440 replies to this topic

[QuantumButler]

I WANT TO TAKE THE EARS OFF BUT I CAN'T.

[skullman86]

If I had to make changes to the mechs

-Give the A1 less range of movement for the ears/torso or lower the missile hardpoints to x4 instead of x6. Lower SRM damage a little bit alongside any chassis changes.

-Give the K2 larger side torsos when equipping ballistic weapons bigger than an AC/2 or move the ballistic hardpoints to the center torso. Give MGs a good buff regardless of the changes so there is actually a reason to use them.

...and since we are on the subject of nerfing ****, how about lowering the range of movement on arms/torsos for all the ECM mechs with missile hardpoints, or give them wider turning? They'll still get their bubble and their streaks, but the lesser variants will have a chance to out maneuver them for a change. ECM is supposed to be used for support, so I don't see it being a problem if these mechs suddenly drop from the top of the scoreboards.

[QuantumButler]

skullman86, on 10 February 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

If I had to make changes to the mechs

-Give the A1 less range of movement for the ears/torso or lower the missile hardpoints to x4 instead of x6. Lower SRM damage a little bit alongside any chassis changes.

-Give the K2 larger side torsos when equipping ballistic weapons bigger than an AC/2 or move the ballistic hardpoints to the center torso. Give MGs a good buff regardless of the changes so there is actually a reason to use them.

...and since we are on the subject of nerfing ****, how about lowering the range of movement on arms/torsos for all the ECM mechs with missile hardpoints, or give them wider turning? They'll still get their bubble and their streaks, but the lesser variants will have a chance to out maneuver them for a change. ECM is supposed to be used for support, so I don't see it being a problem if these mechs suddenly drop from the top of the scoreboards.

I'm in favor of brinig the catapult's torso twist down to SANE levels, namely around the range of a awesome at most, a fire support mech shouldn't have THE BEST TORSO TWIST IN THE GAME, BETTER THAN ALL OTHER MECHS WITH COMPLETELY FIXED ARMS.

Something also needs to be done about the impossible to hit side torsos that let them mount XL engines with nearly zero risk, if you nerf the actual srm launchers, you just hurt every mech that isn't a catapult that uses the weapon, they need to be viable when you only take one or two srm launchers, you cannot balance a weapon around being boated en masse, or else the weapon just won't be able to perform when not boated, forcing people to use something else, like boating more lasers.

[LaserAngel]

QuantumButler, on 10 February 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

I'm in favor of brinig the catapult's torso twist down to SANE levels, namely around the range of a awesome at most, a fire support mech shouldn't have THE BEST TORSO TWIST IN THE GAME, BETTER THAN ALL OTHER MECHS WITH COMPLETELY FIXED ARMS.

Something also needs to be done about the impossible to hit side torsos that let them mount XL engines with nearly zero risk, if you nerf the actual srm launchers, you just hurt every mech that isn't a catapult that uses the weapon, they need to be viable when you only take one or two srm launchers, you cannot balance a weapon around being boated en masse, or else the weapon just won't be able to perform when not boated, forcing people to use something else, like boating more lasers.

I took a spin in the tweaked Awesome and though its torso twist would be enough for the Catapult.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kobold, on 09 February 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

Again, if an OP mech is only OP when using a lot of one specific weapon, the problem is the weapon, not the mech.


My vote: Lower the damage, tighten the spread on SRMs. They will retain usefulness, but not be insta-body-part-removers.

I generally agree. I think the main problem with boating has always been that "boats" use the most efficient weapon the user can find, thus gaining a significant advantage over anyone with a mixed loadout that also uses "weaker" weapons.

But I think the Catapult is special.
There are two mechs using two different weapons that are the usual problem.
The K2 when used with ballistics as main weapon.
The A1 with its 6 missile launchers.

