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Please Fix The Ssrm2 Bug Asap.


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#201 Suki

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:39 AM

View PostRat of the Legion Vega, on 07 February 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:


No, he's talking about light vs. light battles, not heavy vs. lights. Collisions being in or not has no impact on the potency of streaks because one light isn't going to deliberately crash into another in a one on one battle. There would be no point.

Streaks will continue to be by far the most broken and overpowered lights vs. light weapon until PGI steps in and fixes them. But I and many others have been complaining about streaks for months now and nothing has been done yet.

The presence of streaks as they are now ruins the light versus light gameplay in Mechwarrior. Anyone with half a brain can see that. Streaks are the worst thing about this entire game.

.

With the current broken netcode - Lights are the worst thing about this entire game. And anyone without a brain can see it.

#202 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:05 AM

View PostSuki, on 08 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

With the current broken netcode - Lights are the worst thing about this entire game. And anyone without a brain can see it.



Good thing they fixed that netcode issue then, huh?

#203 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:10 AM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 08 February 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:


The same reason you hate on ECM? -_- The problem I, and I think most light pilots, have with SSRMs isn't that they're homing missiles, we get that. It's that they are so easy to use that they more or less remove pilot skill from the light vs light equation for a huge bracket of players.



Tbh, I assumed you were. How is it?

I don't "hate on" ECM. I point out that Guardian is working like an OP Angel. Then I drop in game and shoot the crap out of ECM carrying Mechs as often as I do Non ECM carriers. *shrug*

#204 Inveramsay

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:13 AM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 08 February 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:


SSRM2 has the same damage as an SRM2. And yes, I know you mean the SRM4, and no you don't balance a Small Pulse Laser by comparing it to a Medium Laser. SSRM4/6 will be around sooner or later, you think the RVN-3L and COM-2D pilots won't upgrade? (Or the Clan equivalent if they're Clantech.)

Never mind the fact that there shouldn't be one 'must have' light chassis in the game. A heirarchy of Jenner = awesome, Streakboat = adequate, All Else = joke is not going to make for an entertaining light mech end of gameplay.



I run my Jenner D a lot at the moment, it is simply so much more fun than using the 3L despite the 3L clearly being the better mech in terms of consistent damage. I consider myself to be a pretty good light pilot and if there is a single ECM mech be it commando or raven I'm not worried unless I'm very damaged. This is in pubbing mind you. The single most effective tactic to defeating them is simply to fight back and fight back hard. Being relentlessly shot at makes most pub 3Ls run and then it is more a case of hanging on to them which usually isn't the problem as I have more manoeuvrability and speed. The problem is that the SRMs are useless against running lights unless they stop or you're right behind them. With the massive engine I don't have space for more than two tonnes of SRM ammo either so I can't just spray it about and therefore end up using the lasers for light killing duties and SRMs for blasting into the face or back of bigger and slower mechs. With the jump jets and speed you can often outmanoeuvre the 3L so he can't effectively use his SSRMs.

To balance the SSRMs I think they just need to start missing a bit more, basically a short range version of the current LRMs, otherwise they are pretty fine

#205 MechWarrior849305

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:14 AM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 08 February 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Good thing they fixed that netcode issue then, huh?

Seems to me, he wasn't playing the game for the last few weeks -_-

But, I suppose, this thread was about QQing, that "ECM+SSRMs" is OP by now in any Light vs Light fight, not about "All those *** lights are OP" :unsure:

Well, I have both jenners and 3L to compare. And only one sentence comes to mind: "You are a d**n green newb, if you can't get lock for those SSRMs to kill every single light mech ^_^ ". I quit playing it, haven't even started to master it. For now I play only jenners, since they DO require skill.

#206 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:17 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 08 February 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

I don't "hate on" ECM. I point out that Guardian is working like an OP Angel. Then I drop in game and shoot the crap out of ECM carrying Mechs as often as I do Non ECM carriers. *shrug*


My point was that that's my attitude to the SSRM. I still play the game, I still engage (and kill) SSRM users. I'm just pointing out that they need downtuning.

#207 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:21 AM

View PostGaan Cathal, on 08 February 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:


My point was that that's my attitude to the SSRM. I still play the game, I still engage (and kill) SSRM users. I'm just pointing out that they need downtuning.

From my watching spectator mode... They are not a problem. I see Mechs shooting salvo after salvo after salvo into lights and up and it takes forever to drop even a Raven or Jenner.

#208 Stargoat

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:32 AM

I'd like it if streaks lost a bit of their speed and/or turning ability, so that a quick pilot could 'dodge' the missile with a well-timed change in direction, as they can with LRMs. Missiles shouldn't be able to turn on a dime.

#209 KKillian

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:54 AM

Really? Is it even needed to debate that close range autolock weapons that dont miss are an issue in an online game?

