233 replies to this topic

[Kousagi]

One Medic Army, on 07 February 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Don't forget that right around the time streaks got 100% hit rate, PGI fixed a bug that had previously prevented streaks from applying full damage. Compared to earlier times streaks got a damage buff at about the same time they got 100% hit rate.

I did forget about the damage buff (bug fix), but in the grand scheme of things it was a minor thing to the stack that made SSRM's OP.

Though I do love the people screaming "L2A" vs light mechs... As if any Jenner variant vs a Streak/ECM 3L with equally skilled pilots could ever hope to win.

Edited by Kousagi, 07 February 2013 - 04:16 PM.

[INSEkT L0GIC]

For those arguing against Streaks launching at 90 degrees you need to watch more videos of cruise missile launches.

[Vlad Ward]

Kousagi, on 07 February 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Though I do love the people screaming "L2A" vs light mechs... As if any Jenner variant vs a Streak/ECM 3L with equally skilled pilots could ever hope to win.

At high skill levels, pilots are only gimping themselves by taking the Mech with fewer guns, less speed, and no jump jets. A JR7-D with a good pilot will trash an equally skilled RVN-3L through sheer chassis superiority.

3 lasers vs 4 lasers. 4 missiles vs 8 missiles. xl295 vs xl300. No JJ vs JJ.

The JR7-D is literally superior to the RVN-3L in every way assuming the pilot has the skill necessary to aim manual SRMs.

[Kyone Akashi]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

It was rare for me to ever drop alone so working as a team our lights would often crash into the enemy lights if the enemy lights were close to our team.

Shame on your team for denying the opponent honorable combat, then.

I too hope for the ability of larger/heavier 'Mechs to knock down lighter weight classes, as it weeds out bad pilots and their habit of zipping around in the midst of an enemy formation without awareness of their immediate surroundings.
However, this is a BattleTech game, not "bowling with robots", and so I hope that we will never, ever see ramming return as a primary "tactic" replacing weapons fire.

As for your "proof" of all Lights being OP, I can only say that it would look a lot more convincing if you would pick your hated Jenner (why don't you check out how it feels? just to avoid tunnel vision) rather than the chassis currently most feared by Lights more than anything else.

With a 3L, your entire argument just does not make sense, as all you are going to prove is what most other Light pilots have been saying for weeks and which is obvious when you look at the average team setup these days. Which is not that "all Lights are OP", by the way.

How can they be OP, anyways, if all Lights are so very easy to hit, as Vlad claims?

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

The reason you only see crutch Lights running around in the average match is that most of the old, CBT Light pilots quit the class because broken Netcode was so boring and, frankly, playing with broken Netcode never gave any incoming Light pilots the ability to learn how to play the class.

Or perhaps it is because a lot of pilots are tired from being auto-pwned by a weapon that hits always and from anywhere.

Don't tell me that you can keep a laser on a target component circling you in ~10 meters distance across uneven terrain at a speed of ~140 kph for the full duration of the weapon's burn cycle. Or prove it with a video.

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

This thread is awful. SSRMs are only 5 damage, and Ravens are massive (for Lights) with absolutely no vertical mobility to speak of.

10 damage with a 3L, or 15 damage with a 2D, all with 100% hit chance every 3.5 seconds. Where a average Light has about ~20 armor on a torso location.
Do the math.

[One Medic Army]

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

The JR7-D is literally superior to the RVN-3L in every way assuming the pilot has the skill necessary to aim manual SRMs.

Even with manually aimed SRMs, they still spread. Sure I can kill any raven-3L I manage to trick into a jousting match where I can approach close enough to unload all my SRMs (4x2) into his torso. The raven however has better effective range since he can consistently land all 4 missiles at maximum fire rate out to 270m. A Jenner unloading 2x SRM4s into a raven at 200+m is lucky to hit half his missiles.
In an open space I have no chance unless there is a severe skill imbalance in my favor. In an enclosed/cluttered space I generally have the advantage, until his help shows up while the rest of my team has no idea where I am due to ECM jamming.
Since his missiles tend to hit my front side torsos, whereas my SRM blast tends to his his CT mainly if close enough, and spread everywhere otherwise he also needs to deal less damage to score a kill.

