233 replies to this topic

[Harmin]

The post is based on a couple of the premises which I am not sure have to hold true:

1. The opponents perpetually dancing round the circle of death.
So stop circling and break out and see if you can get behind your opponent. It's like aerial dog fighting, but in 2D.

2. SSRM missiles are launched facing forward.
We actually have no specific information that dictates that those missile launch tubes are permanently facing forward. But it stands to argue that realism in this game does NOT make a lot of sense to use a reference. Consider the weapon ranges alone. Missiles magically exploding when reaching 270m? Laser beams of a power probably in the mega joules evaporating to nothing after a mere mile? Ballistic projectiles flying in a straight line as opposed to an arc?

It's a game, its developers decided on SSRMs having a homing ability. And to be fair, the damage they do is fairly minimal. It takes dozens of shots to take out even a light mech. If you insist on circling endlessly with your opponent, then it just as lacking of skill as what you dismiss as brain afk trigger finger.

Seems to me the real problem is that the OP has Jenner tunnel-vision.

Edited by Harmin, 07 February 2013 - 01:22 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

One Medic Army, on 07 February 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

I run 2x SRM4 in my Jenner, precisely because the only way I can kill Raven-3Ls is to punch them in the face with as many SRMs as possible, followed by running behind a building to break LoS and using Jumps to make quick turns. Raven automatically wins any circling fight, and will win if I run straight away as well.

Try the 6MLAS Jenner, they're more trouble for my 3L (granted, I don't use streaks) and non-spreading weapons should help vs the Streakmando.

[One Medic Army]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 February 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

Try the 6MLAS Jenner, they're more trouble for my 3L (granted, I don't use streaks) and non-spreading weapons should help vs the Streakmando.

Can't quite fit that. Currently my F is 4xML 2xSL 5xJJ (Jumps are my one major advantage in light vs light), with a 300xl.
6 Mediums runs too hot.
My Jenner D with the 2s SRM4s is actually the best at fighting ravens, since one pt blank blast with the SRMs is typically enough to drive them off or kill them. With the jumps to do quick turns behind cover I can usually get them to joust rather than circle, and in jousting the mech with the higher burst damage wins.

[Zylo]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 07 February 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

You clearly don't own or pilot lights much. Ignoring the fact that light vs. light gameplay is as valid and central to Mechwarrior as assault vs. assault gameplay, the netcode fix has made lights dramatically more risky to run. They're the only mech that can be easily one-shotted or legged, and most are dieing quickly that way now. I wouldn't say light mechs are overpowered any more. If anything, they are becoming underpowered. Wispsy is running a heavy in every game I see him in now. I wonder why.

Sure I do:


Lights take little skill to use due to the lack of collisions. I think the most commonly killed mech when I was using the 3L was a Jenner. I didn't even have to try to avoid enemy mechs, in fact some times it was easier just to crash into them and pop out the other side, then turn and shoot them in the back.

I only really started playing lights right near the end of closed beta. Very little experience doing it yet when collisions were removed I didn't even have to try. Absolutely no effort needed to dominate in a match in the week before ECM was added when I was preparing my 3L (ok I did forget about the minimal effort of avoid streak cats pre-ECM).

The lack of collision knockdowns makes *ALL* light mechs more powerful than they should be. Just watch how many mechs the average light pilot crashes into during a battle. Back in closed beta that first collision probably would have resulted in death.

For reference I pilot:
Atlas, Stalker, Cataphract, Catapult, Centurion, Hunchback and Raven. I do it all, I'm not limited to just a single weight class of mechs.

Edited by Zylo, 07 February 2013 - 01:30 AM.

[Larkis]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

I don't give a **** about the light vs light gameplay

Then please leave the topic and make your own about your collisions problems.

[Misfit73]

Larkis, on 07 February 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

A maybe good idea would be to place the lockon on the Torsoheadcross. So they cant moving so fast and other lights are able to avoid the SSRM2. Shoukld not effect on SSRm2 vs Medium ect. Cause these mechs are slow enough to target them with the torsocrosshair.

No thanks, its already hard enough (contrary to what you believe) to get a lock, or keep a lock on a moving Jenner. I had occassions where it wasnt even able to lock on lights that moved in a straight line in front of me.
And why should it be done anyway, different racks of missiles should be getting the same target info from the system, or share the target info, however you look at it.

[One Medic Army]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Sure I do:


Lights take little skill to use due to the lack of collisions. I think the most commonly killed mech when I was using the 3L was a Jenner. I didn't even have to try to avoid enemy mechs, in fact some times it was easier just to crash into them and pop out the other side, then turn and shoot them in the back.

I only really started playing lights right near the end of closed beta. Very little experience doing it yet when collisions were removed I didn't even have to try. Absolutely no effort needed to dominate in a match in the week before ECM was added when I was preparing my 3L.

