166 replies to this topic

[Gammanoob]

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Why show stats for what's logically obvious to anyone with half a brain?

Hiding numbers and group compositions doesn't alleviate whining, it only provides fuel to the conspiracy theorists.

Transparency is not something to be afraid of.

Edited by Gammanoob, 06 February 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Tikkamasala]

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Premades aren't consistently put on one side, and they have a massively higher win rate...BECAUSE THEY WORK AS A TEAM IN A TEAM GAME. I mean holy ****, it's like you people don't understand that having a team in a team game makes you statistically better off than 8 random stooges. Welcome to every team game in the history of ever.

Why isn't there a game mode for the random stooges then? It's not fun for the pre-made to have them fill up the other half of your pre-made team and it's not fun for them to play with or against you.

[kalami]

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

If you want a fair game play Sorry. You will NEVER, EVER get a fair game in MWO. 8v8, hey look the other team is rolling 8 atlases, unfair! 8 lights, unfair! Different skill levels, unfair! They capped me, UNFAIR! They used ECM, UNFAIR!

It's a team game. If you aren't playing as a team it's unfair to the premade you're stuck with that you're so awful that no one wants to be your friend and play with you.

Premades aren't consistently put on one side, and they have a massively higher win rate...BECAUSE THEY WORK AS A TEAM IN A TEAM GAME. I mean holy ****, it's like you people don't understand that having a team in a team game makes you statistically better off than 8 random stooges. Welcome to every team game in the history of ever.

Why show stats for what's logically obvious to anyone with half a brain?

Not quite; premades tend to have more skilled pilots by nature and newbies that jump in on a pug team really have no chance. Hopefully ELO will address this; but its not always just down to premades work as a team; you can do the same thing without voice as a PUG although I don't even know when I have premades on my team because it's not visible.

When you see 3 men on the other side get 30 damage it's not because they don't want to work as a team it's most likely because they are new and need to learn the game. The problem is the premade on the other side basically have a 2 - 1 advantage because of the skill gap.

I just wish people who play exclusively premades would step back sometimes and try to understand from a new PUG perspective and not just **** on everyone who doesn't use voice or a clan.

[whiskey tango foxtrot]

The first rule of Lone Wolfs is.....There is no such thing as Lone Wolfs.

[Gammanoob]

kalami, on 06 February 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

I just wish people who play exclusively premades would step back sometimes and try to understand from a new PUG perspective and not just **** on everyone who doesn't use voice or a clan.

Some of them just don't care, they don't seem to understand that if a majority of the new players end up quitting because they feel they are constantly getting rolled, despite the great number of hardcore fans the game will die.

I play with a couple of chaps almost every day, but I am extremely worried about the state of the game for new people and PUGers.

Unless you are grouping up with people on TS, the game is really not very fun. (Which is a problem because the majority of players at least to begin with are not going to understand that, they will just stop playing and uninstall the game.)

Edited by Gammanoob, 06 February 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Serapth, on 06 February 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

It certainly isnt useless, it bares out if there is a problem, or it is in fact a boogieman. If it is showing premades are constantly being put on one side, you know it isnt fair. If it shows that premades have a massively higher win rate, you know it isn't fair. Hell, we already know it isn't fair, PGI said as much.

What most of us would like is to see those premades balanced across teams, as well as an indicator that this happened ( by showing premades ). Feel free to call me an **** for having the audacity of wanting a fair game.

So you will not partake of CW when it is released then right? You do know that when the Houses and Merc units begin to fight for the IS, many of those battles will be unfair...

So when unfair, in many cases, is a reality of any Team based game, what you really want is a "1v1 Shallow End of the Pool" to play in, along with all the other, "Shallow Enders?

The only way to make it fair, even with an ELO implemented, is somehow allow you to play 1v1 based on some form of ELO with built in "you suck but" mathematical deviation.

Even then, after you go on to lose 12 in a row 1v1's, the whines of "unfair" will only resurface once again because the loses you continue to suffer will never "really" have anything to do with ones own ability to play the game but always that the enemy composition was unfair.... even in a 1v1. LOL

When everyone can come to the understanding within themselves, that win or lose, it is on "YOU!" to help make it happen, or not, then the real game play can begin.

Otherwise, the 1v1 shallow pool is where many many players will have to reside... and stay there forever.

P.S. I use the term "you" in my post to describe anyone who actually expects a real 50-50 chance of winning every match, no matter what their current level of game play is.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 06 February 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[Serapth]

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

If you want a fair game play Sorry. You will NEVER, EVER get a fair game in MWO. 8v8, hey look the other team is rolling 8 atlases, unfair! 8 lights, unfair! Different skill levels, unfair! They capped me, UNFAIR! They used ECM, UNFAIR!

It's a team game. If you aren't playing as a team it's unfair to the premade you're stuck with that you're so awful that no one wants to be your friend and play with you.

