238 replies to this topic

[Codejack]

SixStringSamurai, on 10 February 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Complains about lag shield. Pilots K2 armed with 2xAC20s and 2xMedium Lasers.

That's one, yea; I also shot a shut down Atlas in the back 3 times in it last night. Then he turned around and killed me.

Guess what? Driving a COM-2D gets boring.

[SixstringSamurai]

My point was you complaining about "lag shields" then you pilot a mech that requires pinpoint accuracy, that would actually make taking down a lagging light mech harder. Also I thought you hated the game, PGI, and thought it was dying? Yet there you are yesterday stomping around in a K2 rather terribly.

[Codejack]

SixStringSamurai, on 10 February 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

My point was you complaining about "lag shields" then you pilot a mech that requires pinpoint accuracy, that would actually make taking down a lagging light mech harder. Also I thought you hated the game, PGI, and thought it was dying? Yet there you are yesterday stomping around in a K2 rather terribly.

1) Anything that doesn't require pinpoint accuracy doesn't work against ECM, anymore.

2) I consider the "game" to be something you are forced to go through to continue playing with the mechlab.

3) You're telling me that I am a bad player when THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING I CAN DO WHEN THE LAG IS BAD?!


Seriously, what weapons should I take? You tell me. Lasers and ballistics don't hit; LRMs and SSRMs don't work against ECM; SRMs are a little better, but I dropped 324 of them into an Atlas earlier, all of which (appeared) to hit and 2 to the back before he even noticed, and after he killed me the end of round screen said 371 damage.

So why don't you go ********************.

[SixstringSamurai]

Codejack, on 10 February 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

1) Anything that doesn't require pinpoint accuracy doesn't work against ECM, anymore.

2) I consider the "game" to be something you are forced to go through to continue playing with the mechlab.

3) You're telling me that I am a bad player when THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING I CAN DO WHEN THE LAG IS BAD?!


Seriously, what weapons should I take? You tell me. Lasers and ballistics don't hit; LRMs and SSRMs don't work against ECM; SRMs are a little better, but I dropped 324 of them into an Atlas earlier, all of which (appeared) to hit and 2 to the back before he even noticed, and after he killed me the end of round screen said 371 damage.

So why don't you go ********************.

I checked you ping in game too. It was below 70. I'd say it was your system but I'm on a rig with 4GB Ram, 450 GTS, Core 2 DUO that was made in 2008 and I maintain a K/D over 2.20 and a W/L over 3/1. So really I think your just bad at this and your campaign to make everyone think the game is terrible and broken needs to stop.

Edited by SixStringSamurai, 10 February 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[Codejack]

SixStringSamurai, on 10 February 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I checked you ping in game too. It was below 70. I'd say it was your system but I'm on a rig with 4GB Ram, 450 GTS, Core 2 DUO that was made in 2008 and I maintain a K/D over 2.20 and a W/L over 3/1. So really I think your just bad at this and your campaign to make everyone think the game is terrible and broken needs to stop.

So, because YOU don't have a problem, it doesn't exist? Nice!

Screw you, dude, and welcome to my ignore list.

[SixstringSamurai]

Codejack, on 10 February 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

So, because YOU don't have a problem, it doesn't exist? Nice!

Screw you, dude, and welcome to my ignore list.

I watched you play, I saw nothing that indicated you were having any lag issues. I also love how your answer to anyone who doesn't agree with you and calls you on your crap gets added to your ignore list.

Edited by SixStringSamurai, 10 February 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[Tyrist]

I don't know about you guys, but I have been reading the books and there is nothing about an ecm working for a group of mechs. That it only helps to slow down targeting for LRM and SSRM. It has been that way in all previous games (I didn't play LL so please if you have info on that let me know). While my playing has adapted since reading the books, I still don't understand how weapons and systems that are supposed to be the pinnacle of firepower just do so little damage. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

[SixstringSamurai]

Tyrist, on 10 February 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

I don't know about you guys, but I have been reading the books and there is nothing about an ecm working for a group of mechs. That it only helps to slow down targeting for LRM and SSRM. It has been that way in all previous games (I didn't play LL so please if you have info on that let me know). While my playing has adapted since reading the books, I still don't understand how weapons and systems that are supposed to be the pinnacle of firepower just do so little damage. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes ECM function is not in anyway near what it should be.