AC/20, Gauss and SRMs are good weapons, but I wouldn't say they are fundamentally OP. (I am still a little undecided on the SRMs, to be honest.)
But I think the Catapult is an additional factor here. It's torso twist range makes the fact that it doesn't have lower arm actuators completely irrelevant. Together with the Twist Range efficiency, this gives it incredible and unique firing angles that cannot be found on any other mech, and it allows it to utilize all these weapons much better than any other mech, without any cost. A mech that would arm-mounted AC/20 or SRMs would otherwise at least pay with a crit for the movement range, for example. And it would still have less defensive manevuering capability, as its torso cannot move as far out of enemy fire as that of the Cata.

[EvilCow]

Well, the Catapult general geometry would justify its torso twist, it has a good torso twist also in previous games so it can be considered "canon".

The problem, IMO, is limited to the A1 boating SRMs and could be fixed by removing convergence from arm weapons since the Catapult does not have actuators and the arms are unable to rotate. That single fix would remove the real issue: the 90 points of damage at close range. Massive spread damage would be OK and in line with how SRMs are supposed to work.

I don't have problems with dual ACs or dual Gauss anymore, both configs have real drawbacks.

Edited by EvilCow, 10 February 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[MischiefSC]

The A1 can only use missiles. In its arms .That's it. That's all it can carry. It can't carry lasers or ballistics if it wants. It can carry missiles. Splitting your weapons loadout between LRMs and SRMs has benefits and drawbacks as well since you really can't bring all your weapons to focus on one target save in a narrow margin of range overlap.

you want to change the A1? Change its hardpoints. Otherwise the mech is designed, specifically, to boat.

[Stingz]

EvilCow, on 10 February 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Well, the Catapult general geometry would justify its torso twist, it has a good torso twist also in previous games so it can be considered "canon".

Previous games gave it 100, MWO gives it a full 140.

Edited by Stingz, 10 February 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[QuantumButler]

MischiefSC, on 10 February 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

The A1 can only use missiles. In its arms .That's it. That's all it can carry. It can't carry lasers or ballistics if it wants. It can carry missiles. Splitting your weapons loadout between LRMs and SRMs has benefits and drawbacks as well since you really can't bring all your weapons to focus on one target save in a narrow margin of range overlap.

you want to change the A1? Change its hardpoints. Otherwise the mech is designed, specifically, to boat.

No, we want to change all catapults, get rid of their ridiculous torso twist which makes them the best heavy mech brawlers in the game.

[theborgeffect]

How about adding a kick back function when shooting a boat weapon that requires one. Or with AC20 the torso should have to go into a lock mode for 5 to 10 seconds after firing.

[Codejack]

QuantumButler, on 10 February 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

No, we want to change all catapults, get rid of their ridiculous torso twist which makes them the best heavy mech brawlers in the game.

Right, that's why you never see Dragons or Cataphracts being played, right?

[HiplyRustic]

Killed A1s yesterday, died to A1s yesterday.

Killed K2s yesterday, died to K2s yesterday.

I think that means it's working as intended.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

The problem isnt catapults, the problem is SRMs and Gauss/AC20.

Accuracy during movement need to be offset by a factor of speed vs max speed. If a 'mech wants to fire perfectly accurate shots while hobbling around the battlefield, it should have to be moving slowly or be stationary to do so. That's just physics.

I can see 'mechs being built with this in mind, but such a system would be complex and heavy. If such a thing was a regularly available technology, (like ECMs, JJs, Consoles or beagles are.) then it should be a mod that adds weight per weapon, similar to artemis. "Sway Compensation Array" or something.

As it stands, weapons firing accurately during bipedal movement is a big no-no, and it is causing problems.

Thanks for all the hard work, PGI. Looking forward to your solution!

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 10 February 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[Stingz]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 10 February 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

The problem isnt catapults, the problem is SRMs and Gauss/AC20.

Accuracy during movement need to be offset by a factor of speed vs max speed. If a 'mech wants to fire perfectly accurate shots while hobbling around the battlefield, it should have to be moving slowly or be stationary to do so. That's just physics.

