233 replies to this topic

[Havyek]

mike29tw, on 07 February 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

People use SSRMs not because they can't hit with other weapons. People use SSRMs because they can hit enemies they're not even looking at 90 degrees from the launcher with 100% accuracy.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I forgot that SSRMs automatically spewed missiles and just looked for the closest enemy target. They don't need target lock, and you don't need to do something like, say, put your crosshairs on a target in order to gain said lock.

[Roland]

I would tend to agree with the overall assessment that streaks need to be nerfed somehow.

Now that light mechs aren't all auto-win, I started driving them again. The Jenner was a workable mech again, since it has a chance to kill ECM light mechs now using direct fire weapons, but I recently started driving the 3L raven again, and in all honesty I had forgotten how EZ-Mode that mech is.

And the reason isn't the ECM.. it's the fact that it can bring streaks, and consistently field them. That's what makes that mech different. Once ECM came into play, I generally removed streaks from most of my mechs... but the 3L can always bring them, and they are incredibly strong. Keep pressing the fire button, and continue to get 10 guaranteed damage against your target, always.

ECM itself isn't the problem with the 3L.. the problem is really the fact that streaks are still one of the most effective weapons in the game, and the ECM simply allows the 3L to field them at will.

[Gaan Cathal]

Roland, on 07 February 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

And the reason isn't the ECM.. it's the fact that it can bring streaks, and consistently field them. That's what makes that mech different. Once ECM came into play, I generally removed streaks from most of my mechs... but the 3L can always bring them, and they are incredibly strong. Keep pressing the fire button, and continue to get 10 guaranteed damage against your target, always.

Or run a COM-2D and get 15. Why does everyone obsess over the 3L when there is a (technically) worse offender?

Yes, I pilot a 3L. No, it doesn't use streaks.

[mike29tw]

BDU Havoc, on 07 February 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I forgot that SSRMs automatically spewed missiles and just looked for the closest enemy target. They don't need target lock, and you don't need to do something like, say, put your crosshairs on a target in order to gain said lock.

Are you telling me that waving your crosshair at the general direction of your enemy is actually aiming now ?

Before you know it people will claim that player using aim-bot requires as much effort as legit players because they need to download it and turn it on.

[Roland]

BDU Havoc, on 07 February 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I forgot that SSRMs automatically spewed missiles and just looked for the closest enemy target. They don't need target lock, and you don't need to do something like, say, put your crosshairs on a target in order to gain said lock.

They're pretty much EZ mode though, Havoc. If you doubt it, run one of the OTHER light mechs, and go up against Raven 3L's.

I killed a lot of Raven 3Ls with my Jenner.. but after getting back into my own Raven 3L, my assessment is that those raven pilots were simply terribad. Because, compared to driving my other light mechs, the Raven 3L really seems trivially easy. One on one, against anything that isn't a 3L, you pretty much just pwn it in the face. The only real danger in a 3L, is running up against multiple 3L's.

And the reason is the same reason why the 3L dominates most other light mechs.. because when you are out-ECM'ed, then your opponent can use streaks, and you can't... and that means they can pretty consistently drop 10 damage on you over and over, without the aiming issues involved with firing laser weapons and landing them on a single panel for the full duration.

Honestly, I was playing my jenner and doing some decent work with it.. but it wasn't until I jumped into my 3L and had a direct comparison that I fully realized how much easier it is to drive that mech.

Gaan Cathal, on 07 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Or run a COM-2D and get 15. Why does everyone obsess over the 3L when there is a (technically) worse offender?

Yes, I pilot a 3L. No, it doesn't use streaks.

The chief reason why the 3L is superior to the 2D is that the 3L can carry a lot more armor. While the commando can pack an extra streak, it tends to be outweighed by the armor difference. It will be doing more damage in the initial volley, but very quickly will either die or have its weapons destroyed, at which point the 3L outclasses it.

[Gaan Cathal]

Roland, on 07 February 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

The chief reason why the 3L is superior to the 2D is that the 3L can carry a lot more armor. While the commando can pack an extra streak, it tends to be outweighed by the armor difference. It will be doing more damage in the initial volley, but very quickly will either die or have its weapons destroyed, at which point the 3L outclasses it.

The difference between the two is minor though, being as the problem is the ECM/Streak combo. I think the COM-2D might actually be marginally better if so many people didn't freak out as soon as they see a 3L - I can tell who the sensible pilots are on the opposing team almost as soon as I engage with my 3L because they're aiming at my legs, as opposed to just waving lasers all over like they're imitating Jackson Pollock.

