440 replies to this topic

[Critical Fumble]

valkyrie, on 06 February 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

Don't worry guys, it's totally balanced. They should've just shot the ears!
*immage*
Oh wait, they COULDN'T because I was dropping 90 damage alpha strikes in their faces and removing half their weaponry before they could even dent me. In the off chance that they could or they got behind me, I just jumpjetted behind cover or did a jumpjet spin with owlvision and continued on my merry way. I was getting scores like this all night. You can't possibly tell me this is balanced.

Given the shape of the Catapult, you'd thing that trying to point-blank alpha would cause most of the volley to miss around the target, if not partially land on the Cat's nose.

[Alymbic]

Norris J Packard, on 06 February 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

The people who are railing against changes to the K2 and A1 are literally the worst sort of gamer.

They're not min-maxers, they're not power-players, they're babby's who are afraid of their I WIN button being taken away from them.

I voted no in the poll, and I havent used a catapult more than 2 or three times since open beta. As far as I'm concerned, they are what they are, and to remove what they do now after this much time would just feel... wrong.

The gauss and ac20 kitties dont really worry me anymore, I can take them more than I lose to them. The SRM A1's though are the only thing in the game I really dont like sneaking up on me. If you can de-ear them before they close on you its all well and good, even if you can blow one ear off is great, but if the close on my cent or Atlas when im not looking, then I'm in for a nasty surprise. Normally I try to keep better situational awareness in order to avoid such encounters, but that can be tricky in a urban environment or a multi-man brawl.

-Edited for clarity

Edited by Alymbic, 06 February 2013 - 10:10 PM.

[Norris J Packard]

Alymbic, on 06 February 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

I voted no in the poll, and I havent used a catapult more than 2 or three times since open beta. As far as I'm concerned, they are what they are, and to remove them now after this much time would just feel... wrong.

The gauss and ac20 kitties dont really worry me anymore, I can take them more than I lose to them. The SRM A1's though are the only thing in the game I really dont like sneaking up on me. If you can de-ear them before they close on you its all well and good, even if you can blow one ear off is great, but if the close on my cent or Atlas when im not looking, then I'm in for a nasty surprise. Normally I try to keep better situational awareness in order to avoid such encounters, but that can be tricky in a urban environment or a multi-man brawl.

I am not suggesting removing either the K2 or the A1, but modify them (without touching the hardpoints) to bring them in line.

It is staggeringly easy to do.

[GalaxyBluestar]

valkyrie, on 06 February 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

Don't worry guys, it's totally balanced. They should've just shot the ears!

Oh wait, they COULDN'T because I was dropping 90 damage alpha strikes in their faces and removing half their weaponry before they could even dent me. In the off chance that they could or they got behind me, I just jumpjetted behind cover or did a jumpjet spin with owlvision and continued on my merry way. I was getting scores like this all night. You can't possibly tell me this is balanced.

argued that point for a long time hence my stalker 5 lrg laser alpha strike being built specifically to get those boxes off before the inevitable i win button is pressed.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 06 February 2013 - 09:37 PM.

[Stingz]

Alymbic, on 06 February 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

I voted no in the poll, and I havent used a catapult more than 2 or three times since open beta. As far as I'm concerned, they are what they are, and to remove them now after this much time would just feel... wrong.

Since it's beta, now is the time to try out Catapults (specifically SRM-A1, and AC-K2). An XL/STD 300 is suggested, to make full use of the insane 140 twist range.

[Bishop Steiner]

K-2 Model should look like THIS


So that the actual silhouette looks right.

TBH, AC/20 or Gauss boating em is really not as big a deal as the new people think, since you make MAJOR sacrifices to achieve it. The AC/20 cat is a monster up close.... but toast at a distance. See it 500+ meters out, the trial K2 can toast it before it can even use those big guns.
If they ambush you in an alley, then you are usually screwed.. and that means the "AlleyCat" model did what it is meant to... to MUG other unsuspecting mechs.

The Gauss-A-Pult might be more useful in the wide open, but the Gauss are fragile (not uncommon for me to get one or both blasted, which can toast my XL) and take some time to recycle.

Both tend to have limited ammunition endurance, and are usually relatively slow. They are specialty mechs that when allowed to do their jobs, are great tools. But if taken out of their "comfort zones" both are very easy to counter.