Weapons are at TT values (for the most part), yet they doubled the armor values of mechs. If they didn't a mech that had torso armor of 40 now would be annihilated from a single AC20 shot. While that's how it should be since the weapon is supposed to knock down most mechs it hits, on a fun and playable factor it would stink if everyone was just walking around in one shot wonders. Look at people complaining about AC20 Cats and SRM6 boats now. Imagine if weapons were scaled up now with armor. At least that way you get some sort of fight out of the game.

[n0e]

SixStringSamurai, on 10 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

At least that way you get some sort of fight out of the game.

[lagshield][ecm]Can't hit me! Can't hit me! [/ecm][/lagshield]

[Tyrist]

You have a valid point. Although at the same time, it would become more intense and make you think instead of just running down and blasting away at the enemy. I don't know maybe I am jaded by the books or something lol.

[Codejack]

Tyrist, on 10 February 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

I don't know about you guys, but I have been reading the books and there is nothing about an ecm working for a group of mechs. That it only helps to slow down targeting for LRM and SSRM. It has been that way in all previous games (I didn't play LL so please if you have info on that let me know). While my playing has adapted since reading the books, I still don't understand how weapons and systems that are supposed to be the pinnacle of firepower just do so little damage. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Yea, the game is hideously unbalanced and everyone who is not just a vicious troll admits it.

[SixstringSamurai]

Tyrist, on 10 February 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

You have a valid point. Although at the same time, it would become more intense and make you think instead of just running down and blasting away at the enemy. I don't know maybe I am jaded by the books or something lol.

Honestly I think the system they have now would be better served by bigger maps. Most of the problems with ECM is that the small distance you have to react to it even with TAG, makes it over powered.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Codejack, on 10 February 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Yea, the game is hideously unbalanced and everyone who is not just a vicious troll admits it.

So basically your argument comes down to, I am right and everyone who disagrees is a bad person.
How eloquent.

No wonder you can't find anyone to drop with you.

[Codejack]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 10 February 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

So basically your argument comes down to, I am right and everyone who disagrees is a bad person.
How eloquent.

I didn't make any value judgments, but of course I think I'm right; if I didn't, I would change my mind.

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 10 February 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

No wonder you can't find anyone to drop with you.

Because all my friends already moved on to another game?

[SixstringSamurai]

He has one friend according to his profile, they have a lot in common....

[Koniving]

While it's clear the original poster is a bit compromised (angry, biased) here, I do agree with this to a certain extent.

Consider this: If ECM = Stealth for group, then what is the point of stealth armor?

People don't want to waste 1.5 tons on AMS. Why? ECM covers the whole group.

Most 8 man groups that go to drop insist everyone brings their own ECM. This really ruins a game as it limits us to what, 5 mechs? DDC, Cicada, Raven 3-L, Commando 2-D.....Spider? o.O!!!! It ruins the strategy of the game.

For the most part it's fine how it is working. ECM jams locks at close range? Great. It's a good way to deal with missile boats.

ECM prevents tag? Great. Good way to neutralize both missile boats and scouts from pointing out enemies.

ECM counters ECM? Sure, why not. This way a single set of missile boats can streak each other to their hearts content. But that encourages them to be in large packs!

ECM makes long range targeting and locks impossible? I think that breaks one of the three fundamentals of your original design scheme: Reducing circle strafing and sniping through the use of highly dense urban environments. Remember that one? The advent of an ECM cloaking device encourages both of those things.