I can see 'mechs being built with this in mind, but such a system would be complex and heavy. If such a thing was a regularly available technology, (like ECMs, JJs, Consoles or beagles are.) then it should be a mod that adds weight per weapon, similar to artemis. "Sway Compensation Array" or something.

As it stands, weapons firing accurately during bipedal movement is a big no-no, and it is causing problems.

Thanks for all the hard work, PGI. Looking forward to your solution!

Targeting Computers, the Clans already have them. Putting in random spread now would be horrible.

Edited by Stingz, 10 February 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[tender bottom]

I see the point in this but to be real

you can't just run in with an A1 SRM cat and expect not to die instantly, there is a strategy that must be played.

in my K2 I have two different builds I like, and still can't just run in like you are the best.

You see an enemy A1 SRM build, you call it as primary target, take the damage out of the match, blow one ear off, stay out of 270 meters.

same for anything that is the big threat, call it as primary and focus your fire.

[Stingz]

bleeche, on 10 February 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

You see an enemy A1 SRM build, you call it as primary target, take the damage out of the match, blow one ear off, stay out of 270 meters.

same for anything that is the big threat, call it as primary and focus your fire.

Cover(lots of it), Speed of an XL(tiny side-torso), ECM(enemy can't see loadout).

Good players can get around the weaknesses, then tear an Atlas up in 2 alphas (easily done with DHS).

[Darknight99]

It seems like most peoples complaints are the massive damage 6x6 srm builds put out. Also The fact that they are mounting such large weapons on the k2.

I am not defending the splat kat or the dual ac/20’s (I have no idea how you fit two of those on a k2 btw)
But with the c1 as my main mech which I normally have 2 lrm 15’s and 4 med lasers mounted, I do worry that everyone wants to nerf its torso twist. The C1 is one of the least complained about mech’s yet everyone is completely willing to nerf all catapults torso twist.
You see the catapult C1 was the first mech I enjoyed after I started playing. I tried an awesome and stalker prior the C1. I enjoy it because I got tired of people being able to circle me and get pot shots off whenever they felt like.
So… While I admit I’m not the best player in the world, can we stop trying to get them to nerf all the torso twist of every catapult variant.
I haven’t seen one complaint about the c1 and very little complaints about the C4 if any. I also don’t own an A1 and really have no desire to own one. I’m not a brawler type player.

Edited by Darknight99, 10 February 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Kaspirikay]

My streakcat eats any SRM6 cats.

[valkyrie]

Darknight99, on 10 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

It seems like most peoples complaints are the massive damage 6x6 srm builds put out. Also The fact that they are mounting such large weapons on the k2.

I am not defending the splat kat or the dual ac/20’s (I have no idea how you fit two of those on a k2 btw)
But with the c1 as my main mech which I normally have 2 lrm 15’s and 4 med lasers mounted, I do worry that everyone wants to nerf its torso twist. The C1 is one of the least complained about mech’s yet everyone is completely willing to nerf all catapults torso twist.
You see the catapult C1 was the first mech I enjoyed after I started playing. I tried an awesome and stalker prior the C1. I enjoy it because I got tired of people being able to circle me and get pot shots off whenever they felt like.
So… While I admit I’m not the best player in the world, can we stop trying to get them to nerf all the torso twist of ever catapult variant.
I haven’t seen one complaint about the c1 and very little complaints about the C4 if any. I also don’t own an A1 and really have no desire to own one. I’m not a brawler type player.

Personally, I'd say you're doing it right and your C1 is how the Catapult should be used according to lore, but by that same token you shouldn't need the 140 degree torso twist since your entire job is to stand behind your team and lob LRMs. If each individual 'Mech gets tweaked for torso twist, the C1 is probably the only one that should still get a fairly large twist range.

(edited because I'm a moron who forgot where the C1's laser hardpoints are)

Edited by valkyrie, 10 February 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Codejack]

Kaspirikay, on 10 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

My streakcat eats any SRM6 cats.

Ooh, I have exactly the opposite experience; streaks just don't have the damage to take out a heavy quickly enough.