440 replies to this topic

[HiplyRustic]

QuantumButler, on 07 February 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

didn't you see?

Someone tried to shoot his ears off in the video, twice, it didn't work, because he vaporaized them before they did more than 20 points of damage.

You try shooting off 60HP ears when you take 90 damage per alpha from the catapult, who might even be flying and shooting missiles straight down onto your head, see how "easy" it is.

I'll be happy to. My Ilya doesn't die to these things...and no other medium+ range mech should either. I assure you that I will see his 90 alpha and raise him three UAC5s being shot with reasonable accuracy while on the move. The damn things don't fly, they jump...for less than 4 seconds.

How badly do you fail at situational awareness? These things are like LRM boats pre-ECM...not overpowered, just Darwin's hammers. Yes, if you are stupid enough to stand still and take those 90 alphas you will die.

I have news for you, in that case...you should die.

[Sifright]

HiplyRustic, on 07 February 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I'll be happy to. My Ilya doesn't die to these things...and no other medium+ range mech should either. I assure you that I will see his 90 alpha and raise him three UAC5s being shot with reasonable accuracy while on the move. The damn things don't fly, they jump...for less than 4 seconds.

How badly do you fail at situational awareness? These things are like LRM boats pre-ECM...not overpowered, just Darwin's hammers. Yes, if you are stupid enough to stand still and take those 90 alphas you will die.

I have news for you, in that case...you should die.

I move at 90kph, just try and stay away from me on a map like river or frozen where I can use the excessive cover to keep you from getting a bead on me until i decide you are dead.

Plenty of you so called "Oh i'll just keep away " players fall under my missile launchers ever day.

[Tyrask Hazen]

HiplyRustic, on 07 February 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I'll be happy to. My Ilya doesn't die to these things...and no other medium+ range mech should either. I assure you that I will see his 90 alpha and raise him three UAC5s being shot with reasonable accuracy while on the move. The damn things don't fly, they jump...for less than 4 seconds.

How badly do you fail at situational awareness? These things are like LRM boats pre-ECM...not overpowered, just Darwin's hammers. Yes, if you are stupid enough to stand still and take those 90 alphas you will die.

I have news for you, in that case...you should die.

AH EMN!

[Kharim]

3 times no. This mechs are not that good to nerf them. It is easy to kill them from distance. Fyi: I do not own any catapult.

[QuantumButler]

Kharim, on 07 February 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

3 times no. This mechs are not that good to nerf them. It is easy to kill them from distance. Fyi: I do not own any catapult.

Which explains why you have no idea what you're talking about.

The fact that you claim to be able to kill A1 steaksauce cats easily from range [a laughable claim] is irellevant even if it's true.

Something doesn't have to be literally impossible to kill at all to be overpowered, the fact that you can kill A1 cats if 3 or more mechs focus fire on them or they overheat like idiots doesn't mean they're not OP, if you go by that definition then nothing short of a literally invulnerable mech is "OP".

[M4rtyr]

Just want to reply to a number of things I've seen said in this thread, not all are directly related to Cats.

First, the most obvious stupid comment.. Jumpjets should be able to turn 180 in the air... Why? that is half the point behind the very existence of JJ's easy facing changes. The other reason for having JJ's is largely lost in MWO. There is no speed drop off from any form or terrain in MWO just obsticles like buildings. The JJ's can help you go over some of the smaller impassible terrain but other then that they completely lose their advantage of moving full speed over difficult terrain. So if you take away the midair turning then JJ's are useless in MWO. So thats not a smart balance for Cats.

I don't see a big problem with the K2 at all. The A1, well yeah a full 6 SRM6s to the face hurt, but thats not the Cats fault. My two problems with this build are all but one map are PERFECT for that sort of build, so the moronic counter of just stay away from them is exactly that, moronic. But also, as I've said many times before, there is no reason for the missile damage increase. Make more open maps and bring the missile damage back down and then that build will be FAR more balanced.

Focus fire is not a balance mechanic it's simply good team work so that doesn't figure into ANYTHING balance related.

Claiming shooting the ears off is a counter is stupid. unless you have a enemy that doesn't move at all then the most likely thing you are going to hit most times will be the ears regardless of what you want to hit, they are the biggest hitbox on the damn things. Now with that in mind then obviously shooting the ears off doesn't do any good, because again thanks to the maps they can take off an arm in one shot you have to take a few shots.