#210 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:56 AM

View PostKKillian, on 08 February 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Really? Is it even needed to debate that close range autolock weapons that dont miss are an issue in an online game?

But they do Miss. I have seen it happen.

#211 Suki

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:10 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 08 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

But they do Miss. I have seen it happen.

They do miss, they are taken down by AMS.
But there's one big problem. People almost entirely stopped using AMS. It's so much fun today using missiles corse of the people stupidity.

View PostDuoAngel, on 08 February 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Seems to me, he wasn't playing the game for the last few weeks :(

But, I suppose, this thread was about QQing, that "ECM+SSRMs" is OP by now in any Light vs Light fight, not about "All those *** lights are OP" ;)

Well, I have both jenners and 3L to compare. And only one sentence comes to mind: "You are a d**n green newb, if you can't get lock for those SSRMs to kill every single light mech ;) ". I quit playing it, haven't even started to master it. For now I play only jenners, since they DO require skill.

Tired of brawling. Last 2 weeks I'm LRM-boating.

#212 KKillian

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:16 PM

View PostSuki, on 08 February 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

They do miss, they are taken down by AMS.
But there's one big problem. People almost entirely stopped using AMS. It's so much fun today using missiles corse of the people stupidity.


Tired of brawling. Last 2 weeks I'm LRM-boating.

I run AMS on all my Jenners, it does nothing against close range streaks. Maybe if the guy is 200m+ away it has a chance to take 1 out but it certainly isnt going to save you. 2 missles should be trivial for AMS to deal with, yet it does nothing to save me. The only chance I have against a 3L or 2D is to smash them directly with 2 SRM4+A lotta hope, I wouldnt lower myself to streak missles even if their ECM didnt block them.

#213 One Medic Army

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:18 PM

View PostKKillian, on 08 February 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

I run AMS on all my Jenners, it does nothing against close range streaks. Maybe if the guy is 200m+ away it has a chance to take 1 out but it certainly isnt going to save you. 2 missles should be trivial for AMS to deal with, yet it does nothing to save me. The only chance I have against a 3L or 2D is to smash them directly with 2 SRM4+A lotta hope, I wouldnt lower myself to streak missles even if their ECM didnt block them.

The problem has to do with SSRM speed and how long it takes an AMS to actually kill a missile.
One of the devs posted the details somewhere, but I seem to recall that it takes like 200m to kill one streak missile.

#214 SVK Puskin

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:19 PM

View PostLarkis, on 07 February 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Hello Devs,

actuall there is a huge problem with SSRM2 which destroy every Light-Gameplay.

I'm a Jenner pilot. I pilot it since i get in the founder closed beta. a play it a long long time and i love it. But actuall there is a huge problem which destory every Light-Gameplay.

Let me explain the problems.

1. Aiming
In MWO there are 2 Crosshairs, one for arms and one for the torso. You could put Weapons in both but firing there together needs a little bit skill. if you are a light you mostly must only care about the arm weapons, cause the torso is to slow to turn. But the SSRM2 use the same Arm crosshair. I played a most time against SSRM2 boats and i still played sometimes as a SSRM2 Commando. its still true. I made some pictures to explain:

http://www.apload.de...19490bpr2pl.png

This is a typical situation in a cycle of Death of 2 Light mechs. In most of this cylces you only can use the arm weapons cause of the limits of the torso movement you cant turn it around fast enough. You see on the picture, the arm crosshair is on the side, maybe 90° whly the torso is still looking forward. But you only need the arm Crosshair to still lockon the Torso weapons.

With every other weapon i must snycron the two croshairs to fire all weapons. But not with SSRM2. Thats the first unbalanced problem.

2. Missile Movement
The second problem is the Misile Movement. Missiles are a weapon based on hard ammunition. There are Launchers in the Arms and Torso which are firing the rockets. The launches are fixed and cannot move. Lets loock back to the situation in the cycle of death.

http://www.apload.de...19491bxntgh.png

Again we see the commando. The position of the enemy mech is marked with the blue cycle. You also can see the fixed rocketlaunchers. The pink lines show the points where the weapons target. The arm launcher easily can hit me, no problem with this. Lock on the Torso weapon. This launcher is aiming a lot away from me. And Rockets are weapons with a Main thruster and smal control-plaetes on there back side. Yes they are able to turn, but cause of the speed of the trhsuter and the small plates, they only can turn in a curve. But actually, (you see it on the graphics as a red line, the rockets will leave the launcher turn in 90° angle at this positions and then fire the maintrust and hit. So the rockets make a move which is really impossible to do.
In reality a misxile starts, must fly a few seconds to build up speed and only then the missle can change direction. But in MWo the missile starts, change direction and than fire the main trhuster. I know MWo is not Reality but i never read that there are magic missiles wich ignore every law of physic.