[Kousagi]

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

At high skill levels, pilots are only gimping themselves by taking the Mech with fewer guns, less speed, and no jump jets. A JR7-D with a good pilot will trash an equally skilled RVN-3L through sheer chassis superiority.

3 lasers vs 4 lasers. 4 missiles vs 8 missiles. xl295 vs xl300. No JJ vs JJ.

The JR7-D is literally superior to the RVN-3L in every way assuming the pilot has the skill necessary to aim manual SRMs.

If you were a skilled player like you claim, then you would know about the 140 hard cap on speed.. meaning a XL280 with pilotskill puts you at 142, which is a tad over the cap, but not a big deal. 3 lasers on a 3L? do you like to over heat? 2 is more then enough... and if you are carrying 4 med lasers and 2 srm4's on a jenner, then what are you giving up? same with jumpjets. You can't have it all on the jenner without giving something up.

Though, with the 3L, my setup with it is 2 med lasers, with 2 streaks, with 4 tons of ammo, and a xl280. not found a jenner yet that can even make me work for a kill. JJ's are not even needed, sure they can be useful sometimes, but most pilots just get themselfs killed with them. Though a Skilled light pilot can make due without JJ's... just saying.

edit: forgot what army said too... SRM's are bad at spread, so... equal skill here, the raven will most likely keep their distance, making your srm's kinda derpy... Though, even at closer ranges they all will not hit, unless you are like 30 meters away.

Edited by Kousagi, 07 February 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Kousagi, on 07 February 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

If you were a skilled player like you claim, then you would know about the 140 hard cap on speed.. meaning a XL280 with pilotskill puts you at 142, which is a tad over the cap, but not a big deal. 3 lasers on a 3L? do you like to over heat? 2 is more then enough... and if you are carrying 4 med lasers and 2 srm4's on a jenner, then what are you giving up? same with jumpjets. You can't have it all on the jenner without giving something up.

Speed cap is 140 w/o speed tweak. It's ~150 with, and yes people do go that fast.

[Kousagi]

One Medic Army, on 07 February 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Speed cap is 140 w/o speed tweak. It's ~150 with, and yes people do go that fast.

Nope, speed cap is 140, even if you are displaying 150. Its a hardcap due to the game engine.

[SpiralRazor]

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Streaks are fine. Lights are supposed to be the hardest class to pilot at top tier level, and they are. The Jenner is the top tier Light. If you don't have the skill to pilot it effectively (which includes the ability to smash enemy Lights with 2xSRM4), the Streak Raven has some nice, shiny training wheels on it.

Everyone knew Netcode fixes would produce a cacophony of tears as substandard Light pilots who never had to learn how to drive or how to shoot were thrown back into the real world. How this thread has gone on for 8 pages is beyond me.

Agree 1000% with Vlad.

Bad Light mech Pilots - QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ.

No wonder i read in 5 separate posts how many light pilots went to heavies and assaults now that there crutch has been mostly removed.


EDIT: I am in not way trying to say that the Raven 3L isnt OP, because its STILL the best light out there and is even > Cicadas

Edited by SpiralRazor, 07 February 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[Havics Child]

the simple solution is this, shut up and stop crying and be a better pilot, the easy way to beat a 3L is to shoot it more times with more weapons(and yes i do run a jenner some times, im great against other lights, but die to fast against heavier mechs).and steaks are made to lock on and kill light mechs, if they start changing that the whole point to useing steaks is gone, streaks are built to follow, and a mech is made so it doesnt loose the lock on to quickly, plus if you have the extras that means that not only did you put a crapload of time into the game to buy them with gxp but it also means you put time and money into buying what you psychically put onto your mech

[One Medic Army]

Kousagi, on 07 February 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Nope, speed cap is 140, even if you are displaying 150. Its a hardcap due to the game engine.