The A1- series, on the other hand, quite simply has too many missile hardpoints. They do have their own limitations (like no energy weapons) but be it the old 6x LRM5 Shake-A-Pult that used to rock your mech too bad to aim with chain fired LRM5s, or a Streak-A-Pult with their unerring CT seeking missiles, or the crude, but effective "Splat-A-Pults" racking 6x SRM6, they tend to be a little more than the sum of their parts.

the LRM5 and Streak Models have been at least partially addressed by minimizing missile impact shake. The SplatCat, is death on legs under 200 meters, but beyond that is largely a joke. Also it runs hot, and again doesn't have much endurance.

I would like to see something done to reign in boating, but it also has to be within reason. Very few of these designs are "broke" in the sense ECM/Streak combos are, wherre they dictate the entire game. All can be countered with other mech designs, good tactics and peripheral awareness.

I really guess I am tired of the whole "this mech is killing me, so it has to be broken/or use an aimbot/ insert QQ here" nonsense.

Most of the issues, be it "broken" designs, pug stomping or such are a product of people not wanting an actual challenge, and/or the lone wolf "i don't want to work as a team" mentality, IMO.

[Butane9000]

Catapult's are fine. The min-max builds like the Dual AC20 and Gauss K2 and "splatter cats" are easily countered by competent piloting. They also suffer from their own weaknesses. I never say "darn, I died to a cheap build" I say "man, I made a mistake there".

[Vassago Rain]

[valkyrie]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

K-2 Model should look like THIS

So that the actual silhouette looks right.

TBH, AC/20 or Gauss boating em is really not as big a deal as the new people think, since you make MAJOR sacrifices to achieve it. The AC/20 cat is a monster up close.... but toast at a distance. See it 500+ meters out, the trial K2 can toast it before it can even use those big guns.
If they ambush you in an alley, then you are usually screwed.. and that means the "AlleyCat" model did what it is meant to... to MUG other unsuspecting mechs.

The Gauss-A-Pult might be more useful in the wide open, but the Gauss are fragile (not uncommon for me to get one or both blasted, which can toast my XL) and take some time to recycle.

Both tend to have limited ammunition endurance, and are usually relatively slow. They are specialty mechs that when allowed to do their jobs, are great tools. But if taken out of their "comfort zones" both are very easy to counter.


The A1- series, on the other hand, quite simply has too many missile hardpoints. They do have their own limitations (like no energy weapons) but be it the old 6x LRM5 Shake-A-Pult that used to rock your mech too bad to aim with chain fired LRM5s, or a Streak-A-Pult with their unerring CT seeking missiles, or the crude, but effective "Splat-A-Pults" racking 6x SRM6, they tend to be a little more than the sum of their parts.

the LRM5 and Streak Models have been at least partially addressed by minimizing missile impact shake. The SplatCat, is death on legs under 200 meters, but beyond that is largely a joke. Also it runs hot, and again doesn't have much endurance.

I would like to see something done to reign in boating, but it also has to be within reason. Very few of these designs are "broke" in the sense ECM/Streak combos are, wherre they dictate the entire game. All can be countered with other mech designs, good tactics and peripheral awareness.

I really guess I am tired of the whole "this mech is killing me, so it has to be broken/or use an aimbot/ insert QQ here" nonsense.

Most of the issues, be it "broken" designs, pug stomping or such are a product of people not wanting an actual challenge, and/or the lone wolf "i don't want to work as a team" mentality, IMO.

The fact that every single one of the "OP" builds throughout this game's lifespan have ALL been Catapult chassis should be a clue that yeah, maybe there IS something unbalanced about them.

[Teralitha]

I said no to all 3 and disagree with every suggested nerf to catapults ever made. And I dont even own a single catapult varient and have no intention of ever buying one.

They have glaring weaknesses easy to exploit for any experienced mechwarrior. And that is the primary reason I do not use a catapult.

The game has been dumbed down enough already. No need to dumb it down any further or it wont take any skill whatsoever to play this game. It barely takes any skill to play it now.....

Edited by Teralitha, 06 February 2013 - 09:58 PM.

[Damocles]

don't find it OP.

[Bishop Steiner]

valkyrie, on 06 February 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

The fact that every single one of the "OP" builds throughout this game's lifespan have ALL been Catapult chassis should be a clue that yeah, maybe there IS something unbalanced about them.