3. Missile Movement and Modules


With 1 and 2 it's very hard to avoid the SSRM2 from another light. But sometimes i get the chance to move out of the range of the armcrosshair. And for this, we got 2 Modules:

First:
360 Target. - You are able to tracking Enemys behind you.

Second:
Target Decay - Still Lock on a Target which is out of your range for a few seconds.

So with both modules you are able to target the enemy light even if he is out of target range and behind you.

And know this happens:
http://www.apload.de...19492bwj5zl.png

The armlauncher do the magic thing i explained in missile movement. But the torso launcher is really a great hudini. First the rocket makes a turnaround. And then they fly Trough the Torso to hit the enemy behind the light.


And what that means for the fight?

Lets say im a Jenner. I have 3 Medium Pulse Laser and i full with Double heatsinks. I make with an Alpha 18 Damage. The Raven-L for Example make 15 Damage with the SSRM2. The SSRM2 reloads faster than the MPL. So i must hit with every target the center Torso of the Raven with an alpha only to have a little chance against the raven. In this time the raven must only lock on the enemy one time, hold them in lock and hold the finger brainafk on the weaponbutton. After a few alphas the jenner lost the damagerace cause of overheating. The Raven never overheat with the SSRm2. The Jenner does. But ther Raven not only have SSRM2. They also have Lasers ect. So there is no way to win against a Raven-L. They have the armor like a jenner, they have the same Speed but have much more weapons and not so much problems to fight with it. You need no skill and no heat managment to get the kills.

So actuall as a Light you MUST use SSRM2 to have a chance. Without SSRM2 you are a freekill for every other light. And here is anopther problem, SSRM2 Commando/Raven with ECM. Very nice, the only weapon which is a danger for the SSRm2-Ligh can be countered easily only install a ECM.

So there are only 2 Light mechs actual which are usable. Raven-L and Commander 2D. Every other Light is a freekill for this mechs. And i see the problem only on the SSRm2 and the buggy movement. So please fix this. :(


You are wrong, Raven - 3L has 2 missile hardpoints which means 10 demage if you have 2 SSRM2!

#215 MischiefSC

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:25 PM

Simple example of ECM + SSRM issues.

4x 3Ls vs 4x, well, whatever you want. Atlases, Cataphracts, pick it. Put 4x 3Ls with ECM and SSRMS grouped in teamspeak against 4 other mechs of your choice with loadout of your choice grouped in teamspeak.

Who's got the advantage?

At this point you've got enough focused SSRM fire to deal with, well, anything. Unless they're fighting 4x D-DC atlases with ECM and SSRM of their own and thus can match 4 to 4 the ECM of the Ravens and SSRM back, well it's pretty one sided.

Missile balance and ECM is broken. Badly, badly broken. SSRMs, LRMs and ECM.

ECM should block Artemis, TAG, NARC and BAP as well as C3 when it's out. They should make SSRMs fire like regular SRMs within their radius. It should be available for any/every mech.

SRMs should do 2 points per missile.

LRMs should do 1 point per missile but fly faster.

No more missile boat builds being quite as effective. Useful as support yes but not so cripplingly effective. ECM no longer a huge force-multiplier for premade teams. Let teamwork be its own reward, don't twist the game mechanics to try and give it an extra buff. If you can't win on the benefits of teamwork alone but need game mechanics tweaked to OP missiles when balanced with ECM then you have bigger problems.

Stealth armor for light mechs a completely separate thing, covering only the mech using it.

There we go. Fixed.

If only it would happen this particular QQ would go away.

#216 MechWarrior849305

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

View PostOne Medic Army, on 08 February 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

The problem has to do with SSRM speed and how long it takes an AMS to actually kill a missile.
One of the devs posted the details somewhere, but I seem to recall that it takes like 200m to kill one streak missile.

So, with 300m range of a SSRM you can 100% hit at least one missile with guaranteed 2.5 dmg pts, and as far ALL lights fights ALWAYS go at ranges 50-150m, AMS does absolutely nothing to counter SSRM. I always use AMS on jenner, yet for anti-LRM purposes only.
Nerfing 3L will do nothing - it will only shift the problem of using SSRMs onto other light. More lights are supposed to come in the future. So, are you sure,that there will not be the other one "3L"?
More SSRMs are supposed to come in the future - 4x, 6x. They will do much more damage. And there will be only those "3L"s, no other light chassis.
The problem is a tracking system of guided missiles, nowhere else.

#217 PYR0MANCER

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:19 PM

I agree with the OP on the firing arc issue but the lock-on mechanic seems fine to me... It's the firing that's the issue...

In TT (Yes, yes I know...) the whole idea behind the auto hit wasn't that they were "Fire and Forget" missles (If I myself understand it correctly, I am no scholar on the issue)... They were "I won't fire unless you can hit" missles...