Bottom line, there is a balance issue, I think maybe lowering the twist range might be helpful but not the main thing. As I've said the maps give good brawler builds a massive advantage and the A1 just happens to be the best brawler build.Bring the missile damages back down and then you also have a heavy that doesn't alpha as hard as assaults. Maybe the side torso hitbox could be slightly wider from the front and rear but thats debateable.

Edited by M4rtyr, 07 February 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[Abivard]

The only time I fear an a1 cat is when I turn a corner and find one 50 M away, even then it doesn't take many shots to take the ears off.
I think the A1 is a bad variant, don't like them on my team, Like to take their ears and let someone else kill them when I see them on the other side.

this is a case of L2P being appropriate. don't let them sneak up on you, don't get caught alone and stop QQ'n

[Ialti]

Wow, has this thread turned into a moanfest since the last time I looked at it or what?

Just a quick point though:

-There are plenty of less-than-stellar players in A1's.
-There are plenty of less-than-stellar players trying to kill A1's.

We can argue to infinity on this topic, but ultimately the balance is never going to be 'right,' because some people will always have an easy time killing other people. That's what makes this a competitive game and not, say, a puzzle.

I drive an A1 streakboat, and sometimes bump into splatapaults on the other team. The new jump jets and my speed tweak let me out-maneuver my heavier-hitting cousin seven times out of ten. Are you honestly going to tell me it's more of an OP chassis issue and not dependent on pilot skill?

[Norris J Packard]

Why is this thread still open?

[MustrumRidcully]

Just kill the ears....

Internal Structure on Arms: 20
Internal Structure on Center Torso: 42
Max Armour on Arms: 40
Max Armour on Center Torso: 84 (realistically split into something like 64/20 maybe? Vassago may use even less)

Total Damage needed to kill one Arm: 62
Total Damage needed to kill CT: 104

If you deal x damage per second on average, you need 62/x seconds to kill one arm, 124/x seconds to kill both arms, 104/x to CT.
The 6 SRM6 Cat deals about 22.5 damage per second. If you "disarm" it on one side, it's down to 11.25 damage per second.
So if you go for the arms, you will take 62/x * 22.5 + 62/x * 11.25 damage. = 2092/x damage.
If you go for the center torso, you will take 104/x * 22.5 = 2.340 damage.
Let's say you have a mech with 8 Medium Lasers. That gives you a theoretical max DPS of 10. That would mean you'd take 209 damage if you go for the arms, or 234 damage if you go for the center torso. *

Let's say you're a perfect shot, but the SRM6s miss 50 % of the time (or spread their damage in an unfortunate manner). That would mean you'd take 104 or 117 damage. (Both damage values incidentally would be high enough to kill a mech armored like the Splatapult)

2 Observations:
1) If you're alone against the Splatapult, you probably need to be really good to take it out before it takes out you.
2) If you're in a group, how good do you think your team is at coordinating its fire on the ear? If you can do it perfectly, going for the ears sounds best. But if only about 15 % of your team's damage is initially directed at the wrong ear - e.g 85 % shoot left, 15 % shoot right, you may have been better off if all agreed to shoot the center torso - there is only one of those.


*) Actually, it's all even more complicated.
The damage per second over a 10 second time frame is not the same as the theoretical DPS over an infinite time interval.
For example, a Gauss Rifle can fire 3 times in a 10 second time interval. Once at 0 seconds, a second time at 4 seconds, and a third at 8 seconds. That gives it a damage output of 45 over 10 seconds, which would suggest an average damage per second of 4.5. The "infinite time span" damage of the Gauss is only 3.75. The longer the time interval we discuss, the closer we get to that theoretical DPS.
So my above math might not work out quite like that. And you can also imagin that it will make a signiicant difference whether you kill the Catapults ear shortly before another salvo, or shortly after a salvo, so that even a small rise in damage output might affect the outcome considerably. But I don't feel like describing all that in detail right now. A slightly better approximation could be that we set a time limit and calculat ehow much damage both sides can deal in that time..

[Corvus Antaka]

I just "Again" bought a K2 Gausspult.

Massively OP. Running this mech effectively doubles my KDR per match.