Hmmmm... so the 6 PPC Stalkers aren't OP boats (or the 5 Streak 5 medium pulse, 5 SRM rack or 5 LRM rack versions?)? Or the MultiPPC/Multi MediumPUlse Laser Awesomes? Or the Death of a thousand PaperCuts Hunchback-Ps? The 3-4 UAc5 DakkaPhracts? The 3 ALRM15+TAG+ECM DDC Atlas?

The ONLY commonality? Boating. Not weapon. Not Chassis.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

*snip*

would agree if the majority of maps weren't so tight, sticking with you're team you are constantly stuck in valleys or weaving between buildings, so targets rarely show up on radar until they are within 2 seconds to closing into range on you and or suddenly spring on you anyways. it's easy to close in on a mech but it's much harder to tactically avoid being smothered. that's what gives these cata's and other close range brawlers an noticable edge.

i agree though that the 6 ppc stalker is lolol territory but everything else you suggested is actually close to cannon configs and NO ONE EVER has complained about them, in fact the awesomes have been well considered weaker cause they can't minmax closerange weapons {energy weapons favor longer ranges and heat isn't good for brawling} so mostly i have to disagree with you.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 06 February 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

GalaxyBluestar, on 06 February 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

would agree if the majority of maps weren't so tight, sticking with you're team you are constantly stuck in valleys or weaving between buildings, so targets rarely show up on radar until they are within 2 seconds to closing into range on you and or suddenly spring on you anyways. it's easy to close in on a mech but it's much harder to tactically avoid being smothered.

I might point out that is kinda what the role of scouts is supposed to help with... if they report "enemy units" in upper city.. the problem is, instead of approaching with caution, I see the whole blob of mechs stumble over each other to face hug the OpFor.

Then when the round the corner into dual AC/20 or Hex-SRM6 racks, they hit the brakes, get tangled on each other trying to "RUN AWAY" and get killed like fish in a barrel.

I sometimes get mugged by those designs but not nearly enough to get upset. Maybe the bigger issue is that we need to put the role back into role warfare instead of the blanket assumption (not yours, just the forums at large, it seems) that role warfare is some mythical camelot that will only matter in CW.

As others have noted, there are plenty of glaring shortcomings to ALL of the above designs. Exploit them when you can, and just like any well designed tool, die to them when they get you where they want you. That 50 BMG sniper rifle seems OP until some dude with a suppressed MP5 sneaks into CQB and puts 2 into your head. Likewise a Pancor Jackhammer full auto Shottie might be the ultimate streetsweeper, but its balls useless at 100 yards. So the guy with a simple bolt action rifle guns him down.

Tactics vs Tech, the story of warfare my friend.

[Alymbic]

Norris J Packard, on 06 February 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I am not suggesting removing either the K2 or the A1, but modify them (without touching the hardpoints) to bring them in line.
It is staggeringly easy to do.

Yes, my post was poorly worded at that point. I should have said "remove what they do now would feel wrong". In the past I had suggested various changes, but I have grown so used to them now they are pretty normal, everyday builds.

Stingz, on 06 February 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Since it's beta, now is the time to try out Catapults (specifically SRM-A1, and AC-K2). An XL/STD 300 is suggested, to make full use of the insane 140 twist range.

Been there, done that. Have both builds amongst the many in my mechlab, played them a few times, got bored with them. They dont really reflect my playstyle at all. Just because a build may be OP doesnt mean you should play them if you dont want to.

I wonder how those builds will fare in the Alpine Peaks. Should be interesting, however I have a feeling it may just cause some of the ac20 cat's to switch to gauss rifles to counter the chances of dropping there.

[valkyrie]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

Hmmmm... so the 6 PPC Stalkers aren't OP boats (or the 5 Streak 5 medium pulse, 5 SRM rack or 5 LRM rack versions?)? Or the MultiPPC/Multi MediumPUlse Laser Awesomes? Or the Death of a thousand PaperCuts Hunchback-Ps? The 3-4 UAc5 DakkaPhracts? The 3 ALRM15+TAG+ECM DDC Atlas?

The ONLY commonality? Boating. Not weapon. Not Chassis.

Nope, nope, nope, and nope. Stalkers are slow and have awful torso twist, meaning when you get right on them it's easy to outmaneuver them (and you usually do since the maps are typically claustrophobic). Awesomes and Dakkaphracts are also exceptionally slow and have massive side torsos to pop if they're fast thanks to an XL. Hunchback -Ps have something like 80% of their firepower in ONE location - not two like the Catapults. And the ALRM Atlas? Same thing as the PPC Stalker, with the added bonus of being completely useless within 150m or if countered by ECM up close.

