298 replies to this topic

[Sifright]

SI The Joker, on 06 February 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Well then maybe the MGs they have in-game are at least somewhat OK then, if I'm looking at them from a .50 standpoint. In my mind even a .50 would seem pretty darn useless against something like a mech...




20mm against infantry... My word BT universe... ouch!

In battle tech they enjoy breaking the Geneva convention on a daily basis

Using that bore against infantry is a war crime isn't it?

Mind you so is using a flamer.

Quote

The Machine Gun is manufactured on the following planets:
Brand Planet Company
Gatling Gun 20mm Ares Quikscell Company
Gatling Gun 20mm Layover Quikscell Company
Gatling Gun 20mm Kalidasa Quikscell Company
Gatling Gun 20mm Gallery Quikscell Company
Armstrong MiniGun Ramora United Outworlders Corporation
Blackwell B75 Outreach Blackwell Heavy Industries
Bulldog Minigun Ingersoll Bulldog Enterprises
Bulldog Minigun Proserpina Bulldog Enterprises
Double-Gun New Avalon Achernar BattleMechs
Coventry Light Autogun Coventry Coventry Metal Works
GM MiniGun Salem General Motors
Johnston MiniGun New Syrtis Johnston Industries
Kicker Skye Cyclops Incorporated
LFN Linblad Grand Base Earthwerks Incorporated
LFN Linblad Tematagi Nimakachi Fusion Products Limited
LFN Linblad Wallis Ronin Incorporated
LFN Linblad Illiushin Vandenberg Mechanized Industries
MainFire MiniGun Belladonna Cal-Boeing of Dorwinion
Maxi Mini Menke Ceres Metals Industries
Mydron Mini-Gun Bithinia Bithinian Ballistics
ScatterGun Light New Earth New Earth Trading Company
SperryBrowning Hun Ho LexaTech Industries
SperryBrowning Canopus IV Majesty Metals and Manufacturing
SperryBrowning Indicass Ceres Metals Industries
SperryBrowning MacLeod's Land Pinard Protectorates Limited
SureFire MiniGun Coventry Coventry Metal Works
SureFire MiniGun Pandora Red Devil Industries
Voelkers 200 Stewart Corean Enterprises
Voelkers 200 Pinard Vandenberg Mechanized Industries

So yea MG on mechs in BTech are actually 20mm cannons.

Edited by Sifright, 06 February 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[EmperorMyrf]

Completely ignoring real world applications of MGs and just looking at game balance, I'd be very ok with a range boost on the MG, along with a velocity boost. It currently moves as fast as an LRM, 100 "speed units", and it would be a little easier to use with it getting near the 1000-1500 range.

Also it should be noted that the MG is not very precise, as it carries a spread value not unlike the LB-X. So those worried about easy shredding at range with the MG shouldn't be unless the target has gone completely internal all over.

270-450m should be plenty.

[stjobe]

Gaan Cathal, on 06 February 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

That's the GAU-8, for reference.

Funny thing about the GAU-8, it weighs about half a ton for just the gun, and about 1.5 tons for the fully loaded complete weapon system. Its shells weigh about half a kg - which would mean 2000 to the ton.



Either way, I think we can safely say that the 500kg, 2000 rounds per ton BattleTech MG is a far cry from a M249.

Edit: Oh, and to buff the MG - just triple its damage. It'll instantly make it a viable light 'mech weapon, and a good backup weapon for larger 'mechs. It'll put it ahead of the Small Laser in theoretical DPS, but its short range, ammo dependency, risk of ammo explosion, and continuous-fire mechanic would put it roughly on par with the Small Laser in practice.

Edited by stjobe, 06 February 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[Jacmac]

FupDup, on 05 February 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

So far we haven't been informed of how big the crit multiplier will be. With a base damage of 0.04, the multiplier would have to be monstrously huge for them to be viable. For instance, if their multiplier was 3x damage on crits, they would take 25 shots (0.12 damage each) to destroy a component that has 3 health (i.e. Gauss Rifle or ECM). Hardly viable, especially when you factor in components that have 10 health (which would take 84 shots assuming a 3x multiplier).

What if the damage was raised to 0.1 and the crit multiplier was 10x?

[Sifright]

Jacmac, on 06 February 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

What if the damage was raised to 0.1 and the crit multiplier was 10x?

1 DPS would be acceptable. I mean mechs that were forced to use just machine guns would still be **** but they wouldn't be so useless the other team ignores you until you are the last mech alive.

[EmperorMyrf]

Jacmac, on 06 February 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

What if the damage was raised to 0.1 and the crit multiplier was 10x?