In fairness, the 3L does have the edge in a dual with a COM-2D if there's an ECM blanket (i.e whichever team has superiority isn't running counter) due to the extra laser armament.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 07 February 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[SpiralRazor]

Larkis, on 07 February 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Hello Devs,

actuall there is a huge problem with SSRM2 which destroy every Light-Gameplay.

I'm a Jenner pilot. I pilot it since i get in the founder closed beta. a play it a long long time and i love it. But actuall there is a huge problem which destory every Light-Gameplay.

Let me explain the problems.

1. Aiming
In MWO there are 2 Crosshairs, one for arms and one for the torso. You could put Weapons in both but firing there together needs a little bit skill. if you are a light you mostly must only care about the arm weapons, cause the torso is to slow to turn. But the SSRM2 use the same Arm crosshair. I played a most time against SSRM2 boats and i still played sometimes as a SSRM2 Commando. its still true. I made some pictures to explain:

http://www.apload.de...19490bpr2pl.png

This is a typical situation in a cycle of Death of 2 Light mechs. In most of this cylces you only can use the arm weapons cause of the limits of the torso movement you cant turn it around fast enough. You see on the picture, the arm crosshair is on the side, maybe 90° whly the torso is still looking forward. But you only need the arm Crosshair to still lockon the Torso weapons.

With every other weapon i must snycron the two croshairs to fire all weapons. But not with SSRM2. Thats the first unbalanced problem.

2. Missile Movement
The second problem is the Misile Movement. Missiles are a weapon based on hard ammunition. There are Launchers in the Arms and Torso which are firing the rockets. The launches are fixed and cannot move. Lets loock back to the situation in the cycle of death.

http://www.apload.de...19491bxntgh.png

Again we see the commando. The position of the enemy mech is marked with the blue cycle. You also can see the fixed rocketlaunchers. The pink lines show the points where the weapons target. The arm launcher easily can hit me, no problem with this. Lock on the Torso weapon. This launcher is aiming a lot away from me. And Rockets are weapons with a Main thruster and smal control-plaetes on there back side. Yes they are able to turn, but cause of the speed of the trhsuter and the small plates, they only can turn in a curve. But actually, (you see it on the graphics as a red line, the rockets will leave the launcher turn in 90° angle at this positions and then fire the maintrust and hit. So the rockets make a move which is really impossible to do.
In reality a misxile starts, must fly a few seconds to build up speed and only then the missle can change direction. But in MWo the missile starts, change direction and than fire the main trhuster. I know MWo is not Reality but i never read that there are magic missiles wich ignore every law of physic.

3. Missile Movement and Modules


With 1 and 2 it's very hard to avoid the SSRM2 from another light. But sometimes i get the chance to move out of the range of the armcrosshair. And for this, we got 2 Modules:

First:
360 Target. - You are able to tracking Enemys behind you.

Second:
Target Decay - Still Lock on a Target which is out of your range for a few seconds.

So with both modules you are able to target the enemy light even if he is out of target range and behind you.

And know this happens:
http://www.apload.de...19492bwj5zl.png

The armlauncher do the magic thing i explained in missile movement. But the torso launcher is really a great hudini. First the rocket makes a turnaround. And then they fly Trough the Torso to hit the enemy behind the light.


And what that means for the fight?

Lets say im a Jenner. I have 3 Medium Pulse Laser and i full with Double heatsinks. I make with an Alpha 18 Damage. The Raven-L for Example make 15 Damage with the SSRM2. The SSRM2 reloads faster than the MPL. So i must hit with every target the center Torso of the Raven with an alpha only to have a little chance against the raven. In this time the raven must only lock on the enemy one time, hold them in lock and hold the finger brainafk on the weaponbutton. After a few alphas the jenner lost the damagerace cause of overheating. The Raven never overheat with the SSRm2. The Jenner does. But ther Raven not only have SSRM2. They also have Lasers ect. So there is no way to win against a Raven-L. They have the armor like a jenner, they have the same Speed but have much more weapons and not so much problems to fight with it. You need no skill and no heat managment to get the kills.

So actuall as a Light you MUST use SSRM2 to have a chance. Without SSRM2 you are a freekill for every other light. And here is anopther problem, SSRM2 Commando/Raven with ECM. Very nice, the only weapon which is a danger for the SSRm2-Ligh can be countered easily only install a ECM.

