238 replies to this topic

[Skadi]

Codejack, on 08 February 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Try playing the game; now that we talk after a round, I see constant complaints about it.

i just took down 2 commandos with my 4 SRM6's, still having little issues hitting lights, one every so often survives a shot, its usualy a Raven or Jenner.

[StalaggtIKE]

Skadi, on 08 February 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

i just took down 2 commandos with my 4 SRM6's, still having little issues hitting lights, one every so often survives a shot, its usualy a Raven or Jenner.

No offense, but how do you miss with a Splatcat? I can see why you'd love ECM; LRM ate Splatcats for breakfast.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 February 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[Codejack]

Skadi, on 08 February 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

i just took down 2 commandos with my 4 SRM6's, still having little issues hitting lights, one every so often survives a shot, its usualy a Raven or Jenner.

Good for you; let's see if I can explain this in even smaller words:

IT DOES NOT SEEM TO WORK THE SAME FOR EVERYONE.

[Skadi]

StalaggtIKE, on 08 February 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

No offense, but how do you miss with a Splatcat? I can see why you'd love ECM; LRM ate Splatcats for breakfast.

actualy i dont own any cats besides the founders, my 8R Awesome uses 4 SRM6's, LL, and a ML.
He got within 70M and i instakilled one of them, the other took note, got injured from my SRM's and i finished him with lasers, im used to being able to PPC them as well as AC(what ever AC i happen to be using) them to death with many of my builds.

[Codejack]

StalaggtIKE, on 08 February 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

No offense, but how do you miss with a Splatcat? I can see why you'd love ECM; LRM ate Splatcats for breakfast.

Easy; watch your target teleport 2 inches across your screen in between the time you hit the button and the time the game actually decides to fire.

[StalaggtIKE]

Skadi, on 08 February 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

actualy i dont own any cats besides the founders, my 8R Awesome uses 4 SRM6's, LL, and a ML.
He got within 70M and i instakilled one of them, the other took note, got injured from my SRM's and i finished him with lasers, im used to being able to PPC them as well as AC(what ever AC i happen to be using) them to death with many of my builds.

Perhaps you should try a Splatcat. You'd find it easier.

Codejack, on 08 February 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Easy; watch your target teleport 2 inches across your screen in between the time you hit the button and the time the game actually decides to fire.

But, no. He doesn't experience lagshield, so apparently it doesn't exist.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 February 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[ExAstris]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 08 February 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

The folks at PGI have done a wonderful job so far and are continuing to improve the game, despite a community that seems to be full of venom and hate for them. If you do not like this game, and you did say you were quitting so I don't know why you are still here, then please move along and find a game that you like. You should try Eve Online, I don't think they have ECM there.

EVE has ECM, and unlike PGI, CCP actually took to modeling their ECM after its real world counterpart with at least a lick of believability. EVE also has full on cloaking devices, and again, CCP knows how to make them balanced and what sorts of (horrendous) drawbacks are needed to make stealth a viable feature in a competative pvp game.


Anyways, the vast majority of this ECM thread is misguided. ECM isn't broken because it doesn't line up with TT. I have little-to-no allegience to the original TT, and am willing to chuck it on a moments notice if it makes MWO a better game. If we merely wanted a simulation of TT, then the only people we would be serving are TT players, not gamers. MWO has already diverged from TT in dozens of ways, and just about every one of them has made MWO a better game (hardpoints, engine restrictions, model scaling, torso twist variations, engine availability on non-mech-tonnage intervals, innumerable weapon tweaks, double armor, etc, etc).

That said, it just so happens in this particular case, that a few of PGI's departures from TT are the key sources of imbalance in the ECM implimentation. The addition of aoe-stealth and missile-lock negation being the two features that make it so problematic, and of those two, the former is truely the greatest hinderance to balanced gameplay. So it isn't because its different from TT that its aweful, its for a whole host of reasons that aren't being discussed here. But those key features are the main ones that need thrown out, its merely coincidence that doing so makes ECM more like it was in TT.


