440 replies to this topic

[valkyrie]

Like a Sir, on 06 February 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

It does demonstrate that if you stand very still, while a catapult with the open flaps walks towards you, and shoot your terrible load out at anything but it's face that is already stripped of armor, you will die a painful death rather well... I would recommend it for the training videos...

What else was he going to do? Turn around and run away...while I bear down on him at 80KPH with my XL300 and one shot him from behind rather than kill him in two?

[Norris J Packard]

Like a Sir, on 06 February 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

It does demonstrate that if you stand very still, while a catapult with the open flaps walks towards you, and shoot your terrible load out at anything but it's face that is already stripped of armor, you will die a painful death rather well... I would recommend it for the training videos...

Let's imagine another scenario. Shall we?

Okay, so Valk JJ's over the hill (like he does in the video) and immediately kills that Catapult. He literally does, like the guy just dies before any human being could possibly react.

Now you're the Centurion. You've got your back to a hill and an A1 has just appeared out of nowhere, you're standing still because you were before. But suddenly there's Mech that moves 80 KPH running at you, as fast you can go in your Cent (judging from his loadout), and he's about to finish reloading his SRM's.

Do you:

A. Run to to the left or right so he can turn his torso without slowing down and one shot you.

B. Stand still and get one shotted.

C. Try and walk backwards and get one shotted.

The clock is ticking.

Edited by Norris J Packard, 06 February 2013 - 11:23 PM.

[Critical Fumble]

Norris J Packard, on 06 February 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

BALANCED!

WOO-HA!

Also, case in point - see this new guide:

Spoiler

http://mwomercs.com/...83#entry1854983

Notice torso boxes on the Cataphract, then compare to the Catapult.

Now, taking the Catapult down a notch or two might help in the short run, but what do we do when a different perfect storm comes along? Its more effective in the long run to fix the underlying issues - pinpoint alpha strikes, give SRMs spread right out of the tube but less than current downrange, better in-game coms, et cetera.

[Like a Sir]

Norris J Packard, on 06 February 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Let's imagine another scenario. Shall we?

Okay, so Valk JJ's over the hill (like he does in the video) and immediately kills that Catapult. He literally does, like the guy just dies before any human being could possibly react.

Now you're the Centurion. You've got your back to a hill and an A1 has just appeared out of nowhere, you're standing still because you were before. But suddenly there's Mech that moves 80 KPH running at you, as fast you can go in your Cent (judging from his loadout), and he's about to finish reloading his SRM's.

Do you:

A. Run to to the left or right so he can turn his torso without slowing down and one shot you.

B. Stand still and get one shotted.

C. Try and walk backwards and get one shotted.

The clock is ticking.

Hit R. Torso twist and give up the shield arm to his salvo, see his damage. He will come to a stop because he just plowed in to you. Torso twist back. Cockpit

[LaserAngel]

Like a Sir, on 06 February 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

It does demonstrate that if you stand very still, while a catapult with the open flaps walks towards you, and shoot your terrible load out at anything but it's face that is already stripped of armor, you will die a painful death rather well... I would recommend it for the training videos...

In the video the head goes from yellow to orange. It's rather hard to see from the GIF. That Centurion went from 99% to 38% in an instant.

[Like a Sir]

I do hate theorycraft though...

[Norris J Packard]

Like a Sir, on 06 February 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

Hit R. Torso twist and give up the shield arm to his salvo, see his damage. He will come to a stop because he just plowed in to you. Torso twist back. Cockpit

Why would he come to a stop? He can simply wait till his SRM's reload and then turn to look at you. The fact that you think the Catapult would stop moving is absurd.

[Brilig]

A lot of good points on both sides. Like most of you I have to agree that most Catapult builds are only really OP if you are playing to their strengths.

I also still see some pretty legitimate concerns over the Catapult being able to pull of the role off assault brawler a little too easily.

Torso twist reduction, and a tweak to SRM's really may be in order. There are a ton of things that could be done to SRMs to make them less OP when boated in a major fashion. Damage reduction, or increased spread. Maybe increasing the distance between each group of SRM being fired from a single location. Instead of an 18 missile blob, have three distinct group of 6 SRMs.

[valkyrie]

Like a Sir, on 06 February 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

Hit R. Torso twist and give up the shield arm to his salvo, see his damage. He will come to a stop because he just plowed in to you. Torso twist back. Cockpit

Ha ha, no. What would've happened is I'd collide with him and then phase through him like most colliding mechs, then I'd hit the jets, do an owltwist, and get the same results as before.

Oh, and the 90 damage salvo at point blank would probably rip off the LT and arm anyway. Thanks for playing!

[Norris J Packard]

valkyrie, on 06 February 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Ha ha, no. What would've happened is I'd collide with him and then phase through him like most colliding mechs, then I'd hit the jets, do an owltwist, and get the same results as before.

Oh, and the 90 damage salvo at point blank would probably rip off the LT and arm anyway. Thanks for playing!

If not killed him outright.

[Johnny Reb]

Its has been here since the Cat (not Cata, make ppl confused with the Cataprahct) existed, seen this qq on it since July! Nothing then and nothing now deal with it!

[Like a Sir]

Norris J Packard, on 06 February 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Why would he come to a stop? He can simply wait till his SRM's reload and then turn to look at you. The fact that you think the Catapult would stop moving is absurd.

