55 replies to this topic

[Kyone Akashi]

Karl Streiger, on 15 February 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

I knew that there were 75% abuser...but you can simple turn it. 10-20% of RnR has to be payed out of your fund - after you have done this - other costs are paid by your BattleMech Insurance Agency.

The abuse happened simply because it was possible - it was always an option to tweak the system in a way that would counter it. For example by simply not allowing you to drop if you still had damage and the c-bills to repair it, and by not awarding any XP but only c-bills if you drop with a damaged 'Mech.
Also, in terms of ammunition all you'd get is a single ton of the most basic ammo such as standard missiles or cannon slugs. No Artemis, no SSRMs, no Narc. Want more or special ammo? Pay for it. Want more c-bills? Play the damn game.

Oh well. I am going to miss RnR - felt a bit more immersive, plus people actually had to consider economy a bit.

[Lokust Davion]

QuantumButler, on 10 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

The only MW games that had RnR are the Mercenaries titles, 2 titles, compared to all the MW games that DIDN'T, just on the PC alone.

Mechwarrior 1 - don't know, didn't play, but IIRC I don't think it has RnR.
Mechwarrior 2 31st century combat - No RnR
Mechwarrior 2: Ghost Bear's Legacy - No RnR
Mechwarrior 3 & Pirate's Moon - No RnR, but salvage.
Mechwarrior 4 Vengeance - no RnR
Mechwarrior 4 Black Knight - no RnR

Sorry, repairs are actually not in line with the typical Mechwarrior experience, stop asking for what amounts to an income tax.

cause RnR is copied from WoT.

[Karl Streiger]

Lokust Davion, on 15 February 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

cause RnR is copied from WoT.

well in WoT where you hardly have the choice of what equipment you take it was indeed more like a tax.
In MWO however repair and rearm cost are another balancing issue... you want to have a cheese build... pay for it not just for building it - even for maintain it. I really think that coolant should be refilled after a battle too.

[Ralgas]

Lokust Davion, on 15 February 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

cause RnR is copied from WoT.

The original 1989 mw1 did have RnR, however you were also forfilling high c-bill contracts as well(via profomace over a series of drops). It all has the same problem though, getting repeatedly stomped can cause having to restart the game (stuck in trial mechs?)

[Craftyman]

will not happen.

[Teralitha]

RNR was bad for the game, the devs realized it, took it out. There are other ways to to create risk that are not exploitable. They have been suggested, perhaps l;ater one of those ideas will be implemented. But the RNR as we knew it, is gone for good. And it was for the best.

[Fooooo]

I wouldn't put it past having some kind of repair or rearm or upkeep costs etc for mercenary corps. (all tied into CW)

Once the ability to "found" (create) them in-game exists that is........

For houses , lone wolves, repairs etc will most likely not return.

Edited by Fooooo, 15 February 2013 - 02:56 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

I don't think that balancing by cost is a good idea.

Lokust Davion, on 15 February 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

cause RnR is copied from WoT.

Which copied it from MPBT, which copied it from whatever games had it before.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 15 February 2013 - 02:54 AM.

[Warskull]

Fitzbattleaxe, on 10 February 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

The problem with RnR is that it'll discourage teamwork in random drops - if you have to pay repair costs, no one will want to be the first to poke their head over the ridge, scout, etc. On the other hand, it would nice if there were some encouragement for people to use cheaper mechs, so we'd see more variety in matches. Maybe an XP bonus if the value of your mech is less than the average for that chassis? It would be an interesting challenge for people.

This man has the correct answer. RnR is terrible, because it doesn't work very well in random groups. It punishes players for randomly drawing worthless teammates. It punishes players who play aggressively and try to win in a random group. Someone has to go in first and lead the noobs.

If you want to encourage medium mechs, run events. Medium mechs gain +X% cbills and +X% experience for a week.

RnR discourages people from playing unless they know it will be profitable. Discouraging people from playing is bad for a game.

Edited by Warskull, 15 February 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[DaZur]

Sigh... It's true, unless someone has an epiphany as to how to implement it in a way that it can't be gamed/abused, apparently it will not be re-introduced.

There were a number of positive aspect of it, not the least of which being a repercussion mechanism but alas apparently the cons outweighed the pros.

[Gregory Owen]

i feel exactly the opposite, we should not pay for repair but we should be paying for re-arming and ammo should be a consumable

[Sigifrid]

It is regrettable that it was removed, seeing as it gave cause for many players to actually be careful about how they fight (and not waste ammo or charge blindly). The devs really should have not given any free RnR when it was implemented; however they should have kept the cost at the level it was at (that is, the 25% that you had to pay for was the cost of the entire rearm bill).