TT and video game blah blah blah!!!


This one actually could work out right...


Have the ssrm's fire out straight for just a moment before they begin to turn, just a second or less... Add in that they won't fire at all unless the target is in a certain arc of the reticule while having arm and torso mounted ssrm's use the different reticules to determine arc... That way they fire in a realistic manner and they act like they would in TT and won't waste your ammo if the target is not within the weapons arc of fire...

This way some amount of skill comes into play when firing them and you won't waste any ammo if you don't have a shot (In some cases it could mean an arm ssrm firing and a torso one not because its not in it's arc)... It also gives the enemy some wiggle room when maneuvering to try and get out of the arc of fire...

A happy medium for all..?

Edited by Tyros the Pyromancer, 08 February 2013 - 02:20 PM.


#218 Vlad Ward

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:39 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 08 February 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Simple example of ECM + SSRM issues.

4x 3Ls vs 4x, well, whatever you want. Atlases, Cataphracts, pick it. Put 4x 3Ls with ECM and SSRMS grouped in teamspeak against 4 other mechs of your choice with loadout of your choice grouped in teamspeak.

Who's got the advantage?

At this point you've got enough focused SSRM fire to deal with, well, anything. Unless they're fighting 4x D-DC atlases with ECM and SSRM of their own and thus can match 4 to 4 the ECM of the Ravens and SSRM back, well it's pretty one sided.


You will only ever see people getting dominated in this fashion in PUG play. Anyone currently inhabiting the 8v8 queue (and not crying about it) is more than capable of slapping a Raven in the face at 0-270m. Hell, I still find a lot of the more mediocre 8v8 Raven pilots get smashed long outside their maximum range because they failed to effectively utilize cover (eg, any Raven who thinks it's a good idea to skirmish in the water in River City).

Netcode is fixed and ECM doesn't stop bullets and all that.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 08 February 2013 - 02:40 PM.


#219 MischiefSC

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:50 PM

I kill 3Ls individually all the time. Drop with 4 of them. Are they more or less difficult than, say, 4x jenner pilots of the same skill?

You're trying to conflate a tiny, tiny sliver of the games population (how long is the average 8v8 queue again) with some sort of balance. I could probably say the same thing of clan tech. Drop 4 mechs with clan ERPPCs in a 8v8 match and I'm sure some enterprising individuals will find a way to work out a tactic to deal with the fact that they are, indeed, utterly out of balance with everything else in play and have to be address accordingly.

Your argument borders on a strawman. The question isn't some abstract 'can you beat this' but instead 'is this comparable with everything else in game?' That is what 'balanced' is in reference to in this case.

I watched premade teams of skilled individuals get destroyed by this twice today. It's certainly possible that 8v8 teams practicing how to deal with this can do so - the whole concept is that they should be able to deal with anything, right? That is an irrelevant observation however when talking about game balance.

You are attempting to conflate 'some people in some circumstances with the right team and the right training and the right loadout can deal with this' with 'is this balanced on par with all other weapons and items and mechs in the game'.

These are two different things.

I refer to my original post at #215. That is balanced. Attempting to justify imbalance in the way you're implying is almost a reductio ad absurdum. I respect your opinion but please consider that balance needs to stand on its own regardless of player skill. Two players of like skill no matter how high or low in otherwise balanced kit should be matched. If they are not then the problem lies with the games balance of equipment, not the players.

Edited by MischiefSC, 08 February 2013 - 02:51 PM.


#220 Kyone Akashi

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:30 PM

View PostTyros the Pyromancer, on 08 February 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

In TT (Yes, yes I know...) the whole idea behind the auto hit wasn't that they were "Fire and Forget" missles (If I myself understand it correctly, I am no scholar on the issue)... They were "I won't fire unless you can hit" missles...
That's what I believed at first as well (some descriptions made it sound like that), but upon further reading of the actual books I actually found this:


"Streak short-range missiles, with their ability to conserve ammo by using a targeting laser for the missiles to home in on, were rediscovered by the Free Worlds League in 3055 and the other nations in 3040. [...] In addition to the specialized electronics of the targeting system, the missiles require built-in guidance technology and power sources, doubling the cost of ammunition compared to a standard SRM."
- ER3052, page 100, Missile Technology

"Developed as a means of conserving ammunition, the Streak system literally refuses to fire unless all of the launcher's tubes simultaneously achieve a 'hard lock' on their target."
- Tech Manual, page 230

View PostTyros the Pyromancer, on 08 February 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

TT and video game blah blah blah!!!
This one actually could work out right...
I too think that it would be better for balancing if ECM as well as SSRMs would work closer to how they function in the TT.

This includes Streak SRMs having to re-acquire target lock after every single salvo, rather than just keeping it forever.

I agree with adjusting missile turn radius as well, though. Just because the current method is "a bit" unrealistic.





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