73 replies to this topic

[Peter von Danzig]

Just to get things clear. I am not against capping at all. It can be a fine way to distract the enemy team. This thread is against that zero/zero-matches- Those happen less with other maps.

[Esplodin]

"Bravo Four and Charlie Two lances, this is command. Sat intel reports two enemy lances in your area approximately 1400 meters to your north/south right on top of evac zone Alpha two. No other hostiles are detected within a 12 click area. 45,000 civies are counting on that evac point to get off this rock before the enemy battle groups arrive. Hold that point or destroy the enemy with a quickness lance commanders - dropships inbound in 15. Good luck Bravo Four and Charlie Two lances."

I hear that every time I drop. Adds spice, and makes capping the base a real objective with real consequences.

[MischiefSC]

The battle of Tukayyid was a lie by the way. Clan forces overran and crushed ComStar forces right up until the end. Here is the true story of the great Battle of Tukayyid.



Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht looks over reports showing crushing losses among Com Guard units across every position, his grim features stoic as he measured up the results that would lead to his inevitable defeat and the fall of the Inner Sphere.

Suddenly an excited young soldier bursts in and salutes.

'Precentor Focht, the day is won!'

There is only a moments pause as a blinking and confused before furrowing his brow and directing his full and commanding attention to the bright faced young soldier.

'Well, report soldier! What happened, what are you talking about?'

The bright faced lad responded, nearly breathless in his excitement.

'When the Clan forces overwhelmed our position two Jenners managed to get away, Precentor! They ran around behind the Clan forces.... and stood on their cap point! It seems that the Clans are in fact a bunch of CoD nerds who learned all their fighting skills playing Xbox! That's why their twitch reflexes are so good. When we told them that we had stood on their base for 60 seconds, they surrendered unconditionally despite their vastly superior tactical position and firepower!'

Precentor Focht heaved a great sigh of relief as the weight of every free soul of the Inner Sphere lifted from his shoulders. They were saved. Saved, because the Clan was a bunch of Xbox playing CoD kiddies who didn't realize just how much base capture mechanics are utter and total crap.

[Bilbo]

MischiefSC, on 11 February 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

The battle of Tukayyid was a lie by the way. Clan forces overran and crushed ComStar forces right up until the end. Here is the true story of the great Battle of Tukayyid.



Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht looks over reports showing crushing losses among Com Guard units across every position, his grim features stoic as he measured up the results that would lead to his inevitable defeat and the fall of the Inner Sphere.

Suddenly an excited young soldier bursts in and salutes.

'Precentor Focht, the day is won!'

There is only a moments pause as a blinking and confused before furrowing his brow and directing his full and commanding attention to the bright faced young soldier.

'Well, report soldier! What happened, what are you talking about?'

The bright faced lad responded, nearly breathless in his excitement.

'When the Clan forces overwhelmed our position two Jenners managed to get away, Precentor! They ran around behind the Clan forces.... and stood on their cap point! It seems that the Clans are in fact a bunch of CoD nerds who learned all their fighting skills playing Xbox! That's why their twitch reflexes are so good. When we told them that we had stood on their base for 60 seconds, they surrendered unconditionally despite their vastly superior tactical position and firepower!'

Precentor Focht heaved a great sigh of relief as the weight of every free soul of the Inner Sphere lifted from his shoulders. They were saved. Saved, because the Clan was a bunch of Xbox playing CoD kiddies who didn't realize just how much base capture mechanics are utter and total crap.

If their tactical positioning was even mediocre, the Jenners would not have had 60 seconds to stand on their base.

[Esplodin]

MischiefSC, on 11 February 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

They lost, because the Clan was a bunch of Xbox playing CoD kiddies who didn't realize just how much base capture mechanics are a part of the game mechanics.

FIFY This isn't rockem sockem robots. It's not about the c-bills or xp. Defend your base like it is a win condition, because it is.

[Bunko]

Peter von Danzig, on 10 February 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

As I said in my previous post it's very hard to keep balance between fight and defending on some maps.

Balance. Balance in what mech you pick, what you put in a mech, and how you deploy on any map. That's the whole point of the game, maybe it's "very hard" at times but that's what makes it fun.

Peter von Danzig, on 10 February 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Take River City for an example: It doesn't matter if you take upper or lower city. If you are not that lucky to get into a fight, it's already to late.

Sounds like you drive a slow mech then... maybe try ditching some of those weapons and armor for something with a faster engine.