No, it's not the game engine.
The speed cap is due to faster things being effectively un-hittable due to game engine limitations, but the game engine does let them go faster.
So PGI put in engine limitations to prevent anyone breaking 140kph. Speed tweak allows you to go faster though.

And to everyone saying that Streaks were designed to kill light mechs, you're wrong, very wrong.
Streaks were designed (in tabletop) to be efficient weapons for the purposes of heat and ammo usage. They had no higher chance to hit than normal SRMs, but only caused heat buildup and used ammo when the attack roll succeeded.
So no, they're not designed to counter light mechs, if anything is designed to counter light mechs it's pulse lasers.

Edited by One Medic Army, 07 February 2013 - 11:24 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Kyone Akashi, on 07 February 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

10 damage with a 3L, or 15 damage with a 2D, all with 100% hit chance every 3.5 seconds. Where a average Light has about ~20 armor on a torso location.
Do the math.

I do math regarding stats in this game regularly. Very few people bother to read it because numbers are hard, mmkay?

A Jenner takes 36 damage to the CT before it falls over, assuming a 24:20 armor distribution (which is pretty generous). Not all of those missiles are going to hit the CT. Not all of them are even going to hit the torsos, which you'd know if you've ever been in a high speed dogfight. Many may not even hit the Mech at all, if you're in close quarters with cover (SSRM tracking doesn't prevent them from slamming into rocks). Streaks don't "melt" anything.

Kousagi, on 07 February 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

If you were a skilled player like you claim, then you would know about the 140 hard cap on speed.. meaning a XL280 with pilotskill puts you at 142, which is a tad over the cap, but not a big deal. 3 lasers on a 3L? do you like to over heat? 2 is more then enough... and if you are carrying 4 med lasers and 2 srm4's on a jenner, then what are you giving up? same with jumpjets. You can't have it all on the jenner without giving something up.

Though, with the 3L, my setup with it is 2 med lasers, with 2 streaks, with 4 tons of ammo, and a xl280. not found a jenner yet that can even make me work for a kill. JJ's are not even needed, sure they can be useful sometimes, but most pilots just get themselfs killed with them. Though a Skilled light pilot can make due without JJ's... just saying.

edit: forgot what army said too... SRM's are bad at spread, so... equal skill here, the raven will most likely keep their distance, making your srm's kinda derpy... Though, even at closer ranges they all will not hit, unless you are like 30 meters away.

I must have posted my Jenner on these boards half a dozen times in the past week because, apparently, people have no idea how to Mechlab. I'm not posting it again. If you can't fit guns, armor, jets, and engines on a 35 ton Light then just go away.

It's also straight impossible to "keep your distance" from a Mech of equal speed unless you're running directly away from them. Any time a Raven turns to lock/shoot, you can close the gap fairly quickly. "Making due" without JJs is dumb since the main reason to equip them is for super-corners and 180 spins. The height is just a bonus since most people can neither hit nor track aerial targets.

[Kousagi]

One Medic Army, on 07 February 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

No, it's not the game engine.
The speed cap is due to faster things being effectively un-hittable due to game engine limitations, but the game engine does let them go faster.
So PGI put in engine limitations to prevent anyone breaking 140kph. Speed tweak allows you to go faster though.

It was said back in closed beta when they put it in. The engine limitations came in back when speed tweak was still 2.5% which only pushed xl300's to like 141. People have tested this, 140 is the cap, or so close to it that theres no noticeable difference in speed.

Though you can test it. I've tested it when i can.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

Returning knockdowns will reduce the need for streaks against other light mechs and might encourage a return to the closed beta style of having 1 light tackle an enemy light while other mechs focus fire on the knocked down enemy light to kill it before it can stand back up.