The lack of collision knockdowns makes *ALL* light mechs more powerful than they should be. Just watch how many mechs the average light pilot crashes into during a battle. Back in closed beta that first collision probably would have resulted in death.

For reference I pilot:
Atlas, Stalker, Cataphract, Catapult, Centurion, Hunchback and Raven. I do it all, I'm not limited to just a single weight class of mechs.

So your experience in light mechs is based entirely on the only one run in competitive format, and the one that dominates all light vs light matchups.
You have no perspective about playing non EZ-mode light mechs.
Lagshield is gone, lights that get shot die. (more true with projectiles than lasers really though).
Raven still beats other light mechs due to not needing to aim at all when using streaks.

Edited by One Medic Army, 07 February 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[Zylo]

Larkis, on 07 February 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Then please leave the topic and make your own about your collisions problems.

No, I think I'll stay here just to try and get the REAL problems fixed first (lack of collision knockdowns) rather than some whining from a Jenner pilot about the OP streaks.

[Larkis]

Harmin, on 07 February 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

The post is based on a couple of the premises which I am not sure have to hold true:

1. The opponents perpetually dancing round the circle of death.
So stop circling and break out and see if you can get behind your opponent. It's like aerial dog fighting, but in 2D.

When you have your aerial dog fight. You have 2 Planes with the same Speed, same maneuverability? What will happen?

Harmin, on 07 February 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

2. SSRM missiles are launched facing forward.
We actually have no specific information that dictates that those missile launch tubes are permanently facing forward. But it stands to argue that realism in this game does NOT make a lot of sense to use a reference. Consider the weapon ranges alone. Missiles magically exploding when reaching 270m? Laser beams of a power probably in the mega joules evaporating to nothing after a mere mile? Ballistic projectiles flying in a straight line as opposed to an arc?

i dont think so. I think missiles explodes often if they are out o fuel to prevent that armed explosions raining from the sky. I must show but i think Rockets destroying themselfes when they cant hit the target cause they are out of fuel.

Harmin, on 07 February 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

It's a game, its developers decided on SSRMs having a homing ability. And to be fair, the damage they do is fairly minimal. It takes dozens of shots to take out even a light mech.

lets say you drive a Jenner and put oll armor to the front and expose your heck. You have then 44 Armor on the CT Front. A Raven-L habe 3 SSRM2 with 5 Damage eve shot. 2/3 of the Damage go on the CT, 1/3 Splash on the other around. So 10 Damage on 44 Armor. The Raven needs only 5 Volleys to meld our front armor away. Mostly the Jennrpilot want back armor, so the raven need 3 Volleys.

Harmin, on 07 February 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you insist on circling endlessly with your opponent, then it just as lacking of skill as what you dismiss as brain afk trigger finger.

With 2 Mechs same Speed and Maneuverability what would you do?

[Zylo]

One Medic Army, on 07 February 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

So your experience in light mechs is based entirely on the only one run in competitive format, and the one that dominates all light vs light matchups.
You have no perspective about playing non EZ-mode light mechs.
Lagshield is gone, lights that get shot die.
Raven still beats other light mechs due to not needing to aim at all when using streaks.

I also played a Jenner D and F in closed beta pre-reset and before collisions were removed.

They were a challenge with collision knockdowns.

They were ezmode once collision knockdowns were removed.

[One Medic Army]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

I also played a Jenner D and F in closed beta pre-reset and before collisions were removed.

They were a challenge with collision knockdowns.

They were ezmode once collision knockdowns were removed.

Play one now, with no lagshield.
I'd probably live longer with collisions still in rather than being pinpointed by any decent pilot with 2x AC/20 or 6x SRM6.

[Larkis]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

No, I think I'll stay here just to try and get the REAL problems fixed first (lack of collision knockdowns) rather than some whining from a Jenner pilot about the OP streaks.

When you only play the OP-Light then its not a surprise that you think only collisions work against lights.

[yashmack]

[Zylo]

One Medic Army, on 07 February 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

Play one now, with no lagshield.
I'd probably live longer with collisions still in rather than being pinpointed by any decent pilot with 2x AC/20 or 6x SRM6.

I still do run my raven, I have to be slightly more careful about using cover than before which is a good thing as the netcode fix helped. Lights shouldn't be running around in the middle of 8 enemies knowing that they can't be hit. A full netcode fix would be ideal along with collision knockdowns.

Then it would be back to lights sneaking around, looking for that lone enemy sniper or missile boat, or maybe an Atlas that wandered off alone. That's when it was actually fun to play a light. I mostly ran the Raven 3L to handle lagging enemy lights so that my team would not need to worry about them as much.

[Larkis]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

I also played a Jenner D and F in closed beta pre-reset and before collisions were removed.

They were a challenge with collision knockdowns.

They were ezmode once collision knockdowns were removed.

Then Play a actual Jennr without lagshield. Then you will learnt hat actuall without a OP-Light Gameplay light vs heavy ist fine.