[MischiefSC]

Bilbo, on 11 February 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

If their tactical positioning was even mediocre, the Jenners would not have had 60 seconds to stand on their base.

The point being that it's not 'tactical positioning'. Not any more than capture the flag is tactical. The whole concept in BT is crap. Why not just play TF instead, or CoD if that's the 'tactics' you want?

[MischiefSC]

Esplodin, on 11 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

FIFY This isn't rockem sockem robots. It's not about the c-bills or xp. Defend your base like it is a win condition, because it is.

If it's a win condition then have it be something you have to finish before its over. The mechanic is goofy and pretty counter to battletech itself. It's not an FPS capture the flag game. If you like it that's great - battletech isn't for everyone. Just don't pretend that the base capture mechanic is anything other than goofy FPS mechanics shoehorned into the game, like pinpoint accuracy and the whole missile vs ECM balance.

[Turist0AT]

People need to realise that you dont need to race, you can stay and defend your base. Digg in and set up defence position. Ya?

[Tice Daurus]

I have to laugh at the OP's claims that people love to cap bases.

Here's the thing. This weekend, I must have led a bunch of PUG teams to go the long way around either taking the tunnel route in the ice maps or the cave route in forest maps or take the 3 line to cap a base.

I ran about 50 matches all weekend (slow weekend) and out of it instead of meeting people in the middle and fighting it out, I directed my team to cap and take alternate routes. When I asked everyone if they ran into people or I took a specific alternate route, at least 40 matches...they ran into NO ONE. Not one of them ran into people covering the outer runs or tunnel routes. And then when we quick capped the base, I got NOTHING but complaints from the other team about how LAME we were and that we were cowards and that we were afraid.

And yet we won every single match. People I will say this again and again and again...

A WIN IS A WIN IS A WIN. It doesn't matter if you kill them all or win via base cap or collect 750 for germanium. And if you are dumb enough to not cover a side entrance or send a scout mech to cover a side entrance and scout around, then you are dumb. And if you are PUG running a scout mech and you refuse to scout around the sides, you're dumb as well. Why? Because it's your job to scout around! It's that simple. If you leave yourself open to not cover a side route, and you get 3 or 4 mechs that slip on by and cap your base, you deserve to LOSE.

Also when you see BASE IS BEING CAPTURED in big bold letters and choose to ignore it by not having the scouts go back and check out the base, you deserve to lose. And if you don't see ANY MECHS and then see BASE IS BEING CAPTURED, you should darn well know several mechs snuck around to cap your base.

For the TL;DR people...

Don't be a dumbass and not cover the side routes. As a PUG ask a scout to check a side route. Or make it your designation to do so and then tell them if you've got mechs going a side route. And if someone base caps you, don't be a jerk and tell them they are dumb for capping the base, because they were obviously SMARTER than you to figure out to sneak around you while you stood there like a dumbass and did nothing.

[Peter von Danzig]

Turist0AT, on 11 February 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

People need to realise that you dont need to race, you can stay and defend your base. Digg in and set up defence position. Ya?

I played World of Tank right from the closed beta. There wa a counter of 15 minutes as well and many, many battles went a draw just because both sides stayed in base hoping to snipe the first tank that gous in line of sight.

I wish for us all that this is not ruing this game as well. As I said before being too defensive didn't go out fine in my expirience so far. BOTH teams digging in... well that would be a bigger desaster than base raced IMO.

[Elessar]

I can think of 3 ways to solve this problem:

1. The map is called Assault, therefore it would make sense to have it like some kind of Assault ... there is a central point in the middle of tbhe map and both teams have to assault it. Their bases don´t play a role. Battle ends if one of the teams has a battlemech stand on the place for a certain amount of time

2. One team has the misssion to "Assault" the other has the mission to "defend". Capture point is on the territory of the defenders. There is a single bar for this battle. Every time an assaulter stands on the capture point, the bar diminishes. Assaulters win if the bar goes down to zero, or if all defenders are dead. Defenders win if the bar is > 0when time runs out or if all attackeers are dead.

3. Bases can only be captured after half of the enemy mechs is destroyed


All of these methods would require combat in order to win the battle

[Esplodin]

MischiefSC, on 11 February 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Just don't pretend that the base capture mechanic is anything other than goofy FPS mechanics shoehorned into the game, like pinpoint accuracy and the whole missile vs ECM balance.

That goofy FPS mechanic has saved me from waiting out a 15 min timer because a light has powered down in some out of the way corner of the map. TT is different then live action, and needs some counters to griefing that a good GM would reach over the table and smack someone with blue bolts from heaven for.