This is the worst picture of gameplay balance that has ever been painted.. I genuinely hope that they do re-introduce collisions, but in a thoughtful enough way that tripping is NOT the best tactic for light on light fighting. How ANYONE can think that trip and gank sounds like a fun gameplay feature is beyond me. Light mechs should be a good defense against other light mechs but they should do it by actually fighting. It boggles my mind how many players actually favor boring but easy over fun but challenging. MOST of the game is based on skill and tactics, yet the few things that encourage players to circumvent skill seem to be what the community clamors for. Very sad. Even more-so when you see it from the 'serious' or 'competitive' players. I'm not that skilled personally, but I do feel justified in telling players to grow some balls, strap on a laser or two and fight a light. Its not that hard. If you have to resort to trip and gank for your kills you deserve no more respect than the players who need to rely on crutch Streak missiles for their kills.

[Kyone Akashi]

Havics Child, on 07 February 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

and steaks are made to lock on and kill light mechs, if they start changing that the whole point to useing steaks is gone, streaks are built to follow

So make it that anyone can use them and have Streaks and ECM work like they do in the tabletop.

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

A Jenner takes 36 damage to the CT before it falls over, assuming a 24:20 armor distribution (which is pretty generous). Not all of those missiles are going to hit the CT. Not all of them are even going to hit the torsos, which you'd know if you've ever been in a high speed dogfight. Many may not even hit the Mech at all, if you're in close quarters with cover (SSRM tracking doesn't prevent them from slamming into rocks). Streaks don't "melt" anything.

Streaks actually do have a notable tendency to go for the torso sections. I have never lost an arm or a leg to a Streak. Indeed, in those grisly duels with 2Ds or 3Ls, I do not even lose much armor in these components - what I lose at all is likely just due to splash damage, or because some few of their pilots actually do bother shooting with their lasers in addition to the missile barrage.

The splash is also why it does not make much of a difference on whether the Center Torso or one of the sides is hit, by the way. Since those three sections are the main recipients of Streak love, the damage is going to be spread nicely across all torso regions. If you have piloted a Jenner in a fight against 2Ds and 3Ls, you must know this.

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 07 February 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

This is the worst picture of gameplay balance that has ever been painted.. I genuinely hope that they do re-introduce collisions, but in a thoughtful enough way that tripping is NOT the best tactic for light on light fighting. How ANYONE can think that trip and gank sounds like a fun gameplay feature is beyond me.

At this point, I am somewhat surprised that nobody has advocated that Lights should have no armor and a speed cap of 60 kph ... yet.

[Vlad Ward]

Increase your relative angular velocity + Twist your torso = Streaks hit your arms. It's not like you need to maintain a missile lock.

[Havics Child]

i just cant wait to see how much players complain when they bring in ssrm4 and ssrm6 clan tech or even better, the beeeeaaaauuuutiful slrms that all players will love so much, that combined with counter ecm on a light is going to be the most popular setup for a while once they bring in clan tech, and i look forward to the heavy medium lasers that you can put on a k2 with dual uac5s weighing only 1 ton per and doing 9 damage, but what i dont look forward to is all the complaints about glitches that will happen even if no glitches occur

[Kyone Akashi]

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Increase your relative angular velocity + Twist your torso = Streaks hit your arms. It's not like you need to maintain a missile lock.

With the way Streak Missiles are flying right now, it makes little difference. You are aware of the ongoing discussion regarding their weird behavior when fired during a "knife fight"? Pulling stunts such as making instant U-turns and phasing through their owner's body and other such phenomena?

It's not like I do not know how to attempt to protect my torso. I have been playing the Jenner since my very first day in the game, back in June.
That being said, I do not yet have a 360° target retention module, so it is also hard to gauge from which side the missiles will actually hit me. Not to mention that most Streak users tend to chainfire their missiles (with some chassis this is actually mandatory - I heard the Raven has one launcher with only one missile tube), so that you are stuck between trying to fight the enemy or turning the other cheek.

Nah, I'm better off doing as much damage as I can before I go down. This way, there is at least a better chance my teammates can avenge my death.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 07 February 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

It's a good thing entire Mechs can make 180 u-turns and phase through each other right now, or that would be absolutely terrible.

