205 replies to this topic

[Shard Phoenix]

JUST SHOOT THE EARS, TEE HEE!

[Termius]

I really wish there was a easy fix for the Splat-pult problem. If there was it would be done already, but until PGI hopefully finds a balanced fix for the issue we're stuck with it.

On a different point SRM-pults crumble under combined fire like any other mech. Coordination = Victory

[Ghogiel]

Termius, on 10 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

On a different point SRM-pults crumble under combined fire like any other mech. Coordination = Victory

On a different point, Splatcats crumble any other mech without the need for combined fire. Steak Sauce = Victory

[valkyrie]

Escef, on 10 February 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

What about Butterbee?

Butterbee uses 4, not 6 SRM6s. Additionally, I haven't seen any details regarding Butterbee's engine rating, and we all know TT damage spread and torso twist values are way, way different than in MWO.

[Wolfways]

The non-ECM mechs players complain about (the most):

6xSRM6 Catapult
6xPPC Stalker.
2xAC20 Catapult.

What do they have in common? High Alpha damage.
Maybe the main problem is Alpha strikes?

[Gammanoob]

Team Leader, on 09 February 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

Buying A1 tomorrow. Sorry world.

Same here, saving up for a Catapult A1 to make into an SRM Catapult in order to improve the game.

[Escef]

valkyrie, on 10 February 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Butterbee uses 4, not 6 SRM6s. Additionally, I haven't seen any details regarding Butterbee's engine rating, and we all know TT damage spread and torso twist values are way, way different than in MWO.

IIRC, Butterbee uses the stock 260 engine, retains the 4 medium lasers, default heat sinks, and carries 4 tons of SRM ammo. Also, Table top has half the armor/structure ratings as MWO. Those were doubled to protract combat. In order to compensate for this, ballistics have had their shots/ton increased, missiles do more damage (but still not the equal of what they do in table top). Some energy weapons have had their damage and heat output tweaked (large lasers and PPCs). Heat sinks tend not to disperse as much heat. The heat penalty is rather binary (shut down or ok, no degraded performance). And weapons have recycle times reminiscent of the Solaris 7 dueling rules.

MWO is its own game, and table top is great for source material, but I've been told the devs have already said that the important part is to keep MWO functioning well, and if adherence to table top needs to be sacrificed, well, then that's the cost.

[Sifright]

Termius, on 10 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I really wish there was a easy fix for the Splat-pult problem. If there was it would be done already, but until PGI hopefully finds a balanced fix for the issue we're stuck with it.

On a different point SRM-pults crumble under combined fire like any other mech. Coordination = Victory

good thing SRM mechs can't do that.

Hey guys SRMS aren't over powered just make sure you have 3 or 4 more mechs to help take him down.

I forgot we were playing a battle value game where the SRM6 Cat being brought to a match means we are outnumbered.

[Vassago Rain]

Sifright, on 10 February 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

good thing SRM mechs can't do that.

Hey guys SRMS aren't over powered just make sure you have 3 or 4 more mechs to help take him down.

I forgot we were playing a battle value game where the SRM6 Cat being brought to a match means we are outnumbered.

Even if they had that ported, the SRM mech is still a cheaper unit.

[Sifright]

Vassago Rain, on 10 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Even if they had that ported, the SRM mech is still a cheaper unit.

I figure PGI stating that SRMS are working as intended means they want SRM6 to be the equivalent BV of an AC20

[Escef]

Sifright, on 10 February 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I figure PGI stating that SRMS are working as intended means they want SRM6 to be the equivalent BV of an AC20

Well, 14 tons of SRM launcher gets you 28 tubes, which is more than twice the damage of an AC20, and fits in 9 crits (with more flexible placement options). But at 100 missiles a ton, you are getting less than 4 shots/ton of ammo. You are also looking at more heat than a pair of PPCs. Also, the AC20 can engage at ranges beyond 270m, which the SRMs cannot. SRMs tend to spread their damage out, AC20s, not.

Comparing a battery of SRMs to an AC20 is an odd comparison. Both weapons are close range brawler weapons, but have very little in common beyond that.

[LaserAngel]

Wolfways, on 10 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

The non-ECM mechs players complain about (the most):

6xSRM6 Catapult
6xPPC Stalker.
2xAC20 Catapult.

What do they have in common? High Alpha damage.
Maybe the main problem is Alpha strikes?