Why not consider lock on speed reductions instead, combined with LRM accuracy reductions? Seems to be implied from the rule book. Even better, it reduces the effectiveness of LRMs and Streaks without having to

A ) Remove one of the key elements of the game: Scouting -- which now has no benefit if the scout does not both sport ECM and missiles.

B ) Rendering the upcoming stealth armor completely worthless.

Yes, ECM is pretty good but it's the one stop shop. You don't see any reason to use any other variant of the ECM capable mechs. They always have the better hardpoints. What reason would I have to try AMS? Laser AMS? To use skill to evade missiles and break locks? What reason might I have to use stealth armor when ECM provides stealth?

It's like having a game full of urban mechs with a single small laser each, and then throwing in a single invisible Atlas with a hitbox the size of a sports car with 900% torso twist speed, aimbot, and machine guns that do 1900000000000000 dps and generate no heat. And then saying the only counter is another one of itself, or a dinky laser pointer that doesn't do any damage but provides you with the comfort of a 7 second lock on time for missiles. "C'mon, c'mon, almost there, almost got that lock." Rat tat tat tat. "Sonuva!!!! C'mon!"

To be honest I'm terrified as to what might happen with the stealth armor. What exactly are you going to do if this is what you treat Guardian ECM as? You can't give stealth armor the same benefits of ECM otherwise it won't be stealth armor, it will be ECM on the haul instead of in a box. But that means you can't have stealth armor provide any sort of stealth.... Something's just a little off here.

When the more powerful Angel ECM comes out.... what's it going to do? Render the whole team transparent? Predator cloaks?

If you go that far, do I at least get the cool triangular targeting reticle and predator noises?

Maybe some heat vision that doesn't imply that River City is as cold as ice and that doesn't imply 'cool' Battlemechs in Caustic Valley are colder than human flesh? (In other words, make heat vision harder to use by adding some 'heat' to the environment in addition to all the smoke. Not every ground surface is minus 300 degrees k and therefore should not warrant temperatures of blue and black.

Caustic Valley's surface appears to be the same color as that representing 72 degrees F on most thermal imaging cameras.

I'd hate to say it, but during the day in Florida and on much cooler summer days than Caustic Valley is seeing, the ground averages high 80's and as high as in the early 100's in the sand. That's deserving of at least yellows, light oranges.

But that's another aesthetic that could help in the future and a separate thing altogether.

You've done some good work, P.G.I., but it'd be nice if a little thinking ahead is done. ECM and stealth armor should not be the same thing. Same with ECM and AMS.

Edited by Koniving, 10 February 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[ExAstris]

Noth, on 10 February 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Actually multiplayer gaming and just dropping in with strangers has proven to be ridiculously successful. Therefor I believe the majority of gamers are in fact, not like you.

This isn't a counter-argument. Yes, the vast majority of multiplayer games involve dropping with random people. But the vast majority also do not require that you form a group of good players before dropping in order to be successful in those games. Call of Duty has such mass appeal because you can both 'drop' solo into any match and have reasonable expectations of it being a fair fight, and can drop in with a bunch of your buddies to play together. Sure, on rare occassions you get steamrolled by a great team, but the vast majority of players are going in solo or with one or two of their real-life friends. And heck, I played EVE for actively for over 4 years and never joined a player corp and was highly successful. That game encourages group play, but it isn't required, there are dozens of solo occupations in EVE.

MWO just has the problem of having an unusually large proportion of hardcore fans that are use to playing in highly organized teams. So one out of 10 drops is a full 8man, instead of most games where its probably more like 1/50 or less. The only reason this is a problem is because MWO keeps getting balanced as if we were all playing the 8man drops with 3rd party VOIP (or at least 4man with VOIP), but still, the vast majority of players aren't playing that game. They're solo dropping (or in smaller groups), yet they're playing under conditions that presume pre-organized team play. The game could be balanced for both, but its not.