Premades aren't consistently put on one side, and they have a massively higher win rate...BECAUSE THEY WORK AS A TEAM IN A TEAM GAME. I mean holy ****, it's like you people don't understand that having a team in a team game makes you statistically better off than 8 random stooges. Welcome to every team game in the history of ever.

Why show stats for what's logically obvious to anyone with half a brain?

Back in the ***** bucket you go.

Some premades win because of skill.

Many ( most? ) win because they have numerous unfair advantages. ELO will fix some of the problems, integrated C3 might fix some of the others, or at least, a text communication system that isnt complete **** might be nice.

Until then, premades really do have an i-win button, unless they run up against another premade.

[Tikkamasala]

MaddMaxx, on 06 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

P.S. I use the term "you" in my post to describe anyone who actually expects a real 50-50 chance of winning every match, no matter what their current level of game play is.

In that case you could have used no one since there is nobody who seriously expects a 0.5 chance to win for every match. Trying to get that number in the vicinity of 0.5 is what everyone should be aiming for (otherwise why are we even fighting N vs N matches; have the matchmaker fill in any number of people per side, i.e. N vs M)

[Serapth]

MaddMaxx, on 06 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

So you will not partake of CW when it is released then right? You do know that when the Houses and Merc units begin to fight for the IS, many of those battles will be unfair...

So when unfair, in many cases, is a reality of any Team based game, what you really want is a "1v1 Shallow End of the Pool" to play in, along with all the other, "Shallow Enders?

The only way to make it fair, even with an ELO implemented, is somehow allow you to play 1v1 based on some form of ELO with built in "you suck but" mathematical deviation.

Even then, after you go on to lose 12 in a row 1v1's, the whines of "unfair" will only resurface once again because the loses you continue to suffer will never "really" have anything to do with ones own ability to play the game but always that the enemy composition was unfair.... even in a 1v1. LOL

When everyone can come to the understanding within themselves, that win or lose, it is on "YOU!" to help make it happen, or not, then the real game play can begin.

Otherwise, the 1v1 shallow pool is where many many players will have to reside... and stay there forever.

P.S. I use the term "you" in my post to describe anyone who actually expects a real 50-50 chance of winning every match, no matter what their current level of game play is.

I want premades balanced across sides. I said nothing about wanting a 50-50 chance of winning, nor have I said anything about nerfing premades, ever. I have, and continue to until they fix it, stated that the matchmaker needs to balance premades and the current system is horrifically broken and boring for all parties involved.


Will I play in CW... I'll let you know in 2023 when if finally arrives. Until then, I would just like to see them balance the damned game out and make it better for everybody, well except the weaksauce pugstompers that is. They are the only ones that don't want to see real competition in the form of a balanced matchmaker.

Edited by Serapth, 06 February 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Gammanoob, on 06 February 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Hiding numbers and group compositions doesn't alleviate whining, it only provides fuel to the conspiracy theorists.

Transparency is not something to be afraid of.

And showing numbers and group compositions doesn't alleviate whining either. Look at the number of people just in this thread flaming premades. And if you're a conspiracy theorist facts don't change anything. If you truely think PGI is hiding server population numbers because no one is playing then why would you believe ones that are displayed and can be manipulated?

I showed numbers in each of my linked posts, yet people still complain about 8 ECM games every match which DOES NOT HAPPEN in the PUG environment. The numbers can be used just as much to complain about the number as hiding the number people complain about the hidden number. If you lose so much it's not the premades thats the problem, it's you. So get better or find some friends, not whine about transparency and boogyman premades (because it's just about as likely as you get the premade than not, see my numbers).

Quote

Not quite; premades tend to have more skilled pilots by nature and newbies that jump in on a pug team really have no chance. Hopefully ELO will address this; but its not always just down to premades work as a team; you can do the same thing without voice as a PUG although I don't even know when I have premades on my team because it's not visible.

When you see 3 men on the other side get 30 damage it's not because they don't want to work as a team it's most likely because they are new and need to learn the game. The problem is the premade on the other side basically have a 2 - 1 advantage because of the skill gap.

I just wish people who play exclusively premades would step back sometimes and try to understand from a new PUG perspective and not just **** on everyone who doesn't use voice or a clan.

As opposed to the people ******** on people who use voice and a clan?

And I play PUG all the time (at least 300 PUG matches of my total 1400 is just my trials for data collection). I understand find from a PUG perspective. And guess what, I STILL WIN 65% OF MY MATCHES. Because at the end of the day, player skill trumps all. And people are just looking for someone to complain about for their bad mech choices, their bad skills, and bad coordination with their team.

The only legitimate complaint ANYONE can use about why their stats are not that great is that they are using trial mechs. And since in about 4 hours you can buy an assault now, that point is steadily becoming moot.

And premades don't have more skill by default or they would win every single match that isn't against another premade, and it's just not true (I won 55% of games when my team didn't have a premade against no premades/premades).