Edited by Sigifrid, 15 February 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[Clay Pigeon]

If they brought back limited repair, but no rearm I could live with it, I guess. They would have to up match rewards for winning, though, to compensate for the repair costs.

Edited by Clay Pigeon, 15 February 2013 - 08:37 AM.

[Kurshuk]

QuantumButler, on 10 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

The only MW games that had RnR are the Mercenaries titles, 2 titles, compared to all the MW games that DIDN'T, just on the PC alone.

Mechwarrior 1 - don't know, didn't play, but IIRC I don't think it has RnR.
Mechwarrior 2 31st century combat - No RnR
Mechwarrior 2: Ghost Bear's Legacy - No RnR
Mechwarrior 3 & Pirate's Moon - No RnR, but salvage.
Mechwarrior 4 Vengeance - no RnR
Mechwarrior 4 Black Knight - no RnR

Sorry, repairs are actually not in line with the typical Mechwarrior experience, stop asking for what amounts to an income tax.

I agree completely. We should have a drop fee based on what's being deployed instead of an income tax. The point is that running high end equipment should have a cbill cost that extends past the initial purchase. Those amounts can be tweaked and shown on every item as an additional stat. That way you balance the cost of deployment with the expected performance during the match. If cost is greater, you change the mech or learn to be more effecient. That way R&R is applied evenly to the playerbase and not just the losing side.

Kurshuk

[Roland]

Adding in repair would be good, if they did it correctly... but that's a big if.

I agree with the idea of leaving re-arming costs out of the game though. It ended up just furthering the advantage of energy weapons over ballistics. "Hey buddy! You get to pay extra money for the privilege of carrying a box of explosives into battle that will kill you if you get hot or it gets shot! Have fun!"

Repair costs, coupled with large salvage bonuses, really did add something good to the game. When you killed some super expensive mech, it was nice to know you were gonna get a nice fat payday out of it.

But they would really need to address the issues that were in place when they removed it, because as it was before, it punished new players quite a lot.

[Helbourne]

QuantumButler, on 10 February 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

Quoth this week's ask the devs

Wrong, RnR is never coming back.

Life has a habit of kicking those that say never.

What is all this talk about income taxs in this thread? I thought everyone must pay their fare share these days.

Edited by Helbourne, 15 February 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Mackman]

Karl Streiger, on 15 February 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

Have to push it again.
Costs are a balancing factor.

When people does AFK or suicide rushes with Trial Mechs and no RnR - heck than they should do this. But for better balancing we need the RNR.

Simple example a Awesome - with 4 LRM 20 and TAG and Artemis can cause a lot of havoc... as long as he has enough ammunition - so while you are hardly able to beat that mech - when he choose the right terrain.

But you will beat that mech because of logistics. You will beat that "bad" design because all the rearm costs will eat away the income - and even more.

A RnR in place will help balancing the game. I knew that there were 75% abuser...but you can simple turn it.
10-20% of RnR has to be payed out of your fund - after you have done this - other costs are paid by your BattleMech Insurance Agency.

Forcing people to choose whether they want to make money or pilot an actually good mech is a terrible idea.

Allowing Premium-time players to pilot whatever the hell they want because they can afford it, whereas F2P players cannot, is a terrible idea

Using out-of-game costs to "balance" in-game weaponry is a terrible idea.

Get this through your head: THERE IS NO METAGAME RIGHT NOW. THERE IS NO "GAME" for RnR TO HAVE A SENSIBLE PLACE IN.

And that means that RnR is a terrible, terrible idea. All it amounts to is a tax to prevent players from having fun and piloting the mech they want to pilot.

RnR means that MWO actually contains two games.

• One game is MechWarrior Online, where you pilot big stompy robots and shoot people, and it's a whole lot of fun.
  
• 
  
• The other game is Small Business Owner Online, and you have to balance accounts and make sure you're not losing money and can afford to keep the lights on in your garage. And that game is only fun to a very, very small amount of people.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Hasn't it been categorically stated by Devs that it's not making a return?

[CDLord HHGD]

Advanced tech should cost more. There should also be a munitions cost as well.... Just IMO.

[Roland]

Quote

Forcing people to choose whether they want to make money or pilot an actually good mech is a terrible idea.

While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think it's actually a universally terrible idea.

Rewarding pilots who are able to make the most of a limited chassis is actually kind of cool.