EDIT: And generally yes, I think PGI is doing a great job with this game. ECM being the only major exception to that rule. And while these boards are often filled with rage-like posts, its because we want a better game, just like you do, just like PGI does. We just think that a few tweaks would go a long way towards that improvement, and as they say, 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease'.

Edited by ExAstris, 08 February 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[Skadi]

StalaggtIKE, on 08 February 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Perhaps you should try a Splatcat. You'd find it easier.



But, no. He doesn't experience lagshield, so apparently it doesn't exist.

i never said it doesnt exsist, i said its not nearly as common as he makes it out to be, he is trying to make it look like its the old lagshield epidemic where you had to lead 2 meters ahead normal, against ALL lights...

And of course i would find a splatt cat easier, there jokes to pilot, ill pass on buying one...

Edited by Skadi, 08 February 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[Yiazmat]

Codejack, on 08 February 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Then you don't understand the netcode/lagshield issue; it has never had anything to do with location, bandwidth, ping, etc.

Edit: While I was typing this, I was launching into a round; after I hit post, I was covering the upper base/sniping in river city and a Jenner just plain appeared out of nowhere in front of me. He just teleported in and I saw the "base being captured" message before he actually showed up on the screen.

That's not lag, that's called an exploite/bug. There are a few of them PGI hasnt fixed yet.

[StalaggtIKE]

Skadi, on 08 February 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

i never said it doesnt exsist, i said its not nearly as common as he makes it out to be, he is trying to make it look like its the old lagshield epidemic where you had to lead 2 meters ahead normal, against ALL lights...

And of course i would find a splatt cat easier, there jokes to pilot, ill pass on buying one...

Yeah, I exaggerated a bit, however it was to prove a point. Your experience, in no form or fashion, governs his experience. If it's working for you, GREAT, but be understanding that some may not be having desired results.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 February 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Codejack]

Yiazmat, on 08 February 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

That's not lag, that's called an exploite/bug. There are a few of them PGI hasnt fixed yet.

Then it is separate from the lagshield/teleporting issue, which is still alive and well.

[Hikyuu]

Honestly I just need to add my two cents here.

in MW4, the game prior to this, ECM reduced your radar footprint to 250m. meaning that they had to be ontop of you to see you on radar.

in here, it's 180. albeit closer, the game currently has a more close quarters map setup than MW4, it makes sense to me.

both devices at that point did the same thing, mechs with ECM jammed up enemy sensors.

the only difference is the MWO one jams sensors in a bubble format for a useful support tool used by light mechs to cloak fast movers and brawlers.

functionally, this has two drawbacks:

-you have to be squeezed together and move together

-your light mech has to move at your speed, too far out and the jammer is useless.

there's also an unintended side effect of ECM, ECM jams up ECM.

so if the enemy has a light mech close, they can flip to counter, and completely counter their ECM, causing the enemy to light up on the battlefield. this is an excellent form of tactical espionage.

Null Sig would be impervious to this; Null signature would make it impossible to target the enemy unit at all on radar. Stealth Armor does that.

just because sensor jamming is a great way to get past kids that don't think to keep a head on a swivel or a team that refuses to even properly communicate. doesn't make it OP. as soon as another ECM is in the mix, ECM becomes less effective

ECM is also less effective exponentially, and marginally degrades in usefulness after 2 or 3. ergo an entire team wouldn't take ECM, whereas an entire team would take a gauss rifle on each mech (if provided an opportunity).

it's balanced, you just don't like that the mechanics are too difficult for you to get around, I'm sure the first Boss in the NES 'Ninja Gaiden' had you writing a dirty letter too.

[StalaggtIKE]

Hikyuu, on 08 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Honestly I just need to add my two cents here.

in MW4, the game prior to this, ECM reduced your radar footprint to 250m. meaning that they had to be ontop of you to see you on radar.

in here, it's 180. albeit closer, the game currently has a more close quarters map setup than MW4, it makes sense to me.

both devices at that point did the same thing, mechs with ECM jammed up enemy sensors.

I don't know about this. From what I heard and read MW4 was like the ******* child of the MW franchise. I didn't pay it any mind.