As for the immersion factor, it's a win condition. If someone gets capped, then they failed strategically and tactically because those are the objectives of the map. All the rest is QQ for losing. The mission might look dumb to the grunts, but there could be a bigger plan. That small bit of silliness might be the lynchpin of the entire operation.

[MischiefSC]

Esplodin, on 11 February 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

That goofy FPS mechanic has saved me from waiting out a 15 min timer because a light has powered down in some out of the way corner of the map. TT is different then live action, and needs some counters to griefing that a good GM would reach over the table and smack someone with blue bolts from heaven for.

As for the immersion factor, it's a win condition. If someone gets capped, then they failed strategically and tactically because those are the objectives of the map. All the rest is QQ for losing. The mission might look dumb to the grunts, but there could be a bigger plan. That small bit of silliness might be the lynchpin of the entire operation.

So, again. Middle of the map, after 8 or 10 minutes have a position you can wait to cap to prevent someone forcing you to play hunt the light.

it is every bit as 'strategic and tactical' as having flags you capture to run back to your own base for points. That's the most vague use of the term but you can if you want to. If you have to pretend something to make it work then it's a failed mechanic.

Tactics would be positioning your snipers in an advantageous position to shoot the enemy when they move into the water. Strategy would be saying you're going to take the high ground and defend it or saying you're going to try and blitzkreig the enemy position.

Want to have an assault map? Have one position that one side defends and the other side attacks. There are a lot of ways to do it. Magical 'stand here and you win regardless' spots on the map are neither truly tactical or involve genuine military strategy. They're a mechanic designed for FPS games like CoD that lack any real depth on their own merit to try and keep it interesting.

No place in BT, they're crap. If you need to pretend that it somehow makes the game better then, well, good for you.

Want to have a caravan that needs defending as it goes point A to point B? An ammo dump that's capable of being destroyed that you either need to defend or attack depending on which side you drop on? A building that needs destroyed or protected?

These are all good options.

'Fight each other, or go stand here for 60 seconds if you don't want to fight' is not a real option.

How about this? Any of the above actual tactical options lend themselves towards the score but not the end of the match. You fight it out until one side is wiped out or after 8 or 10 minutes in there needs to be a 'the other guy ran away' location you stand at. Things like destroying ammo dumps or the like add to your score AND subtract from the other sides score but don't automatically win the match.

The base capping mechanic is crap. It may be official crap but that doesn't make it other than crap.

[Esplodin]

MischiefSC, on 11 February 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

it is every bit as 'strategic and tactical' as having flags you capture to run back to your own base for points. That's the most vague use of the term but you can if you want to. If you have to pretend something to make it work then it's a failed mechanic.

I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what the terms strategic and tactical actually mean. No insult, because few appreciate those words and what they signify. I'm former military, and trust me they have you do a lot stupider stuff that have non-obvious real world consequences. Is the base cap mechanic handwaivium? Completely. Is it frustrating to get out capped by 6 guys with capture assist modules loaded? You bet. However if your strategy does not include all win conditions, and your tactics are incapable of countering it, then that is straight up fail whether you like the mechanic or not.

[Mercules]

MischiefSC, on 11 February 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Precentor Focht heaved a great sigh of relief as the weight of every free soul of the Inner Sphere lifted from his shoulders. They were saved. Saved, because the Clan was a bunch of Xbox playing CoD kiddies who didn't realize just how much base capture mechanics are utter and total crap.

I love how you are completely okay with suspending belief as to why exactly two lances with matched "Weight Class" mechs have chosen to meet in a very limited engagement area and not go outside it or self destruct with no clear plan for withdrawal should things go south, no real communications, and a time limit on the engagement of 15 minutes... but not as to why holding a given piece of ground with X mechs for Y minutes will end the game simply because you don't like that part.

Just assume we are playing with the Commander rules in place and the location contains a Commander. Your marines need time to ferret him out and need a mech or more to keep the area clear of hostiles while they capture said commander.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 11 February 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Control and denial of useful locations has a tactical value. Having it just arbitrarily win the match in 1 minute regardless of combat positioning is not. Denying the enemy a good vantage or a way to flank you is good. Having your lights run to stand on a point because that's just how you win is a big steaming stupid pile of crap.

Base capping is crap. FPS, CoD crap. It belittles the entire BT franchise. Why not just have CTF matches, were you get to the enemy base and your mech gets a big flag on a pole coming up its back but moves more slowly. If you take the flag back to your own base your team scores a victory point!