Catapults? Armor of a Heavy, firepower of an assault, speed of a medium, highest torso twist in the game. No downsides. Something's got to change.

[Parnage Winters]

This thread is going places. In circles mostly from the looks of it.

I have this funny feeling my c1 custom is going to get hozed because of these shenanigans. Not that it'll stop me. I love my catapult it's introduction assured I'd be playing this game. Then again I really dislike the A1 and wish I had purchased a C4 over it. Sure I can do crazy stupid builds with the a1 but it's lack of fallback weapons ticks me off to no end. Also yeah pretty much everyone goes for the ears.

Eh torso twist reductions on catapults will kinda ruin my c1's ability to retreat while firing lrms at an advancing target as I move down at an angle away from them. In short I'ma get boned by this change. I mean if I can deal with my min range while falling back and hold lock I should be rewarded? I dunno..this "problem" seems like it'll backfire on the other variants easily. I mean when was the last time anyone said "I want a C4!"

[Bishop Steiner]

valkyrie, on 06 February 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

Nope, nope, nope, and nope. Stalkers are slow and have awful torso twist, meaning when you get right on them it's easy to outmaneuver them (and you usually do since the maps are typically claustrophobic). Awesomes and Dakkaphracts are also exceptionally slow and have massive side torsos to pop if they're fast thanks to an XL. Hunchback -Ps have something like 80% of their firepower in ONE location - not two like the Catapults. And the ALRM Atlas? Same thing as the PPC Stalker, with the added bonus of being completely useless within 150m or if countered by ECM up close.

Catapults? Armor of a Heavy, firepower of an assault, speed of a medium, highest torso twist in the game. No downsides. Something's got to change.

wrong wrong and wrong. To run the dual AC/20 or Gauss builds, you can't realistically top 64 kph. And that's IF you want to have a nice easy to pop XL engine.

The multi SRM units can indeed go faster, but if you are foolish enough to let a mech with a max effective range of 150-200 meters get close enough to maul you, you deserve to be killed anyhow. They are great for ambush, or for people who panic.

In the open field, nice focused fire mows em down before they get close, and even if one or 2 get there, then they are scrapping with a whole lance or more.

Sorry if I ain't afraid of the dark or need PGI to hold my hand. I've run as many matches as anyone, and have yet to remotely consider them more than a nuisance. And I don't even run any aside from the Gauss-A-Pult. (which is generally speaking SCREWED if a couple of lights single me out)

[Brilig]

Honestly I don't have much of a problem with any of the "OP" Catapult builds. They have their weaknesses to go along with their strengths. Gauss being really fragile, SRMs being very short range. AC-20 is probably the worst, even beyond 270 meters they can hurt a lot. If they hit you.

They do become really dangerous when they are used in coordinated 8 man drops. They make excellent flankers. I have not run into too many teams that use them really well. The ones that do are very tough to beat. Don't think I've run into more than 1 or 2 at a time in PUG drops.

When you get right down to it they do seem to perform well above their tonnage. Gauss Cat is doing what the Awesome 8Q is designed to do for 15 less tons. SRM Cat has a close range alpha that is higher than most assaults. AC-20 Cat is up there too with 40 pinpoint damage. Gauss Cat can be mean. It is so fragile it really needs a good pilot, and team support.

Restricting torso twist is not a bad idea. Could defiantly make them less powerful in a brawl.

You could set something up where stacking multiple SRMs in the same section make for a bigger spread. Make all three SRMs launch in slightly more distinct groups instead of one 18 missile blob.

Not sure what could be done for the duel AC-20 K-2. Maybe a torso twist nerf would be enough.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

I might point out that is kinda what the role of scouts is supposed to help with... if they report "enemy units" in upper city.. the problem is, instead of approaching with caution, I see the whole blob of mechs stumble over each other to face hug the OpFor.

etc etc

yes very true but alas if your premade has no scouts and/or you play pugs with many of them not knowing how to scout, you're in for a rough ride.

and i still disagree about your list of OP as i've only heard or experienced one of these builds giving everyone a headache and someone's already correcting you so there you are.

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

In the open field, nice focused fire mows em down before they get close, and even if one or 2 get there, then they are scrapping with a whole lance or more.

would also like to point out that focus fire should NEVER be counted towards balancing designs you can say focus fire is a counter to everything so it's not valid.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 06 February 2013 - 10:18 PM.