Quote

the only difference is the MWO one jams sensors in a bubble format for a useful support tool used by light mechs to cloak fast movers and brawlers.

functionally, this has two drawbacks:

-you have to be squeezed together and move together

-your light mech has to move at your speed, too far out and the jammer is useless.

No you just stay with the D-DC. Which is beneficial to the Atlas as he needs someone to watch his rear.

Quote

there's also an unintended side effect of ECM, ECM jams up ECM.

so if the enemy has a light mech close, they can flip to counter, and completely counter their ECM, causing the enemy to light up on the battlefield. this is an excellent form of tactical espionage.

No. This is ECM's only true counter. How is that balanced? Imagine scissors beat rock, paper..., and scissors! What's the point..., pick SCISSORS! This means the more ECM the merrier. Because ECM stacks!

Quote

Null Sig would be impervious to this; Null signature would make it impossible to target the enemy unit at all on radar. Stealth Armor does that.

Null Sig and Stealth armor were balanced; They produced heat and also took up 6 crits. Any crit gets damaged and the whole system is deactivated.

Quote

just because sensor jamming is a great way to get past kids that don't think to keep a head on a swivel or a team that refuses to even properly communicate. doesn't make it OP. as soon as another ECM is in the mix, ECM becomes less effective

Yes, because everyone have time to jump on TS just to get around a 1.5 ton device. ECM is a great way to tell new players to **** off! If you're new here, you better have friends from day one or you're getting stomped. Let's see how long MWO last at this rate.

Quote

ECM is also less effective exponentially, and marginally degrades in usefulness after 2 or 3. ergo an entire team wouldn't take ECM, whereas an entire team would take a gauss rifle on each mech (if provided an opportunity).

Quite the opposite. More ECM means less likely to be countered, because they overlap. That's common sense.

Quote

it's balanced, you just don't like that the mechanics are too difficult for you to get around, I'm sure the first Boss in the NES 'Ninja Gaiden' had you writing a dirty letter too.

Actually, I often use ECM because there are no drawbacks. All those pros for a 1.5 ton device. It's as light as a streak missile or BAP and considerably better. The reason it's unbalanced is because it has too many pros and no cons.

The part about the NG boss was pretty funny. I was a Shinobi fan.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 February 2013 - 07:42 PM.

[Codejack]

Hikyuu, on 08 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

it's balanced, you just don't like that the mechanics are too difficult for you to get around, I'm sure the first Boss in the NES 'Ninja Gaiden' had you writing a dirty letter too.

No, that's not the problem.

The problem is that it makes the game less fun.

P.S. I beat Ninja Gaiden in one day

[Daggett]

ExAstris, on 08 February 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Anyways, the vast majority of this ECM thread is misguided. ECM isn't broken because it doesn't line up with TT. I have little-to-no allegience to the original TT, and am willing to chuck it on a moments notice if it makes MWO a better game. If we merely wanted a simulation of TT, then the only people we would be serving are TT players, not gamers. MWO has already diverged from TT in dozens of ways, and just about every one of them has made MWO a better game (hardpoints, engine restrictions, model scaling, torso twist variations, engine availability on non-mech-tonnage intervals, innumerable weapon tweaks, double armor, etc, etc).

That said, it just so happens in this particular case, that a few of PGI's departures from TT are the key sources of imbalance in the ECM implimentation. The addition of aoe-stealth and missile-lock negation being the two features that make it so problematic, and of those two, the former is truely the greatest hinderance to balanced gameplay. So it isn't because its different from TT that its aweful, its for a whole host of reasons that aren't being discussed here. But those key features are the main ones that need thrown out, its merely coincidence that doing so makes ECM more like it was in TT.


EDIT: And generally yes, I think PGI is doing a great job with this game. ECM being the only major exception to that rule. And while these boards are often filled with rage-like posts, its because we want a better game, just like you do, just like PGI does. We just think that a few tweaks would go a long way towards that improvement, and as they say, 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease'.

Sir, you totally nailed it.