SixStringSamurai, on 10 February 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I checked you ping in game too. It was below 70. I'd say it was your system but I'm on a rig with 4GB Ram, 450 GTS, Core 2 DUO that was made in 2008 and I maintain a K/D over 2.20 and a W/L over 3/1. So really I think your just bad at this and your campaign to make everyone think the game is terrible and broken needs to stop.

These are the stats of someone who drops in premades all the time. No one soloing has a win/loss over 2:1, one person just can't matter that much in MWO. That also makes your K/D difficult to judge because every drop you do in a group nets you a far lower chance of dying. I on the other hand do over 95% of my drops solo, have a win/lose ratio of only 1.62 but a K/D over 3.4 to 1 (with no cheese d/c or whatever it is kids do to pad that, thats just the result of me playing exclusively mediums and heavy mechs, I don't even own an assault).

So be careful who you use the skill argument on. You may be a better player than Codejack, but that doesn't make you right. My stats say I'm a BA and I know the pug game is being borked by ECM's current implimentation. But I'm not right because I'm good. Then there are players even better than me with their own opinion going one way or the other.


Basic fact of the matter is that in PUGs, the team with more ECM has their chances to win massively increased. Best solutions involve nerfing ECM and/or normalizing the information warfare load across all mechs instead of just the few variants the ECM gods smile upon.

If that means ECM isn't worth taking in coordinated 8mans, then so be it, add it to the list of items that are useless at the most competative levels, but at least it won't be wrecking the other 9/10 drops in MWO.

Edited by ExAstris, 10 February 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[WinningOne]

I'm surprised to see this thread because I think ECM is awesome. I love that LRM boating and sniping requires more than sitting on a hill wating for scouts to get LOS on a target. I really like knowing I have to take walking through high cover areas seriously now and that I have to check around the corners instead of marching through like a blind cow. I also like knowing that players are having to put more thought into their loadout than "How can I shoehorn another ton of LRM's into this beast?!". Sure, sometimes people sneak up on me but if I'm not paying attention and they get there then good for them. Bottom line, for me ECM made the game a lot more fun because it made the enemy more dangerous.

[Codejack]

WinningOne, on 10 February 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

I'm surprised to see this thread because I think ECM is awesome. I love that LRM boating and sniping requires more than sitting on a hill wating for scouts to get LOS on a target. I really like knowing I have to take walking through high cover areas seriously now and that I have to check around the corners instead of marching through like a blind cow. I also like knowing that players are having to put more thought into their loadout than "How can I shoehorn another ton of LRM's into this beast?!". Sure, sometimes people sneak up on me but if I'm not paying attention and they get there then good for them. Bottom line, for me ECM made the game a lot more fun because it made the enemy more dangerous.

http://mwomercs.com/...ture-aftermath/

You are in the minority.

I submit to you that if you like this game and want it to succeed, you should put aside your own opinion and think about what the majority of the playerbase wants.

Edited by Codejack, 10 February 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Eddrick]

Koniving, on 10 February 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Why not consider lock on speed reductions instead, combined with LRM accuracy reductions? Seems to be implied from the rule book. Even better, it reduces the effectiveness of LRMs and Streaks without having to

A ) Remove one of the key elements of the game: Scouting -- which now has no benefit if the scout does not both sport ECM and missiles.

Why does a Scout NEED missiles?

Koniving, on 10 February 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

B ) Rendering the upcoming stealth armor completely worthless.

To be honest I'm terrified as to what might happen with the stealth armor. What exactly are you going to do if this is what you treat Guardian ECM as? You can't give stealth armor the same benefits of ECM otherwise it won't be stealth armor, it will be ECM on the haul instead of in a box. But that means you can't have stealth armor provide any sort of stealth.... Something's just a little off here.

This part bothers me a little, too. If ECM already grants stealth. Then, what should Stealth Armor grant? Otherwise, there is no point in even considering adding Stealth Armor.