ELO based matchmaking is the answer, not segregating/identifying premades, which solves none of these issues.

Quote

Some of them just don't care, they don't seem to understand that if a majority of the new players end up quitting because they feel they are constantly getting rolled, despite the great number of hardcore fans the game will die.

I play with a couple of chaps almost every day, but I am extremely worried about the state of the game for new people and PUGers.

Unless you are grouping up with people on TS, the game is really not very fun. (Which is a problem because the majority of players at least to begin with are not going to understand that, they will just stop playing and uninstall the game.)

If they get streamrolled all the time and are quitting because they are losing so much do you honestly think having a dot for a premade is going to make them go "oh...I was beaten by people working together and far more skilled than me, my bad, this game is awesome and getting stomped by premades is fine because it's expected". No, it's going to do nothing.

Once again, this is an ELO matchmaking problem, not a premade. And showing which players are in a premade does absolutely nothing about fixing the poor new player experience.



Let's face it and be honest, you all just want a stigma attached to premades to make them feel bad about playing with friends in a team game. You know who else liked marking people to identify them?

Edited by hammerreborn, 06 February 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[MechWarrior849305]

@OP: It's not of a much matter to see in the end, who has killed you. You may never meet him in the battle after. As You can see in the end of match, people just leave game, without even saying "GG" or "BG". So, I wouldn't say no to a sug, since it may be interesting for a man or two, but gives no difference to what we have now.

[Gammanoob]

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Let's face it and be honest, you all just want a stigma attached to premades to make them feel bad about playing with friends in a team game. You know who else liked marking people to identify them?

I play most of my games in a Premade, I just don't feel a need to hide that from the other people in a match...

I don't think anyone should feel bad about playing with their friends and I certainly don't but that doesn't mean I it needs to be hidden who is playing in a group.

Of course, perhaps subconsciously I hate myself for playing premades and am thus trying to ruin said experience for myself and the people I play with?

Also, comparing those who disagree you with to certain German group is silly. You know what other group tried to make baseless comparisons?

Edited by Gammanoob, 06 February 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[The Mecha Streisand]

Thirdstar, on 06 February 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

Agree. It would end a LOT of the tension on the forums.

Hi, and welcome to MechWarrior Online. We've clearly never met.

To the OP, I'm not opposed to your idea. I don't see it as any sort of priority, but if they have a couple spare man-hours to throw at making it happen, then sure. PGI have earned a small breather at least with this last patch.

[Kensaisama]

Pure speculation everywhere, no one has the data to either prove or disprove one way or the other, however I can say that the matchmaker does appear to be working as I have been dropped against fellow Ranger premades while being in a premade as well. So until someone can show proof positive with hard data this thread is just full of feces as is most of everyones speculations and opinions.

[hammerreborn]

Kensaisama, on 06 February 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Pure speculation everywhere, no one has the data to either prove or disprove one way or the other, however I can say that the matchmaker does appear to be working as I have been dropped against fellow Ranger premades while being in a premade as well. So until someone can show proof positive with hard data this thread is just full of feces as is most of everyones speculations and opinions.

Matchmaker doesn't pair premades against premades everytime.

[Little Nemo]

Ilwrath, on 06 February 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Its more about the devs hiding how bad the matchmaker is.

So a completely random matchmaker constitutes bad? I guess you are either admitting you are a bad player, or saying you want to be surrounded by them.

[The Mecha Streisand]

hammerreborn, on 06 February 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Matchmaker doesn't pair premades against premades everytime.

And if it's not 100% effective, then it's a cheat/hack/exploit against PUGs. Am I right? Am I right?!

[Vlad Ward]

OP is just begging for fuel to add to this fire.

Live and let live.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 06 February 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[G is for Gamma]

Gammanoob, on 06 February 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Also, comparing those who disagree you with to certain German group is silly. You know what other group tried to make baseless comparisons?

The Girlscouts? Amiright? Or clanners? Is it clanners?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Gammanoob, on 06 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Some of them just don't care, they don't seem to understand that if a majority of the new players end up quitting because they feel they are constantly getting rolled, despite the great number of hardcore fans the game will die.

I play with a couple of chaps almost every day, but I am extremely worried about the state of the game for new people and PUGers.

Unless you are grouping up with people on TS, the game is really not very fun. (Which is a problem because the majority of players at least to begin with are not going to understand that, they will just stop playing and uninstall the game.)

Good post, this has been my view for a while as well, which some how always gets twisted towards me hating ECM or hating pre-mades or whatever.

All I'm worried about is this simple thing "Will this game last and make enough of a profit to facilitate developers wanting to make future mechwarrior games". And right now the new user experience/solo player experience is so bad that I only see people who are big fans of the IP (myself) sticking around.

And I've done the group thing, I even joined up with someone I was debating with on the boards (Kell Commander, good guy) to shoot people. It's not an "iWin" button, but I still feel things need to be adjusted for the health of the game long-term.