But i think i know whats your problem. You are afrait you cant exploid your Master Raven-L anymore.

[Zylo]

Larkis, on 07 February 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

When you only play the OP-Light then its not a surprise that you think only collisions work against lights.

Did you even read my post?

Collisions were done to save time. You can read it in THIS post - http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1855736.

In a team, killing the enemy lights as fast as possible gave your team a huge advantage because your teams lights were then free to attack other enemy mechs or simply cap for an easy win.

Larkis, on 07 February 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Then Play a actual Jennr without lagshield. Then you will learnt hat actuall without a OP-Light Gameplay light vs heavy ist fine.

But i think i know whats your problem. You are afrait you cant exploid your Master Raven-L anymore.

I think you are just bitter that your Jenner isn't the OP light anymore. I just enjoy seeing these Jenner pilots get what they deserve after months of being the only light worth playing.

Edited by Zylo, 07 February 2013 - 01:48 AM.

[One Medic Army]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

I still do run my raven, I have to be slightly more careful about using cover than before which is a good thing as the netcode fix helped. Lights shouldn't be running around in the middle of 8 enemies knowing that they can't be hit. A full netcode fix would be ideal along with collision knockdowns.

Then it would be back to lights sneaking around, looking for that lone enemy sniper or missile boat, or maybe an Atlas that wandered off alone. That's when it was actually fun to play a light. I mostly ran the Raven 3L to handle lagging enemy lights so that my team would not need to worry about them as much.

It's much harder to run around without being noticed when everyone on the enemy team can spot you at 800m, and all the enemy lights swarm onto you as soon as you're spotted (since no ECM means they can relay your position).
It's gotten to the point where if there are 3 or more lights on my team I won't scout, as the second I'm spotted chances are I'll have at least 1 ECM streak-toting light on me within seconds. If 2 show up I may as well quit the match unless there's a teammate nearby, but I don't know where my team is because I'm under ECM.

If the entire enemy team is assaults and heavies, I can generally pick one or two off, if they're alone, and none of the rest notice me before I'm done, and it's not a decent pilot with a brawl loadout.

I stopped playing a Jenner during lagshield/after collisions because it felt too much like easymode, it's not easymode anymore, trust me.

[Zylo]

One Medic Army, on 07 February 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

It's much harder to run around without being noticed when everyone on the enemy team can spot you at 800m, and all the enemy lights swarm onto you as soon as you're spotted (since no ECM means they can relay your position).
It's gotten to the point where if there are 3 or more lights on my team I won't scout, as the second I'm spotted chances are I'll have at least 1 ECM streak-toting light on me within seconds. If 2 show up I may as well quit the match unless there's a teammate nearby, but I don't know where my team is because I'm under ECM.

If the entire enemy team is assaults and heavies, I can generally pick one or two off, if they're alone, and none of the rest notice me before I'm done, and it's not a decent pilot with a brawl loadout.

I stopped playing a Jenner during lagshield/after collisions because it felt too much like easymode, it's not easymode anymore, trust me.

Being spotted at a distance is mostly due to the small maps and thermal vision.

Running off alone is dangerous for any light. A lone Raven 3L can just as easily run into multiple light mechs and be in trouble if only 1 of them has ECM. It's more about operating as a team now from what I have seen in both 4 and 8-man drops.

[Larkis]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

I think you are just bitter that your Jenner isn't the OP light anymore. I just enjoy seeing these Jenner pilots get what they deserve after months of being the only light worth playing.

Ah thats the point. Your crying that the jenner was op (and indeed it was a long time, dont making fun playing a Jennr cause its to easy) and know you using Op Mechs to stomp your old enemy and are afraid that you get your payback.

[MoPo]

I don't pilot lights but I do use Streaks and, I have to say, the turn rate on them is a bit comical.

Running a CN9, I very rarely see the missiles I'm firing from my torso, because I've locked on with my arm reticle and the target's usually to my side, so the missiles flying out sharply to the side.

How to fix it?

• As I understand, the 100% hit is due to the missiles themselves locking on (fire and forget, unlike LRMs), so have the lock work from the mounted location (within, say, 45 degrees in any direction).
  
• If you have SSRMs in torso and arms, only the missiles within the arc of the lock would fire . So, you're locking with your arm reticle. If the lock is within the Torso's arc, everything fires, if not, only the arm missiles fire (so no need for separate locks).
  
• Launch the missiles in the direction that location's facing and limit the turn rate of the missiles (it can still be tight, for instance 540 degrees per second).
  
• Make the missiles only keep lock if the target stays within the 90 degree arc. If they lose lock, they'll fly in a straight line until collision or range-limit (no re-lock, or we're heading into Swarm LRM territory).

Using Harmin's dogfighting example, a good light pilot still has a (small) chance to out-turn them (as a RL pilot would try to do), breaking lock, but the overall mechanic still makes them a viable weapon against small, fast moving targets.