So there are only 2 Light mechs actual which are usable. Raven-L and Commander 2D. Every other Light is a freekill for this mechs. And i see the problem only on the SSRm2 and the buggy movement. So please fix this.

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ



Thats what im hearing from you sir.

Gaan Cathal, on 07 February 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

Being a petty **** isn't the best standpoint for balancing though


SSRM need limiting quite sharply at this point, being the best AND easiest to use (by far) anti-light weapon in the game. Lazymode shouldn't be bestmode. The ECM-streak combo has been fixed a little with the return of D-F weapons, but the SSRMs themselves are still screwy.

Another QQQQ "I dont want Light mechs to have any counters" post... Sorry, but light mechs have been god mode since June.

[Roland]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 February 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

The difference between the two is minor though, being as the problem is the ECM/Streak combo. I think the COM-2D might actually be marginally better if so many people didn't freak out as soon as they see a 3L - I can tell who the sensible pilots are on the opposing team almost as soon as I engage with my 3L because they're aiming at my legs, as opposed to just waving lasers all over like they're imitating Jackson Pollock.

In fairness, the 3L does have the edge in a dual with a COM-2D if there's an ECM blanket (i.e whichever team has superiority isn't running counter) due to the extra laser armament.

Yes, I think the real issue, as pointed out, is the streaks. The 3L is tougher than the Com-2D, but it's also 10 tons heavier... so it should be tougher.

But if streaks are fixed, I think the 3L will end up being better balanced.. because, like I said.. when I jumped back in my 3L, it felt like EZ mode simply because I was able to use streaks again. I hadn't used them in so long, since ECM was introduced, that I had forgotted how they essentially involve no skill compared to other weapons in the game.

Sure, they don't magically lock themselves, but gaining a lock with streaks doesn't even approach the level of skill required to keep landing direct fire weapon on that target.

[Gaan Cathal]

SpiralRazor, on 07 February 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Another QQQQ "I dont want Light mechs to have any counters" post... Sorry, but light mechs have been god mode since June.

Another QQQQ "I dont want have to aim" post... Sorry, but streaks have been easy-mode since June.

Roland, on 07 February 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

But if streaks are fixed, I think the 3L will end up being better balanced.. because, like I said.. when I jumped back in my 3L, it felt like EZ mode simply because I was able to use streaks again. I hadn't used them in so long, since ECM was introduced, that I had forgotted how they essentially involve no skill compared to other weapons in the game.

Sure, they don't magically lock themselves, but gaining a lock with streaks doesn't even approach the level of skill required to keep landing direct fire weapon on that target.

It's the utter lack of skill needed that's the problem, if they sorted ECM out tomorrow in a non-lock-breaking fashion then the problem would be a lot more obvious. The thing that bugs me is that they don't need much of a change, just force a lock loss after each volley detonates, and do something about the rear-launching sillyness. If all they do is fix ECM then the FOTM will just move to the JR7-D, which is a 3L with an extra laser and moar speed.

[Havyek]

Roland, on 07 February 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

They're pretty much EZ mode though, Havoc. If you doubt it, run one of the OTHER light mechs, and go up against Raven 3L's.

I've got up against plenty of other 3Ls. Sometimes in my 3L, sometimes in my 2D, sometimes in my JNR 7D.

Is the 3L a dangerous light 'Mech? Absolutely. Is it because of the SSRMs? Likely not. Could the SSRMs be tweaked a bit? Certainly. I wouldn't mind seeing them reduced to 2.2 or 2 damage per missile, but they don't NEED them.

Also giving them a trajectory would be nice, so they can't fire and turn 180 degrees, but IMO LRMs need this as well.

Roland, on 07 February 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

I killed a lot of Raven 3Ls with my Jenner.. but after getting back into my own Raven 3L, my assessment is that those raven pilots were simply terribad. Because, compared to driving my other light mechs, the Raven 3L really seems trivially easy. One on one, against anything that isn't a 3L, you pretty much just pwn it in the face. The only real danger in a 3L, is running up against multiple 3L's.

And the reason is the same reason why the 3L dominates most other light mechs.. because when you are out-ECM'ed, then your opponent can use streaks, and you can't... and that means they can pretty consistently drop 10 damage on you over and over, without the aiming issues involved with firing laser weapons and landing them on a single panel for the full duration.