Taking a position for tactical advantage is good. Having some arbitrary win/lose mechanic is crap.

You want to win? Destroy the enemy or force them to surrender/abandon the field. If after 10 minutes of the match and there are less than 3 enemies remaining you can stand on a central point and win in 1 minute. that's great.

Base capping as a win/loss mechanic though is utter CoD, xbox style FPS crap. It's no different than capturing flags for points and has nothing to do with battletech.

Not going back to defend your base when Betty tells you exactly where your enemy is, You fail. My Base was being captured, I helped eliminate the threat. went on to kill the rest of the team with my allie. over at the enemy base... That is how you play assault when someone tries to take your stuff. You punish him and the go on to make him pay even more.

Base Cappers only get a lame win when we are to lame to do what has to be done.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 February 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Esplodin, on 11 February 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what the terms strategic and tactical actually mean. No insult, because few appreciate those words and what they signify. I'm former military, and trust me they have you do a lot stupider stuff that have non-obvious real world consequences. Is the base cap mechanic handwaivium? Completely. Is it frustrating to get out capped by 6 guys with capture assist modules loaded? You bet. However if your strategy does not include all win conditions, and your tactics are incapable of countering it, then that is straight up fail whether you like the mechanic or not.

Oh Rah!

[MischiefSC]

Esplodin, on 11 February 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what the terms strategic and tactical actually mean. No insult, because few appreciate those words and what they signify. I'm former military, and trust me they have you do a lot stupider stuff that have non-obvious real world consequences. Is the base cap mechanic handwaivium? Completely. Is it frustrating to get out capped by 6 guys with capture assist modules loaded? You bet. However if your strategy does not include all win conditions, and your tactics are incapable of countering it, then that is straight up fail whether you like the mechanic or not.

I'm very familiar with the terms and I absolutely get the idea that many 'targets of interest' are absolutely ridiculous. The point though is that if your platoon occupies a goat farm while in the middle of a massive military engagement does the enemy instantly surrender, even if they were winning? If your whole battalion was engaged and losing against a concerted enemy force but suddenly Pauly Shore in a water truck manages to drive his way into their base and wait for 60 seconds before someone (thankfully) shoots him in the head does that mean you won anyway?

I'm all for complicated tactics and strategy in game. That's exactly why I hate the base cap mechanics. They pander to the lowest common denominator of 'tactics'. 'we're losing, send someone to run cap' isn't tactics it's a cop-out. 'We're losing, fall back to D4 and secure the refinery, we'll have more cover there. D3 will be our kill box' is a strategy, using LRMs when the enemy has to cross the open space to close with you is tactics.

My point is that base capping 'strategy and tactics' in the existing form are crap. yes, there needs to be a way to avoid running off and powering down griefing but that's completely different from map and objective design.

Set up a base on only one side. One side defends, the other attacks. Have a single central point. There have been some excellent suggestions on the topic so far. Trying to defend the current system as anything other than capture the flag level FPS gameplay is just silly.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Not going back to defend your base when Betty tells you exactly where your enemy is, You fail. My Base was being captured, I helped eliminate the threat. went on to kill the rest of the team with my allie. over at the enemy base... That is how you play assault when someone tries to take your stuff. You punish him and the go on to make him pay even more.

Base Cappers only get a lame win when we are to lame to do what has to be done.

I feel like I'm not getting my point across. The problem is that the 'strategy and tactics' this engender are complete crap. The whole design eliminates the value of using true complicated tactics because one light can insta-win no matter what else you do. If he does manage to flank you for an advantageous position Betty warns you.

Better option - make tactics legitimately about how your units perform on the field and their deployment. Want to have secondary and tertiary objectives? Make them sway the value of both win and loss but not end the match. Destroy ammo dumps, power transmission locations, communications towers and the like. Keep the enemy from doing the same. Give an actual legitimate reason to do something other than blob up and rush for the enemy base.

This crappy mechanic is what hamstrings richer tactical application of units. A pure deathmatch style game is more complicated, not less because you're going to win or lose based on where you setup, who you deploy where and how you advance. There is no 'cheap win' option.

Keeping someone from standing alone on your base for 60 seconds isn't some defensive tactical conundrum. Keep him from getting a clear shot at your fuel depot to do enough damage to blow it up, that's a tactical concern. Deny him the high ground since it's going to be a battle of attrition.

Deeper mechanics, not this recycled CoD crap. A death-match game would be more tactical and not less.