I would like to make one addition:
It is not only the Aoe-'Stealth', that makes ECM too strong in my opinion, its the additional radar disruption inside the bubble too.
Both combined are very powerful on their own and should not be a free bonus on an already powerful system with nearly nonexistent cost/drawback.

For example one or two ECM-ravens can isolate a single mech even if his whole team is only 300m away. All it needs is a visual obstruction like a small hill or a building. Suddently his team will never see his distress. Been there and done that several times. And text-chatting to send an SOS with position is quite problematic when fired upon.

And a single ECM-Light can cause total chaos even in a team with a voiced premade.
When inside the bubble you suddently don't know where your team is, where they are moving and if they need help.
Additionally the enemy main force can pop up from any angle because you need to detect them with your own eyes.
Edit: Uhh, and the often hyped TAG to counter ECM is totally useless inside the bubble. Great counter when it can be countered by the system it is intended to counter...

Of cause an organized team can handle this total theft of map-awareness, but it is the fact that all this is cramped together with LRM/Streak immunity in a tiny 1,5t package without drawbacks what makes this system so ridiculous overpowered. And of cause the inability to be coordinated in pure PUG-games when map-awareness is stolen.

And because it has absolutely no drawbacks but lots of uses, and can only be effectively countered by itself it is of cause an auto-include in every mech that can carry it. And it doesn't take a great game designer to know that a system which is an auto-include in every build and that trumps ALL other alternatives (like e.g. BAP) is ALWAYS overpowered.

If AOE-Stealth, Radar disruption and Streak/LRM Counter were separate systems with appropiate drawbacks each, we wouldn't have this gigantic discussion all over the board...

And one last note to all who say: "Adapt and use skill to deal with ECM".
This is no valid point. Human beings can adapt to everything. We can outsmart anything.
BUT being able to deal with something does not make it less imbalanced.

To bring a more tactile example:
Imagine a box fight where your opponent has brass knuckles and you have to use normal boxing gloves.
Of cause you can outskill and outsmart your opponent and win the fight. And it will feel great for you.
But the fight was still unfair and other boxers with less godlike skill will of cause be disadvantaged and have all right to be upset.

And when your opponent with the Knuckles/ECM is at least as smart as you are, he will counter your skill with his own and beats you with his equipment advantage.

Edited by Daggett, 08 February 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Daggett, on 08 February 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

And one last note to all who say: "Adapt and use skill to deal with ECM".
This is no valid point. Human beings can adapt to everything. We can outsmart anything.
BUT being able to deal with something does not make it less imbalanced.

To bring a more tactile example:
Imagine a box fight where your opponent has brass knuckles and you have to use normal boxing gloves.
Of cause you can outskill and outsmart your opponent and win the fight. And it will feel great for you.
But the fight was still unfair and other boxers with less godlike skill will of cause be disadvantaged and have all right to be upset.

And when your opponent with the Knuckles/ECM is at least as smart as you are, he will counter your skill with his own and beats you with his equipment advantage.

I don't see how this is not completely obvious to everyone.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 February 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[Eddrick]

Daggett, on 08 February 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

And a single ECM-Light can cause total chaos even in a team with a voiced premade.
When inside the bubble you suddently don't know where your team is, where they are moving and if they need help.
Additionally the enemy main force can pop up from any angle because you need to detect them with your own eyes.
Edit: Uhh, and the often hyped TAG to counter ECM is totally useless inside the bubble. Great counter when it can be countered by the system it is intended to counter...

Bloodhound Active Probe (An upgraded version of the Beagle Active Probe) is not effected by the Guardian ECM Suit. Produced in 3058. However, later on the Angle ECM suit (Upgraded version of the Guardian ECM Suit) is made that blocks the Bloodhound Active Probe. Which, swings balance back in the other direction it was.

Daggett, on 08 February 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

And one last note to all who say: "Adapt and use skill to deal with ECM".
This is no valid point. Human beings can adapt to everything. We can outsmart anything.
BUT being able to deal with something does not make it less imbalanced.

This part, I can't argue against.