Honestly, I was playing my jenner and doing some decent work with it.. but it wasn't until I jumped into my 3L and had a direct comparison that I fully realized how much easier it is to drive that mech.

Gaan Cathal, on 07 February 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

The difference between the two is minor though, being as the problem is the ECM/Streak combo. I think the COM-2D might actually be marginally better if so many people didn't freak out as soon as they see a 3L - I can tell who the sensible pilots are on the opposing team almost as soon as I engage with my 3L because they're aiming at my legs, as opposed to just waving lasers all over like they're imitating Jackson Pollock.

In fairness, the 3L does have the edge in a dual with a COM-2D if there's an ECM blanket (i.e whichever team has superiority isn't running counter) due to the extra laser armament.

The chief reason why the 3L is superior to the 2D is that the 3L can carry a lot more armor. While the commando can pack an extra streak, it tends to be outweighed by the armor difference. It will be doing more damage in the initial volley, but very quickly will either die or have its weapons destroyed, at which point the 3L outclasses it.

I will agree that the 3L is an EASIER 'Mech, but that doesn't make it BETTER.

As I said already, people who are poor-mediocre pilots can have some mild success with the 3L by using streaks. GOOD pilots are dangerous because they can pretty much keep chain firing streaks and do some precision damage with their lasers.

A GOOD Jenner pilot does well because they have more energy points and the same number of missile hard points.
I prefer the Jenner as an all around 'Mech because the SRMs can do good damage against enemy lights and heavier 'Mechs, whereas the SSRMs is very effective against lights, and kind of meh against heavier 'Mechs.
You're right though, I do prefer the 3L for light hunting simply because while I can use SRMs fairly effectively during a fight, they're kind of useless when the enemy light is fleeing.

Edited by BDU Havoc, 07 February 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[Roland]

Quote

I will agree that the 3L is an EASIER 'Mech, but that doesn't make it BETTER.

While this is technically true, in this particular case I think that the Raven 3L clearly is actually better. If you somehow fought yourself, and one of you was in the 3L, and the other was in ANY other light mech, I'd put money on your 3L winning.

And I think that this factor hinges entirely upon the fact that you can pack streaks, and most other mechs won't be able to, other than the 2D which has much less armor, which will very quickly translate into fewer streaks.

Streaks are effective because they result in what is essentially guaranteed damage, and give you the ability to focus more of your efforts on other more complex piloting tasks... That is, you're able to just kind of keep cranking out damage, while also being more evasive since you don't need to keep guns perfectly lined up on the target.

The difference of the 3L compared to other mechs is not nearly as bad as it was prior to them fixing the lag recently, but it's definitely still there.

Now, most of the time when a Raven dominates the other team, it means that the raven pilot was at least remotely competent and/or the other team had poor shots.. whereas previously, even an incompetent 3L could run around and wreck heads. But it's still pretty EZ-Mode compared to driving most other mechs, especially other light mechs.

Honestly, the only other mech that I am really EVER remotely threatened by, when driving my 3L, is another 3L. And this is the question you need to ask yourself. When you are in your 3L, and you see a Jenner, what is your first response? Is it , "Oh crap!" or is it, "Free kill!" Because it's probably the latter, I'm guessing.

[MaddMaxx]

I had to skip ahead due to the noise but I think many may have missed the OP's point entirely. His point has been discussed in the past and as yet nothing has been done.

A Mech Pilot should not be able to use his arm reticule to Lock any Torso mounted weapons, as the Torso has its own reticule. With the current addition of the modules, 360 and Decay, the ability to fire ALL weapon systems, be they Torso or Arm mounted, and then maintain said Torso weapons locks with just the arm reticules is simply BS.

The rule should be, once your 2 reticules diverge from one another, the weapons systems associated with each one also diverge. Such that, after a ALPHA capable Lock has been made, then the Arms swing out to the side to track the moving target, the Torso based weapons Lock is immediately lost until required by means of facing of the Torso once again.

The 360 module, iirc, is for keeping tabs on a target in the rear area, not to allow a Alpha Lock to be maintained, thus allowing Missiles to be fired forward, to only have them turn 180 degrees and fly to the unseen target without error.

Come on man! Let's make the "Twin Reticule System" a true "Twin Reticule System" and not the current weak sauce "lock and click instant Alpha all locked missiles" no matter their physical location, or the location of the enemy, make no system.