IIRC the chance of landing any number of criticals was something like 40%? This means after at most roughly 300 rounds (30 seconds of firing) that armor component should be void of any equipment, even if it was fill-packed with something like heat sinks. The component will have also taken 30 damage, which is enough to strip arms, legs, and some side torsos.

And that's just with one MG

[Sifright]

stjobe, on 06 February 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Funny thing about the GAU-8, it weighs about half a ton for just the gun, and about 1.5 tons for the fully loaded complete weapon system. Its shells weigh about half a kg - which would mean 2000 to the ton.



Either way, I think we can safely say that the 500kg, 2000 rounds per ton BattleTech MG is a far cry from a M249.

Edit: Oh, and to buff the MG - just triple its damage. It'll instantly make it a viable light 'mech weapon, and a good backup weapon for larger 'mechs. It'll put it ahead of the Small Laser in theoretical DPS, but its short range, ammo dependency, risk of ammo explosion, and continuous-fire mechanic would put it roughly on par with the Small Laser in practice.

perfect post agree completely. Would read again. Its shame no one else will

[Gaan Cathal]

Sifright, on 06 February 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

In battle tech they enjoy breaking the Geneva convention on a daily basis

Using that bore against infantry is a war crime isn't it?

Mind you so is using a flamer.

"In Battletech"? High-bore ballistics, explosives under 400g in weight and landmines are widely used in modern warfare despite all being banned weapons. Most of the Conventions are more or less ignored these days, to be honest. By comparison some of the BT fluff is fairly civilised from what I can see. Isn't the whole basis of their 'rules of war' the minimisation of civilian casualties, infrastructure etc? That's more or less the reverse of current military trends.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 06 February 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Sifright]

Gaan Cathal, on 06 February 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

"In Battletech"? High-bore ballistics, explosives under 400g in weight and landmines are widely used in modern warfare despite all being banned weapons. Most of the Conventions are more or less ignored these days, to be honest. By comparison some of the BT fluff is fairly civilised from what I can see. Isn't the whole basis of their 'rules of war' the minimisation of civilian casualties, infrastructure etc? That's more or less the reverse of current military trends.

Clanners are supposed to be pretty heavily against civilian casualties. Most of the Innersphere doesn't give a crap one way or the other though.

[Joseph Mallan]

Clay Pigeon, on 06 February 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

90m is a bit short.

Tell me about it. Rail Guns can shoot for Miles. but in The Game its 1000m! Just sayin man.

[Novawrecker]

stjobe, on 06 February 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

... and to buff the MG - just triple its damage.

As much as one would believe this is a good idea, it's not. Tripling it's damage would mean it does 0.12 damage. Translates into 1.2 dps. Mount 4 of those puppies (extremly easy and viable in the game on several mechs) and you now have 4.8 dps (VERY close to medium laser damage, and DPS closely compared to an AC 20), in your back, every second, for 0 heat. The only downside? Ammo dependant and 90m range (both easily rectified by savvy pilots).

People need to start looking a the greater picture of things. Something most, for some miraculous reason, continue to ignore.

[Sifright]

Novawrecker, on 07 February 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

As much as one would believe this is a good idea, it's not. Tripling it's damage would mean it does 0.12 damage. Translates into 1.2 dps. Mount 4 of those puppies (extremly easy and viable in the game on several mechs) and you now have 4.8 dps (VERY close to medium laser damage, and DPS closely compared to an AC 20), in your back, every second, for 0 heat. The only downside? Ammo dependant and 90m range (both easily rectified by savvy pilots).

People need to start looking a the greater picture of things. Something most, for some miraculous reason, continue to ignore.

The other down sides include having to constantly aim for the same point ALL THE TIME with no chance to re adjust aim when your missing or ability to use cooldown of weapons for evasion.

Even knocking up to 1.2dps wont be make it over powered.

at 1.2 DPS it is still the worst ballistic.

Edited by Sifright, 07 February 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[stjobe]

Novawrecker, on 07 February 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

As much as one would believe this is a good idea, it's not. Tripling it's damage would mean it does 0.12 damage. Translates into 1.2 dps. Mount 4 of those puppies (extremly easy and viable in the game on several mechs) and you now have 4.8 dps (VERY close to medium laser damage, and DPS closely compared to an AC 20), in your back, every second, for 0 heat. The only downside? Ammo dependant and 90m range (both easily rectified by savvy pilots).

People need to start looking a the greater picture of things. Something most, for some miraculous reason, continue to ignore.

