443 replies to this topic

[DEN_Ninja]

Thirdstar, on 06 February 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

My personal opinion is that the highlighted point should be only consideration. It's my pet peeve and one of the very few things i'm hardline about. Gameplay trumps everything.

Well I just played a game with a spider 5k just to try out quad MG's. It was mediocre at best. I only fished out a kill and that's only because I chased down a Newbie HBK player. The damage output of only .16 even with 10 round burst makes it 1.6 damage.

So with me keeping within 90m optimal range with quad MG's I fish out 1.6 damage per burst. 2 Tons of MG plus 3 tons of MG Ammo and I only do as much damage as barely over half the damage of a small laser at ten times the tonnage cost. I will admit that it has GREAT crit seeking potentially but it does so little actually damage that the crits could hardly do enough damage. Most of the damage came from my medium laser.

I'd agree with a huge adjustment to the crit system specifically for the MG plus a buff to double the damage of the current MG from .04 to .08 would be the best idea. That way even with the quad Machine Gun Array MG will only do .24 per shot at 2.4 per burst. It is still crap but it is decent crit seeking crap.

I actually like using the stacked MG or ghetto rigged MG Array. I would never let the MG go over 1 damager per burst or .1 a shot but at the .06 to .08 range sound about right.

I will continue tests through out the the day. Otherwise the MG IS and CAN BE a decent brawl weapon for any medium or light. With proper Crit System adjustment it can be GREAT because it will take out inner components like easy. I did manage 2 component destruction points but I was firing constantly at one target and I can easily say 50% of my shots missed because of the Projectile Speed timed with having to aim and move with a fast mech cuts down accuracy even with good gunnery skills

Edited by Tichorius Davion, 06 February 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Kousagi, on 06 February 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

If they gave MG's a .6 damage per sec ( .06 damage per bullet ), it would lower the amount of time to do 2 damage to 3 sec's, which brings it in line with small lasers rate of damage. Plus gives it the 1/3 rate of fire of TT like other weapons. Thats amount the highest buff I could see for MG's, but even with that they would not be useful to people...

The thing is, they'd be more useful with (for the sake of argument) SLAS stats than SLAS are, purely because while SLAS are essentially invalidated by MLAS, there isn't a 1 ton competitor that fits in a ballistic slot. If an MLAS was 3-4 tons, for example, you'd see a lot more SLAS-equipped light mechs, despite it still being a poor weapon.

[Sifright]

Tichorius Davion, on 06 February 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Well I just played a game with a spider 5k just to try out quad MG's. It was mediocre at best. I only fished out a kill and that's only because I chased down a Newbie HBK player. The damage output of only .16 even with 10 round burst makes it 1.6 damage.

So with me keeping within 90m optimal range with quad MG's I fish out 1.6 damage per burst. 2 Tons of MG plus 3 tons of MG Ammo and I only do as much damage as barely over half the damage of a small laser at ten times the tonnage cost. I will admit that it has GREAT crit seeking potentially but it does so little actually damage that the crits could hardly do enough damage. Most of the damage came from my medium laser.

I'd agree with a huge adjustment to the crit system specifically for the MG plus a buff to double the damage of the current MG from .04 to .08 would be the best idea. That way even with the quad Machine Gun Array MG will only do .24 per shot at 2.4 per burst. It is still crap but it is decent crit seeking crap.

I actually like using the stacked MG or ghetto rigged MG Array. I would never let the MG go over 1 damager per burst or .1 a shot but at the .06 to .08 range sound about right.

the problem with that idea, is that it still would only effect the mech when its internals are blasted open. By which point the mech will die in a few seconds.

[Thirdstar]

Tichorius Davion, on 06 February 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Well I just played a game with a spider 5k just to try out quad MG's. It was mediocre at best. I only fished out a kill and that's only because I chased down a Newbie HBK player. The damage output of only .16 even with 10 round burst makes it 1.6 damage.

