you are taking a shower the lack of a warning label should not be cause for suit. The lack of a warning label is to ensure that some do not survive to pass on their genes to future generations.
When society is set up so that the stupid and the lazy are given resources with which they use to breed then what you get is a society that has a larger and larger number of stupid and or lazy people.
Not good for a society as a whole but it is great for making you feel better when you sleep at night.

Idiocracy was not a cutting-edge documentary on human genetics, you know.

[Strig]

Also worth noting, if you got the PC Gamer deal, you have a free Red, Black and Grey already (along with the base Green)

[Mercules]

Accursed Richards, on 06 February 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Idiocracy was not a cutting-edge documentary on human genetics, you know.

Nope, but it was very scary satire.

[Mordynak]

The PC Gamer CAMO and 3 colours is free....

[Bounty Dogg]

Matt Minus, on 06 February 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

Just because some EULAs might not be enforcable doesn't mean that none are. The fact that online games can change at any time seems to be widely accepted, otherwise there would be lawsuits associated with every nerf, and I would be able to cash out all my rmt when City of heroes closed down.

*Raises a Quiet Salute for the City that Heroes built*

[IronChance]

I don't care about the TOS and what's legal or not. This is a question of ethics and it is a clear case of a company acting unethically. You cannot take a purchase away from a consumer, refund their money, repackage it and then sell it back to the consumer at a higher price without crossing into the unethical end of the retail business pool. To paraphrase the service rep I talked with about this "Yes, we increased prices on everything but that's ok becuase now it's a much better product." That's snake-oil salesman talk. It's clearly wrong and I can't imagine why anyone would want to claim otherwise.

I had three mechs with custom paint jobs and colors - one was the atlas w/phranken. After the refund, I could only redo the atlas before running over the refund amount. If people want to call it fair because I can find a way to finagle a "sort-of-same" thing out of a much-improved customizing feature and probably get the mechs repainted to something close to what they were before, then that's fine and I'll concede it's a point worth noting and keeps it a game I'll continue to play. However, it does not make what they did ethical and it greatly deters me from putting any more cash into it in the immediate future.

What would have been ethical is simply to have unlocked what I had already paid for, but I'm guessing the funding must be drying up (or gone) for this project already for them to get so miserly about it. I actually HOPE it's just a greedy cash grab and not a sign of a serious funding problem.

[Vapor Trail]

Um... no.

Unethical is "oh... we've changed the system so that what you have now is no longer possible. So we're ditching the old system and you lose everything you put into it."

You at least got a fair shake by getting back every MC you put into the system. So "what you had before" is more expensive... because it isn't what you had before. The color unlocks are permanent and cross-chassis. So because you spent MC on colors when they were single use, you want the permanent unlocks?

What you want is a handout. Basically you got the entire time you ran the Phranken skin before Tuesday for FREE.

This is my analogy:
Let's say you buy a promotional GPS app for your phone. It's nice, but fairly barebones. You use said app for a month. Then, when the company discontinues the support for that app (effectively shutting it down so it no longer works), then refunds you the money you spent on it, and comes out with a much more powerful and robust system that includes something like the old system but has functions that are much more advanced, and due to that they decide to charge more to access the system. You claim that you should get to use that system, for a much reduced price, or for free?

Somehow, I don't think so.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 06 February 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[Exoth3rmic]

In total I "bought in" to MWO with MC packages twice.

I spent that MC on things that I wanted and was happy to part with the MC. That was prior to the patch.

Post patch I have everything that I planned to have previously - except for the 1 pattern (with colours) that I purchased for 1 mech. The MC refunded is not enough to re-purchase said pattern and colour on the 1 mech and (because of the prior planning of how to spend my 28800 MC) my remaining refunded MC will not cover its replacement.

The system now implemented is better than the one we had but my prior investment has somehow now left me with less than I had before (whether you put value on pixels or not) and without buying in for a 3rd time its not going be possible to for me to have the same virtual goods as I had not 2 days ago.

Edited by Exoth3rmic, 06 February 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[The Cheese]

Exoth3rmic, on 06 February 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

The system now implemented is better than the one we had before but my prior investment has somehow now left me with less than I had before (whether you put value on pixels or not) and without buying in for a 3rd time its not going to be possible to for me to have the same virtual goods as I had not 2 days ago.

Would you say that your reaction to the change has been... Exoth3rmic?

Spoiler

You seem pretty level headed about it really, but I couldn't resist

[Protoculture]

Bulu, on 05 February 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

so,if i want my franken atlas back i cant have it because now it cost me much more.ive already purchased the franken colors, they were mine and they dont have the moral right to undo the deal without my permision. dont care if i agreed or not somewhere

I find the idea that any corporation anywhere has morals in anyway whatsoever resembling that of an even moderately thinking sane person laughable. Corporations are sociopathic schizophrenics *BY DESIGN*.

[Exoth3rmic]

The Cheese, on 06 February 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Would you say that your reaction to the change has been... Exoth3rmic?

Hehe I save that for the battlefield.

[HiplyRustic]

Protoculture, on 06 February 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I find the idea that any corporation anywhere has morals in anyway whatsoever resembling that of an even moderately thinking sane person laughable. Corporations are sociopathic schizophrenics *BY DESIGN*.

They have to be, if they don't act that way they fall prey to activist Randian shareholders.

[Particle Man]

i didnt realize that having to re-buy paint was such a game breaking issue.

[Eric darkstar Marr]

Tichorius Davion, on 05 February 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Still waiting on the definition of Etics.

I think and it is only a guess the OP wanted to say Ethics, though I am not sure that ethics take play here as the did nothing unethical to there business or client base.

Since it is in Open Beta and you know things will continue to change for better or worse there is no ill morale standing so therefore it was ethically viable for them to change the paint scheme.

And an quick edit. PGI/IGP mission statement would set out the ethical values of the companies.

Edited by Eric darkstar Marr, 06 February 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[Bam MacGonzo]

Phrankly, I found it to be a LOT cheaper... I saved over 3k MC as I had bought a colour scheme for all 14 of my mechs, as well as a single Phranken pattern. I had used all the Phranken colours on my mechs but after I used the new system to buy back the colours and a single use of the pattern I still had enough MC left over to buy an ECM Raven.

I applaud the devs for their decision, and look forward to what ever else they do to the game.

[Ravn]

Jebus Chrysler, how did this topic make it 8 pages?

[The Cheese]

Ravn, on 06 February 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Jebus Chrysler, how did this topic make it 8 pages?

Stranger still is the fact that it's still not locked...