Yes. You're quite right, four MGs at 1.2 DPS would be close to medium laser damage.

FOUR MGs would be close to a SINGLE medium laser.

At triple the weight, the need to constantly keep it on-target, ammo dependency, the risk of ammo explosion, and shorter range.

I'm sorry, I can't really do anything but shake my head in astonishment at anyone claiming that's overpowered.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 07 February 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

At triple the weight, the need to constantly keep it on-target, ammo dependency, the risk of ammo explosion, and shorter range.

I'm sorry, I can't really do anything but shake my head in astonishment at anyone claiming that's overpowered.

Small weapons (per type)
Small Laser. SRM2, SSRM2, LRM5, AC2

Medium weapons (per type)
Medium laser, SRM4, LRM10, AC5

Heavy weapons (per type)
Large Laser, SRM6, LRM15, AC10

Assault weapons (per type)
PPC, LRM20, AC20, Gauss

Looking at Ohm's weapon list... A flamer and a MG were comparably the same damage weapons. But Flamers WERE getting 10 times the damage or double the MAX DPS (ie 0.66). make the MG equal to the original flamer damage Ohm listed. That is fair for weapons that were for soft targets.

EDIT:
2/3 as strong as a small laser at 0.66 per second.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 February 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 February 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

[list snip]

At 6 tons, 4 DPS, and a range of 2160m, the only way an AC/2 is a small weapon is if you're ignoring the facts and go by the little number after the slash there.

The facts are that there's a light-weight and viable short-range missile weapon.
The facts are that there's a light-weight and viable long-range missile weapon.
The facts are that there's a light-weight and viable energy weapon.
The facts are that there's no light-weight and viable ballistic weapon.

Joseph Mallan, on 07 February 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Looking at Ohm's weapon list... A flamer and a MG were comparably the same damage weapons. But Flamers WERE getting 10 times the damage or double the MAX DPS (ie 0.8). make the MG equal to the original flamer damage Ohm listed. That is fair for weapons that were for soft targets.

It's a start. Make the MG 0.8 DPS. My bet is that still won't make it viable, but at least it's better than it is now.

[Joseph Mallan]

St.jobe, It is the Small AC. making the MG 0.8 with no heat... no I don't roll with it. the .66(.7) DPS makes it as weak as it should be compared to the small laser.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 February 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[Wyzak]

Enervation, on 05 February 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

lmao tanking weapons in mwo
BOOMrattarattaCRASHrattarattaBOOMBOOMrattarattaratta
"gah! infuriating background noise, must smash machinegunner!"

that line is funnier if you envision the hulk squeezed into a mech's cockpit, shaking his fist over the tiny controls

Or Nikolai Malthus and the way the animators had those huge veins popping out where there weren't muscles!

[FupDup]

stjobe, on 07 February 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

It's a start. Make the MG 0.8 DPS. My bet is that still won't make it viable, but at least it's better than it is now.

0.8 DPS x 4 MGs (assuming a Spider 5K or Cicada 3C) makes 3.2 DPS...so if your aim is good I guess the lack of heat buildup combined with that damage might make them a tiny bit useful. Still pretty questionable.

[Gaan Cathal]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 February 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

St.jobe, It is the Small AC. making the MG 0.8 with no heat... no I don't roll with it. the .66(.7) DPS makes it as weak as it should be compared to the small laser.

It might be the small AC, but at six tons before ammo it's not the 'light mech scale' ballistic.

[Tice Daurus]

You guys are forgetting something here...the armor plating on all Battlemechs were made to withstand low ballistic weapons like machine gun fire and cannon shells. See the history of the Mackie Battlemech taking on an entire company of tanks and infantry...

Anyway, the reason why MG only does 2 points of damage TT at such close ranges to other Battlemechs is because after 90 meters the MG bullets lose power to do the damage after 90 meters (3 hexes range) and thus anything beyond it wasn't mentioned. I'm sure MG go a longer range when it comes to infantry and lower armored weaponry, however, they never counted it because warfare has changed in the 31st century.

Plus according to canon lore, the armor plating was specially made to resist low ballistic impacts for machine gun weaponry as a standard. You'd have to use high caliber, high powered ballistics like greater than a .50 caliber round or AC/2 round to penetrate the armor. The armor was specially layered, using radiation techniques and specialize carbon compounds to show low ballistic weapons would not pentrate and the only way to do the damage would be high calliber ballistics or massive chain-fire to slowly chew off the armor.

I'm sure the weaponry ranges would go higher against infantry, but these are battlemechs.