So with me keeping within 90m optimal range with quad MG's I fish out 1.6 damage per burst. 2 Tons of MG plus 3 tons of MG Ammo and I only do as much damage as barely over half the damage of a small laser at ten times the tonnage cost. I will admit that it has GREAT crit seeking potentially but it does so little actually damage that the crits could hardly do enough damage. Most of the damage came from my medium laser.

I'd agree with a huge adjustment to the crit system specifically for the MG plus a buff to double the damage of the current MG from .04 to .08 would be the best idea. That way even with the quad Machine Gun Array MG will only do .24 per shot at 2.4 per burst. It is still crap but it is decent crit seeking crap.

I actually like using the stacked MG or ghetto rigged MG Array. I would never let the MG go over 1 damager per burst or .1 a shot but at the .06 to .08 range sound about right.

Well that's the issue isn't it, even if you double the damage and implement more 'crit seeking' you're really better off applying some laser or SRM damage to the exposed internals. I if the armor is stripped even an SL will just kill the damn mech dead instead of mucking about with destroying components.

[DEN_Ninja]

Sifright, on 06 February 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

the problem with that idea, is that it still would only effect the mech when its internals are blasted open. By which point the mech will die in a few seconds.

You are not playing the game right if you are dying in seconds after losing outer armour. Most people will have gotten the hell out of dodge unless they are doing a stupid blind charge. And PGI did state somewhere that the MG is suppose to be a weapon that takes advantage of exposed internals. It is suppose to either crit systems inside or even take out the internal itself.

My medium laser does all the outer armour damage anyways. I only engaged targets previously hit so they are already red. With timing and a fast mech you can do a run by with a single med laser, help a lock on, and then proceed to try and chew away with MG's if not you run.

[Joseph Mallan]

Fup, Did you know Machine guns lower a Mechs BV? played against a guy who trying to fit 4 Stone Rhinos in to a 10,000 BV game loaded his Mechs with 12 MGs instead of 3 jump jets. mechs BV was so low he was not only able to bring the 4 Stone Rhinos BUT was able to have them with 1/1 Pilot/Gunners. 12 Gauss with Master gunners.

i have suspicions as to why people want these weapons, and the reasons I see are not as noble as is being presented here.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 February 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[DEN_Ninja]

Thirdstar, on 06 February 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Well that's the issue isn't it, even if you double the damage and implement more 'crit seeking' you're really better off applying some laser or SRM damage to the exposed internals. I if the armor is stripped even an SL will just kill the damn mech dead instead of mucking about with destroying components.

For me that is the easy trade off. The laser is a beam just like the rest of the weapons you have to keep it on target with the internals. If not the damage splashes onto other parts.

For the MG it is a projectile system. If I hit the exposed internal I hit it. The bullet won't move across the body of the mech like you would with a laser while in a fast light mech. Besides with the rate of fire with a doubled MG you technically can have the potential to do more damage than say with a small laser.

Edited by Tichorius Davion, 06 February 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[Sifright]

Tichorius Davion, on 06 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

You are not playing the game right if you are dying in seconds after losing outer armour. Most people will have gotten the hell out of dodge unless they are doing a stupid blind charge. And PGI did state somewhere that the MG is suppose to be a weapon that takes advantage of exposed internals. It is suppose to either crit systems inside or even take out the internal itself.

My medium laser does all the outer armour damage anyways. I only engaged targets previously hit so they are already red. With timing and a fast mech you can do a run by with a single med laser, help a lock on, and then proceed to try and chew away with MG's if not you run.

I'm piloting an A1 cat. You either die after one shot or two against me.

There isn't much opportunity to run away.

[DEN_Ninja]

Sifright, on 06 February 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

I'm piloting an A1 cat. You either die after one shot or two against me.

There isn't much opportunity to run away.