This goes all the way back to heat dissipation and Double Heat Sinks. Additional heat sinks increase your heat capacity along with dissipation. These builds didn't exist under Single Heat Sinks. It has taken this long to make heavy energy weapons more viable but the other side is that it makes Small/Medium Laser builds too good while punishing heavy mechs with heavy energy weapons.

Increased dissipation would allow all those heatsinks to be more effective while not allowing a HUGE cap to let you shoot 6 PPCs without instantly overheating to shutdown. Even in table top it's very hard to use more than 3-4 ER PPCs.

Edited by LaserAngel, 10 February 2013 - 02:27 PM.

[Escef]

LaserAngel, on 10 February 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

This goes all the way back to heat dissipation and Double Heat Sinks. Additional heat sinks increase your heat capacity along with dissipation. These builds didn't exist under Single Heat Sinks. It has taken this long to make heavy energy weapons more viable but the other side is that it makes Small/Medium Laser builds too good while punishing heavy mechs with heavy energy weapons.

Increased dissipation would allow all those heatsinks to be more effective while not allowing a HUGE cap to let you shoot 6 PPCs without instantly overheating to shutdown. Even in table top it's very hard to use more than 3-4 ER PPCs.

We see the same thing in table top. Double heat sinks make large numbers of small weapons incredibly viable. Combine this with maps that feature a lot of confined spaces (what in table top is referred to as "fighting in a phone booth" or "on a postage stamp") and things get out of hand.

Edited by Escef, 10 February 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[Infernus1986]

Wolfways, on 10 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

The non-ECM mechs players complain about (the most):

6xSRM6 Catapult
6xPPC Stalker.
2xAC20 Catapult.

What do they have in common? High Alpha damage.
Maybe the main problem is Alpha strikes?

why do people ***** about alpha strikes i have 8 buttons on my mouse unless they make it impossible to fire more then one weapon at a time im still going to alpha strike an kill you in one hit
Must be the same people that where saying how chain fire is op

Edited by Infernus1986, 10 February 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[Wolfways]

Infernus1986, on 10 February 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

why do people ***** about alpha strikes i have 8 buttons on my mouse unless they make it impossible to fire more then one weapon at a time im still going to alpha strike an kill you in one hit

I'd prefer it if the game wasn't that boring.
Although i don't use mechs with a high Alpha anyway.

[Stormwolf]

valkyrie, on 10 February 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Butterbee uses 4, not 6 SRM6s. Additionally, I haven't seen any details regarding Butterbee's engine rating, and we all know TT damage spread and torso twist values are way, way different than in MWO.

It's got a 260 rated engine.

Here's the full sheet for the Butterbee for the people who are curious (note that armor levels have been doubled in MWO):

Quote

Catapult CPLT-C1 (Jenny) "Butterbee"

Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Introductory
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/X-E-D
Production Year: 3027
Cost: 5.641.625 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1.242

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43,2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64,8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
4 SRM-6s
4 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 104 points 6,50
Engine: Fusion Engine 260 13,50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT 4,00
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 15 5,00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 HD, 2 LL, 2 RL
Gyro: Standard 3,00
Cockpit: Standard 3,00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 160 10,00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 24
Center Torso (rear) 11
L/R Torso 15 19
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 10 13
L/R Leg 15 18

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2,00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1,00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1,00
2 SRM-6s RA 8 4 6,00
2 SRM-6s LA 8 4 6,00
@SRM-6 (30) RT - 2 2,00
@SRM-6 (30) LT - 2 2,00
Free Critical Slots: 26

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 5 Points: 12
4j 2 2 0 0 3 0 Structure: 5
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, SRM 2/2/0

[Sean Lang]

Interesting how 99.9% of this thread has nothing to do with NGNG. It is just being used as a staging point to discuss the OP's agenda.

Edit: which is fine, discussion on such topics is always good! Just interesting that the OP choose that particular subject line.

Edited by Sean Lang, 10 February 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[Omigir]

What does any of this have to do with NGNG?

[Escef]

Omigir, on 10 February 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

What does any of this have to do with NGNG?

I guess in one of their casts they failed to embrace the idea that the SRMcat is the bestest mech in the game and will ruin things for all eternity.

[Gremlich Johns]

I say limit the catapults to standard engines that only permit them to reach the canon 65 kph.