.... You don't just run straight through the mechs that are alive, not until the collisions are back. If cent saw Valk coming at him and twisted to sacrifice his arm to the salvo, Valk would have come to a stop from running in to the cent. The cent could then turn back and get the cockpit at point blank before the srms came off the cooldown. I thought that was clear...

Either way, I do have to go finish up some work, and I think we just have to agree that we won't come to a middle ground on this. I am looking forward to seeing you gentlemen in the game, cats and all. Have a good night.

[Eddrick]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 February 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

It seems especially weird considering that they gave the Stalker right out of the gate a heavily nerfed torso twist capability. What's so special about the Catapult that it deserves such a twist capability?

No idea. If anything it should be the other way around. Stalker needs it more then the Catapult does.

I would be content with a little less. No less then 140 for the K2 sounds ok to me. That's what it starts with and even that worked fine. But, the 90 the Stalker gets is realy bad. Something that slow needs to be able to twist farther. I genuinly tried the Stalker. But, the twist range made it unbearable.

Edited by Eddrick, 06 February 2013 - 11:36 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Brilig, on 06 February 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

A lot of good points on both sides. Like most of you I have to agree that most Catapult builds are only really OP if you are playing to their strengths.

I also still see some pretty legitimate concerns over the Catapult being able to pull of the role off assault brawler a little too easily.

Torso twist reduction, and a tweak to SRM's really may be in order. There are a ton of things that could be done to SRMs to make them less OP when boated in a major fashion. Damage reduction, or increased spread. Maybe increasing the distance between each group of SRM being fired from a single location. Instead of an 18 missile blob, have three distinct group of 6 SRMs.

No ****, you play to your build's strengths!? What a tactical genius you are. DHB confirmed for best gold drop in the game!

Oh, wait. You're terrible, and you don't know how to argue.

I've been driving boomcats since before you even knew you could do this. You probably didn't even know jets let you turn 180 in no time at all in the air until it was said in this thread.

The problem isn't SRMs. SRMs are fine. They're good for their intended purpose. Catapults are the problem, because you can DBZ control yourself in the air, and aim everywhere.

[Norris J Packard]

Like a Sir, on 06 February 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

.... You don't just run straight through the mechs that are alive, not until the collisions are back. If cent saw Valk coming at him and twisted to sacrifice his arm to the salvo, Valk would have come to a stop from running in to the cent. The cent could then turn back and get the cockpit at point blank before the srms came off the cooldown. I thought that was clear...

Either way, I do have to go finish up some work, and I think we just have to agree that we won't come to a middle ground on this. I am looking forward to seeing you gentlemen in the game, cats and all. Have a good night.

Yes you do. I run straight through him because there's no detection. And even if collisions were back in, Valk would have knocked the Cent down and then would have blasted him with the SRM's. I'm sorry, but you have no ground to try and refute the scenario that just played out.

[valkyrie]

Johnny Reb, on 06 February 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

Its has been here since the Cat (not Cata, make ppl confused with the Cataprahct) existed, seen this qq on it since July! Nothing then and nothing now deal with it!

And in that time we've seen tweaks to heat, armor, gauss rifles, MISSILE, lasers...everything except the Catapult itself, but the Catapult remains at the top of the food chain.

Narrows the problem down a lot, doesn't it?

[Solis Obscuri]

LaserAngel, on 06 February 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

That Centurion went from 99% to 38% in an instant.

Well, he did just have 3 tons of torso armor/structure vaporized in one shot...

It's interesting when you think about it, SRMs have identical damage potential to TT in MWO - on TT an SRM-6 could do up to twelve damage, but the average cluster hit roll would be four missiles, or 8 damage. So two SRM-6s would disintegrate a ton of armor if they both hit with an average roll. In MWO, armor values are doubled, and in close it's possible to hit with all six missiles in a pack for 15 damage each - meaning two SRM-6s still strip off nearly a ton of armor on a point-blank shot. Everything else that is roughly half as effective as on TT due to double armor (though obviously most of us are better shots than any dice-roll pilot on TT.)

[Adrienne Vorton]

k2? really? again? #1 no, #2 no,#3 no

or if yes, nerf all mechs that are able to deal more than 30 alpha damage... oh wait, 30 is too dangerous, lets say 24...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 06 February 2013 - 11:39 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Eddrick, on 06 February 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

 But, the 90 the Stalker gets is realy bad.  Something that slow needs to be able to twist farther.  I genuinly tried the Stalker.  But, the twist range made it unbearable.

The Stalker is a when-you're-going-through-hell-keep-going juggernaut of a platform. If you're in a crazy brawl, sometimes you just have to try and plow through a few opponents with as much damage as possible and hope your team is following you.

[Johnny Reb]

valkyrie, on 06 February 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

And in that time we've seen tweaks to heat, armor, gauss rifles, MISSILE, lasers...everything except the Catapult itself, but the Catapult remains at the top of the food chain.

Narrows the problem down a lot, doesn't it?

Heh, and the Cat has suffered through that all. Top of the food chain? I just got my k2 to master ans really hated it, so slow, yet has a a great kill kill shot. That said, so many better/faster mechs that will eat it? So not so much on the top of the food chain. Just a dangerous predator and easy prey for some! Or death incarnate or the unwary!