Yeah, that is if you can aim. Splat cats are easy pickings if you know how to abuse the catapult blind spots. By the way I am a founder's Cat user. I know how Catapults work even with the wonderful torso twist. You couldn't hit a bloody thing if I got behind you and I'd have enough time to flee going at 129kph before you figured out if I fled your left or right flank.

Cat Arm's don't move horizontally. Remember that when your arms move up and down while you try to turn your mech left before I do zero point turn with JJ's and go the other way,

Edited by Tichorius Davion, 06 February 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[Sifright]

Tichorius Davion, on 06 February 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Yeah, that is if you can aim. Splat cats are easy pickings if you know how to abuse the catapult blind spots. By the way I am a founder's Cat user. I know how Catapults work even with the wonderful torso twist. You couldn't hit a bloody thing if I got behind you and I'd have enough time to flee going at 129kph before you figured out if I fled your left or right flank.

Back to Wall. Good luck getting behind me?

Inside a cave good luck running through with out me shooting you first.

In a map with lots of cover? Good thing you could run into my fire zone with out knowing i'm there?

most heavy mechs can blast internals apart in seconds if they can aim.

[DEN_Ninja]

Sifright, on 06 February 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Back to Wall. Good luck getting behind me?

Inside a cave good luck running through with out me shooting you first.

In a map with lots of cover? Good thing you could run into my fire zone with out knowing i'm there?

most heavy mechs can blast internals apart in seconds if they can aim.

If your back is to the wall I don't need to do crap. You are putting yourself out of the fight and I can just go engage another target while you sit there all pretty.

You act like I am trying to aggressively get kills with a quad MG build. The point is that the MG is something that can chase down any mech with exposed internals that a slow mech can't.

Besides I fulfill the role of a light in this aspect. We aren't suppose to even kill. We scout, we harass, we distract. The more you focus on the tiny flying spider the better. I did my job and hopefully that rain of LRM's will over take you or a nice Cataphract will pump AC/5 into your rear.

Edited by Tichorius Davion, 06 February 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 February 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Fup, Did you know Machine guns lower a Mechs BV? played against a guy who trying to fit 4 Stone Rhinos in to a 10,000 BV game loaded his Mechs with 12 MGs instead of 3 jump jets. mechs BV was so low he was not only able to bring the 4 Stone Rhinos BUT was able to have them with 1/1 Pilot/Gunners. 12 Gauss with Master gunners.

i have suspicions as to why people want these weapons, and the reasons I see are not as noble as is being presented here.

We don't have BV in MWO (yet?), although the Stone Rhino example sounds quite lulzy. TT didn't have hardpoint restrictions either (12 ballistic hardpoints here would be hillarious).

I dunno about everybody else's reasons, but I just wanna to be able to fill up every ballistic slot in one of those three aforementioned light/medium mechs without severely gimping the mech. I can definitely accept some form of compromise involving deleting the MG entirely and putting in an AC/1 or Magshot (or some other weapon) in its place. Then both sides would be happy.

Edited by FupDup, 06 February 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[DEN_Ninja]

We can argue strategy all day.

This thread is about balancing MG's however. In the end the only way to make MG's the slightest bit viable is to increase the crit chance or the multiplier. In addition to doubling the damage output. The MG will never be as good as the Small Laser but it is meant to be like a different shade. If we wanted ballistics to match energy weapons then what is the point. The MG is great for fast infighting or brawling on lights. On anything heavier it should be there to crit seek while other weapons are on cool down. It also makes for a great filler if you have the extra 1.5 tons.

[AlanEsh]

Tichorius Davion, on 06 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

You are not playing the game right if you are dying in seconds after losing outer armour. Most people will have gotten the hell out of dodge unless they are doing a stupid blind charge. And PGI did state somewhere that the MG is suppose to be a weapon that takes advantage of exposed internals. It is suppose to either crit systems inside or even take out the internal itself.

My medium laser does all the outer armour damage anyways. I only engaged targets previously hit so they are already red. With timing and a fast mech you can do a run by with a single med laser, help a lock on, and then proceed to try and chew away with MG's if not you run.