Or just get rid of one of the reticules as it is not required as is for locking missiles...

Enough time has passed, this should be really high on the priority list by now.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 07 February 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[One Medic Army]

The fact that Jenners (in my experience) only take streak hits to 3 locations (RT, LT, and rear CT) isn't helping.

[Roland]

I think the OP's notion of a "bug" isn't really a bug though.

Also, I don't think that the fact that the arm reticle provides target lock information is really the crux of the issue here. In fact, I think it's entirely immaterial, because while it may give some benefit to the commando (which is really doubtful, given that it ends up essentially just ends up compensating for the lack of torso twist), it doesn't affect the raven at all, which has no lower arm actuators.

And yet, a 3L is going to wreck his jenner just as easily.

And this is because the SSRM is kind of overpowered, not because of aiming reticles.

[Gaan Cathal]

Roland, on 07 February 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

While this is technically true, in this particular case I think that the Raven 3L clearly is actually better. If you somehow fought yourself, and one of you was in the 3L, and the other was in ANY other light mech, I'd put money on your 3L winning.

And I think that this factor hinges entirely upon the fact that you can pack streaks, and most other mechs won't be able to, other than the 2D which has much less armor, which will very quickly translate into fewer streaks.

It's not the packing of streaks exactly - the JR7-D can carry just as many after all - it's the ability to nullify other mech's streaks with the ECM. It's sure as hell why I use mine for any serious fighting, and I don't just mean other light's streaks either. I've run into Atlai of all things with 15 damage of don't-need-to-aim 'point defence' weaponry. At a more reasonable level, there are a fair number of Centurions running around packing them for light hunting duty, so until they require the firing pilot to be awake, the ECM is more or less essential.

[Roland]

Quote

It's not the packing of streaks exactly - the JR7-D can carry just as many after all - it's the ability to nullify other mech's streaks with the ECM.

Yes, of course. But the key point is that it's not the ECM really.. all the ECM is really doing is allowing one mech to use a broken weapons system, while the other one can't.

Prior to ECM, you saw streaks on LOTS of mechs. Then ECM came about and suddenly only two mechs carried streaks.

[Shismar]

Of course streaks are very effective against light mechs, that is what they are designed for. So this is not a bug, it is a feature.

I also find it funny how easy it is supposed to be to kill a Jenner with ballistics and energy weapons. If it is fast and well piloted, there is little chance to do that with any running 120+. It is even quite difficult to gain and retain a lock on them for the streaks. As I am seeing quite a few Jenners around again since reduction of lag shield made Ravens much more vulnerable, there seem to be enough pilots that are able to drive one successfully.

And as always, if you feel a mech is OP, please drive one. You may get better scores and if everyone does, PGI may nerf it.

[One Medic Army]

Shismar, on 07 February 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

And as always, if you feel a mech is OP, please drive one. You may get better scores and if everyone does, PGI may nerf it.

If I wasn't saving up for Trebuchets I'd build/pilot a 3L myself and post a comparison of damage done/XP gained per match.
Of course my 3L build only uses 1 Streak.

[Gaan Cathal]

Shismar, on 07 February 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Of course streaks are very effective against light mechs, that is what they are designed for. So this is not a bug, it is a feature.

I also find it funny how easy it is supposed to be to kill a Jenner with ballistics and energy weapons. If it is fast and well piloted, there is little chance to do that with any running 120+. It is even quite difficult to gain and retain a lock on them for the streaks. As I am seeing quite a few Jenners around again since reduction of lag shield made Ravens much more vulnerable, there seem to be enough pilots that are able to drive one successfully.

And as always, if you feel a mech is OP, please drive one. You may get better scores and if everyone does, PGI may nerf it.

Er, if it's so hard to hit a Jenner going at full whack with lasers, how do you suppose those resurgent Jenner pilots are hitting the Ravens going at the same speed? And it is not ******* difficult to acquire SSRM lock, unless you're boating them on a small-engine assault.

[Roland]

Honestly, we're seeing some weird posts here now.

Some folks are like, "Light mechs shouldn't complain about streaks, because they are the only weapons that can kill them!"

But the reality is, only light mechs can currently even FIELD streaks now, with the exception of the Atlas DDC. It used to be that lots of mechs carried streaks to swat light mechs, but that's not the case any more... because there's a good chance that the light mech you encounter is gonna have ECM, so unless you have ECM too your streaks are useless.