I can't think of any game (Combat Flight Simulator or MechWarrior) were ECM didn't make life difficult for the person on the receiving end. It is possible to negate the effects by not depending on your Sensors to begin with. However, can't deny that, this still puts the person at an advantage. Just because they don't have to try as hard.

[INSEkT L0GIC]

Hikyuu, on 08 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Honestly I just need to add my two cents here.

in MW4, the game prior to this, ECM reduced your radar footprint to 250m. meaning that they had to be ontop of you to see you on radar.

in here, it's 180. albeit closer, the game currently has a more close quarters map setup than MW4, it makes sense to me.

both devices at that point did the same thing, mechs with ECM jammed up enemy sensors.

the only difference is the MWO one jams sensors in a bubble format for a useful support tool used by light mechs to cloak fast movers and brawlers.

functionally, this has two drawbacks:

-you have to be squeezed together and move together

-your light mech has to move at your speed, too far out and the jammer is useless.

there's also an unintended side effect of ECM, ECM jams up ECM.

so if the enemy has a light mech close, they can flip to counter, and completely counter their ECM, causing the enemy to light up on the battlefield. this is an excellent form of tactical espionage.

Null Sig would be impervious to this; Null signature would make it impossible to target the enemy unit at all on radar. Stealth Armor does that.

just because sensor jamming is a great way to get past kids that don't think to keep a head on a swivel or a team that refuses to even properly communicate. doesn't make it OP. as soon as another ECM is in the mix, ECM becomes less effective

ECM is also less effective exponentially, and marginally degrades in usefulness after 2 or 3. ergo an entire team wouldn't take ECM, whereas an entire team would take a gauss rifle on each mech (if provided an opportunity).

it's balanced, you just don't like that the mechanics are too difficult for you to get around, I'm sure the first Boss in the NES 'Ninja Gaiden' had you writing a dirty letter too.

I'd also like to mention here that in MW4 nearly all ranges were increased from their TT values.

I have a feeling once we get the large maps the impact of ECM won't mean as much as with these small maps we are currently using, unless MWO extends them, too.

Edit: Also, when collision comes back you'll have less mechs willing to pack themselves into that ECM bubble, too.

Edited by INSEkT L0GIC, 08 February 2013 - 10:33 PM.

[Eddrick]

INSEkT L0GIC, on 08 February 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

I'd also like to mention here that in MW4 nearly all ranges were increased from their TT values.

Speaking of MW4

MechWarrior 4 version is ECM is very easy on people.

Stealth and ECM in the Combat Flight Simulaters I have played is not very differant from what we have now. Only differance is what happens in the bubble to friendlies.

ECM in Armored Core is a joke because it is somthing you drop and it doesn't move.

INSEkT L0GIC, on 08 February 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

Edit: Also, when collision comes back you'll have less mechs willing to pack themselves into that ECM bubble, too.

Artillery should bring that to a stop, too. People will not like taking splash damage at the cost of staying in the ECM bubble

Edit: Stealth and ECM are two differant things. But, they do work well together.

Edited by Eddrick, 08 February 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[Mibman]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 08 February 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

The folks at PGI have done a wonderful job so far and are continuing to improve the game, despite a community that seems to be full of venom and hate for them. If you do not like this game, and you did say you were quitting so I don't know why you are still here, then please move along and find a game that you like. You should try Eve Online, I don't think they have ECM there.

I agree with you. But... Eve Online has a ECM system. You target ships and JAM their targeting systems for about 20 seconds. When it was implemented, the community was being outraged becaus ECM was OP. Now they are used to it and it´s fine.

BTT: I don´t understand the problem to copy a tabletop game 1 to 1 into a computer game seems really hard. In my opinion PGI did a great job of capturing the feel of the lore, if you know what I mean. I almost feel like I am in one of the novels. Also keep in mind, that this is still a BETA, so there will be changes. And in my humble opinion the game is really great. The most fun I had playing a new game in the last year, if you find some friends to play with you it is just plane awesome.

my 2 CB

EDIT says: There are also cloaking devices in E:O which prevent targeting and visual contact of your ship!!

Edited by Mibman, 09 February 2013 - 12:41 AM.