To put this thread into perspective, walking into this is like walking into a thread full of Stalker pilots complaining about the AS7-D-DC having ECM and a Ballistic slot. I am simply incredulous.

[Zylo]

Kyone Akashi, on 07 February 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Shame on your team for denying the opponent honorable combat, then.

I too hope for the ability of larger/heavier 'Mechs to knock down lighter weight classes, as it weeds out bad pilots and their habit of zipping around in the midst of an enemy formation without awareness of their immediate surroundings.
However, this is a BattleTech game, not "bowling with robots", and so I hope that we will never, ever see ramming return as a primary "tactic" replacing weapons fire.

As for your "proof" of all Lights being OP, I can only say that it would look a lot more convincing if you would pick your hated Jenner (why don't you check out how it feels? just to avoid tunnel vision) rather than the chassis currently most feared by Lights more than anything else.

With a 3L, your entire argument just does not make sense, as all you are going to prove is what most other Light pilots have been saying for weeks and which is obvious when you look at the average team setup these days. Which is not that "all Lights are OP", by the way.

How can they be OP, anyways, if all Lights are so very easy to hit, as Vlad claims?

Or perhaps it is because a lot of pilots are tired from being auto-pwned by a weapon that hits always and from anywhere.

Don't tell me that you can keep a laser on a target component circling you in ~10 meters distance across uneven terrain at a speed of ~140 kph for the full duration of the weapon's burn cycle. Or prove it with a video.

10 damage with a 3L, or 15 damage with a 2D, all with 100% hit chance every 3.5 seconds. Where a average Light has about ~20 armor on a torso location.
Do the math.

Why would I care about honorable combat? I care about winning and the tactic of knocking down enemy lights to kill them fast was very effective.

Many lights still lag in game even with the netcode fixes. Running small groups some of the time I often see a light mech on our team run out to distract the enemy and see most of the team trying to kill this light mech yet it crashes into enemy mechs and still comes back to the friendly team alive.

That is the OP part of the lack of collision knockdowns. Lights can stay closer to an enemy mech than they should be able to due to the lack of collision knockdowns. This often allows the light mech to avoid being hit by their target which can not aim down to hit the light in many cases. In closed beta this larger mech would just crash into the light, back up and kill the light before it could finish standing up, which is the way it should be.

So here it is again so you don't miss it - Light are OP because they can remain too close to an enemy mech with no fear of being knocked down. This allows the light to hit the larger mech but in many cases does not allow the larger mech any chance to hit the light mech.

I have no desire to play a Jenner, I'd rather kill the Jenners with a mech that they used to kill easily when the Jenner was the dominant light.

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 07 February 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

This is the worst picture of gameplay balance that has ever been painted.. I genuinely hope that they do re-introduce collisions, but in a thoughtful enough way that tripping is NOT the best tactic for light on light fighting. How ANYONE can think that trip and gank sounds like a fun gameplay feature is beyond me. Light mechs should be a good defense against other light mechs but they should do it by actually fighting. It boggles my mind how many players actually favor boring but easy over fun but challenging. MOST of the game is based on skill and tactics, yet the few things that encourage players to circumvent skill seem to be what the community clamors for. Very sad. Even more-so when you see it from the 'serious' or 'competitive' players. I'm not that skilled personally, but I do feel justified in telling players to grow some balls, strap on a laser or two and fight a light. Its not that hard. If you have to resort to trip and gank for your kills you deserve no more respect than the players who need to rely on crutch Streak missiles for their kills.

It's not supposed to be fun for the enemy on the receiving end, it's supposed to be an effective means of eliminating the enemy as fast as possible. It's called tactics, something smart players use. I will say that after a bit too much to drink much fun was had in closed beta ramming into the enemy lights and watching them die instantly when the 7 others on the team focus fired the downed enemy light mech.

Edited by Zylo, 07 February 2013 - 05:27 PM.