His point was, or if i'm misstating his let's just use it as my point, is that Crit-Seeking after armor is breached is inferior to simply doing more damage all the time. I will never, ever, mount a weapon just because it crits in this manner. With more damage output i get to strip armor faster and destroy the internal structure faster. I don't give a flip about possibly maybe having a better chance of randomly getting a crit kill on a guy's medium laser. Certain damage vs situational random bonus... i'll take option 1.

[The Mecha Streisand]

Tichorius Davion, on 06 February 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

So the Ballistic Slots on all Lights are effectively useless because no self respecting light pilot will put an AC/2 on it.

Not true, unless I lack self-respect (admitted, that's possible). I ran a 5K with an AC2 and a ML. Had to strip all the JJs off, but I don't use them much anyhow.

[DEN_Ninja]

Angelicon, on 06 February 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

His point was, or if i'm misstating his let's just use it as my point, is that Crit-Seeking after armor is breached is inferior to simply doing more damage all the time. I will never, ever, mount a weapon just because it crits in this manner. With more damage output i get to strip armor faster and destroy the internal structure faster. I don't give a flip about possibly maybe having a better chance of randomly getting a crit kill on a guy's medium laser. Certain damage vs situational random bonus... i'll take option 1.

I am saying that the crit system itself for the MG should be that of an actual critical hit system where if it does destroy something it ought to be doing more damage, this is where the multiplier adds in. The advantage of the MG is that it doesn't actually have a cycle time you can hold it down. So you have a small laser that you can only fire every 2.25 seconds. I have a MG that will fire regardless and not overheat me.

[Sifright]

Angelicon, on 06 February 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

His point was, or if i'm misstating his let's just use it as my point, is that Crit-Seeking after armor is breached is inferior to simply doing more damage all the time. I will never, ever, mount a weapon just because it crits in this manner. With more damage output i get to strip armor faster and destroy the internal structure faster. I don't give a flip about possibly maybe having a better chance of randomly getting a crit kill on a guy's medium laser. Certain damage vs situational random bonus... i'll take option 1.

No you were dead on that was my point.

Mechs are not hard to kill, two thirds of any hit location is based around armour. being able to do more damage at this stage is more important, by the time we get to internals only 1/3 of its hp remains as internals. more importantly the crit system they are suggesting wont increase our ability to kill a mech so it's just not useful.

Edited by Sifright, 06 February 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[DEN_Ninja]

Well, I am done with this issue. Just going to play the game since I can only hope that PGI is listening.

This argument is heading well into the territory of senseless insulting and flaming so I exit from it.

Which makes me wonder...Who here actually has extensively used the MG for any build even for a filler.

[FupDup]

Tichorius Davion, on 06 February 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

...
Which makes me wonder...Who here actually has extensively used the MG for any build even for a filler.

I only used MGs on my Raven 4X (they sound cool, dakka dakka dakka!) when mastering my 3L (my main mech, haters gonna hate). I'm arguing primarily on philosophy/principle here due to having played almost no mech other than the 3L.

Edited by FupDup, 06 February 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

KuruptU4Fun, on 06 February 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

A particle accelerator is a device that uses electromagnetic fields to propel charged particles to high speeds and to contain them in well-defined beams.

A photon is a charged particle correct? So weaponizing it would bring about a photon gun or phaser. The science fiction behind it coming from Star Trek..

No. A photon has no charge. A weaponized photon emitter would be a very fancy device. One could call it Laser, if you want to.

Charged particles are things like electrons and protons. Trying to accelerate them to sufficient speed that they can destroy armored objects is - maybe not futile, but kinda pointless. THere are better things and methods to accelerate things to destructive speeds. We have made good experience with using explosives (starting with gunpowder), the future may be rail guns. There are interesting prototypes in existence right now, though they still have severe issues.