But hey, its been this way for 6 months, and if PGI wont fix it, I'll just keep abusing it.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Vassago Rain, on 07 February 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

Now all the former A1s drop into their K2s instead, or if lasers are the thing, they go into the C1, with SRMs to bust your internals.

i always here this argument in this thread... how is the C1 or the K2 the same threat as an SRM boat? C1 = 2 heavy energy,2 small energy and 2 missles... i think there is at least 1mech out there that can beat that easily... plus the relatively weak chassis that any catapult is...the k2? well, it can either be a ballistics mech (with 2! ballistics, wow! OP) OR 4 heavy energy at MOST, which tends to be a very very hot build... believe me when i say, building a 4 heavy energy + 2 ballistics is a really bad idea with a k2... the catapult IS a good multirole chassis, yes... it has some options, yes... but in none of them it´s more dangerous than those who specialize in that role...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 08 February 2013 - 01:00 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Norris J Packard, on 07 February 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

Why is this thread still open?

don't know the results are in so it should be over but if the mods leave it alone then it's a free forum.

i don't understand it either.

[Cybermech]

dear god guys, think about what your complaining about...
is it your situational awareness???

no its the OP srm6 A1, with its 180m and less range, 50-80m to get a good shot.
I can see how this is way too much range.
There is no way you could strip off its arms before it got close.


is the problem you have to think while your hiding in your assaults??

[Protoculture]

I don't even play any of them and I voted No and Hell No to everything.

[Warma]

That Guy, on 06 February 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

rather than treating the symptoms, we need to treat the causes.
the biggest problem now is with SRM stacking. what that means is all launchers fire from the same missile tubes at the same time. so 6 tubes are launching 18 missiles in a very tight and compact formation. this gives grouped SRMs a huge advantage because the surface area is so small concentrating damage. each launcher needs to launch from different tubes. and if not enough tubes are available, fire sequentially, like it currently is handled for large launchers. right now the atlas DC can fire 18 missiles (SRM) out of 6 tubes. the cent9-A can fire 18 missiles out of 10. the A1 can fire 18 missiles out of 15 (in the space of 6).

This. So very much this.

[Apoc1138]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 February 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

Just kill the ears....

Let's say you're a perfect shot, but the SRM6s miss 50 % of the time (or spread their damage in an unfortunate manner). That would mean you'd take 104 or 117 damage. (Both damage values incidentally would be high enough to kill a mech armored like the Splatapult)

2 Observations:
1) If you're alone against the Splatapult, you probably need to be really good to take it out before it takes out you.
2) If you're in a group, how good do you think your team is at coordinating its fire on the ear? If you can do it perfectly, going for the ears sounds best. But if only about 15 % of your team's damage is initially directed at the wrong ear - e.g 85 % shoot left, 15 % shoot right, you may have been better off if all agreed to shoot the center torso - there is only one of those.

one thing to bear in mind... when you aim at the cats CT, there's a high liklihood that you are splashing damage over to side torsos... when shooting at the ears (I find) it's much easier to land more damage consistently, particularly at range (e.g. trying to keep the SRM cat at range to massively reduce or even disable it's ability to land damage)

up close you are right, you are probably best off just trying to lay as much damage in to it as possible to make it easier for a team mate when you die... but at range, taking an ear off tends to have quite a big psychological impact on the SRM-cat - in that he's no longer dead set on getting in the middle of your team to take down as many as he can before dying and disrupting your entire cohesion in the process

Edited by Apoc1138, 08 February 2013 - 02:46 AM.

[Sifright]

Warma, on 08 February 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

This. So very much this.

each ear has 20 missile launchers.

LRM 20 in each ear as standard.

Being able to fit 18 srm launchers in each ear fits.

Infact we should be able to fit 3 SRM6 and 1 SRM2 by your standards in each ear...

Apoc1138, on 08 February 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

one thing to bear in mind... when you aim at the cats CT, there's a high liklihood that you are splashing damage over to side torsos... when shooting at the ears (I find) it's much easier to land more damage consistently, particularly at range (e.g. trying to keep the SRM cat at range to massively reduce or even disable it's ability to land damage)

up close you are right, you are probably best off just trying to lay as much damage in to it as possible to make it easier for a team mate when you die... but at range, taking a ear off tends to have quite a big psychological impact on the SRM-cat - in that he's not longer dead set on getting in the middle of your team to take down as many as he can before dying and disrupting your entire cohesion in the process

The thing is how often do you ever see an A1 at range unless the pilot is being a complete Jeb?

[B0oN]

I´m just saying
"HELL NO !" to all points without even using Cata´s.

Gentlemen, I really suggest stopping to do what you are doing and invest that energy you are wasting in here for your gaming.

[Apoc1138]

Sifright, on 08 February 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

The thing is how often do you ever see an A1 at range unless the pilot is being a complete Jeb?

quite often... I tend to position myself at the back of clear terrain covering choke points... it's quite rare that I find myself at less than 300m with one before I've spotted and identified one