68 replies to this topic

[jay35]

Karl Franz, on 12 February 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

SSRM2 are not a problem now, wait for CSSRM6

Wait, so now we should worry about things that aren't even in the game yet? Good grief.

[Khobai]

SSRM2 are a problem now. CSSRM6 are a problem waiting to happen.

Ultimately the solution for both is the same... change streaks so they no longer automatically hit.

[jay35]

Sean von Steinike, on 13 February 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

Only real problem I have with them is the silly sharp turns they can make.

It's actually not silly at all. Here's an example of a similar (or possibly larger) missile making a pretty sharp turn:
(that link should take you roughly 1 minute 10 seconds into the video. if not, skip ahead to that point)

Edited by jay35, 13 February 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

jay35, on 13 February 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

It's actually not silly at all. Here's an example of a similar (or possibly larger) missile making a pretty sharp turn:
(that link should take you roughly 1 minute 10 seconds into the video. if not, skip ahead to that point)

Cool vid, but the current angle on the streaks is so utterly ridiculous, they sometimes do a 180 turn before they've even fully left the launcher and pass through the firing mech I'm chasing for no damage and come back and hit me when I'm on their tail. Makes killing a streak light with a "good" pilot very difficult when I'm in say a Jenner F, even if I'm faster than them and stay behind them.

[Flapdrol]

Before the ECM the jenner D with 2 ssrm dominated light vs light. Streaks have not changed since then.

My raven 3L has beagle, artemis, tag and ecm. Now why would I do that?

[MaddMaxx]

Easiest fix. Stated before in "other" Streak + ECM problem threads.

1) Move the ECM on any Light that has it to the 1M only slot variant. They ALL have a 1M slot variant. No missile slots, no worries.

2) Make targeting with Torso based launchers require using the Torso based reticule.

The allowed use of the arm based reticule to lock torso based Missile weapons is, well BS really, and should be disallowed.

Then, if an SSRM (+ the dreaded ecm) user has only Torso mounted missile launchers, they will be forced to face the intended target to get a lock and fire and subsequently lose that lock when they turn away, to avoid return fire.

As it stands now, any decent light pilot will allow their arm reticule to lag behind, thus holding the Torso based lock which then allows multiple launches with 1 Lock, or near infinite Lock.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 13 February 2013 - 07:09 AM.

[Stargoat]

MiG77, on 13 February 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

It is not hard counter. AMS would just protect you from certain amount of missiles ~5 per AMS. Just like in TT. If you overhelm AMS then fine, you can do that (by boating) but AMS wouls still be very usefull.

And what about people who only use one or two launchers? You're basically saying boat streaks or don't use them at all. People who don't bring AMS would be hugely penalised. What class of 'mech needs to save space more than any? Light mechs. What 'mechs are currently weak vs streaks? Light 'mechs. This solves nothing, and would just make heavier 'mechs immune to streaks.

Edit: As other users have said, get rid of the ridiculous manoeuvrability of them. And if not, the idea of increased lock-on time per launcher is a great one.

Edited by Stargoat, 13 February 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[FrostCollar]

Strum Wealh, on 13 February 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

"A player attempting to lock a Streak missile on target must make a standard to-hit roll during the Weapon Attack Phase as if he were firing a standard SRM."
"The player must roll for a targeting lock each turn, even if he achieved a lock in the previous turn. The player must make a separate to-hit roll for each individual Streak system being fired."
(Total Warfare, pg. 138)

This gives me an idea, actually. If nothing else, why not make launching streaks de-lock the target? The idea being that you're targeting the individual streaks every time. I also like the idea of having different systems having to be individually locked.

Really though, I wouldn't care if that idea wasn't implemented if streaks were balanced. Right now in my 3L it's very easy to get a lock and once I have one on an enemy light, it's dead. Streaks generate minimal heat and never miss. I just need to hold down the fire button and watch them die. Something to make that process more skill based (have to lock every time, longer locks, worse turning capability on the missiles, etc.) is sorely needed.

I recall reading an insightful comment on a different game forum years ago that the rarity of something does not make it less overpowered. Streaks are mostly confined to ECM mechs now, but that doesn't make them less powerful. In fact, streaks are a key part of the broader ECM light issue.

[Satan Petit Cul]

VonRunnegen, on 13 February 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

So..... if streaks weighed twice as much as now they'd not boat nearly as well in the A1 and would be a significant investment for the craven/streakmando/jenner d. They'd still be pretty handy to spider-kill or similar but wouldn't be the only choice in light vs light fights. Then again, they'd be rubbish for big mechs wanting a light-deterrent.
How about halving the ammo per ton? Still as good as now for a single launcher designed to stop lights running freely around, but on a streak cat or a craven the limited ammo would be a problem, forcing players away from totally relying on them.

I really like the idea of increasing the weight of ammunition.

I remember that PG corrected the path of streak in a previous patch. The streak missiles were missing sometimes the target (even on stationnary mech it was a little bit silly). It was perfect, but they remove it

FrostCollar, on 13 February 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

have to lock every time

good idea also

[MiG77]

Stargoat, on 13 February 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

And what about people who only use one or two launchers? You're basically saying boat streaks or don't use them at all. People who don't bring AMS would be hugely penalised. What class of 'mech needs to save space more than any? Light mechs. What 'mechs are currently weak vs streaks? Light 'mechs. This solves nothing, and would just make heavier 'mechs immune to streaks.

If people use one of two launcher then fight against mech's that dont have AMS or make build that dont use streaks. Simple as that. Any mech can use AMS so using it totally up to you (it is easy to free up 1.5t even if you are light).

Also as I said changed would need to be done AMS current functionality also. IE it protect only you and perhaps that it only can follow one opponent at time. IE two mech fire missiles (streaks or not) AMS can focus only one at time.

[Mister Blastman]

How about fix them making your screen go black. That's the only problem I have with them.

[Wispsy]

Ssrms are only really a problem for lights IMO. The best way to allow lights to stand a chance against them, especially when ECM lights with ssrms can run at max speed (mostly unavoidable) is to reduce their manouverability so they can be reliably dodged. That way the ssrm mechs would need to at least get clear angles/shots instead of just 10 seconds of circling or 13 seconds of chasing before winning. The other idea I really like is making missile lock require torso not arm reticle. I would find that acceptable.

[Taemien]

The only changes I would make to streaks are these:

1. Fire at random locations (legs/arms as valid targets).
2. Lose lock when fired. (This is canon, you must obtain a lock every turn)
3. Give a warning to a target that a streak lock is being obtained.

The first is being implemented. The second is something suggested by the community. And it makes sense, it will REALLY make sense once Streak SRM4s/6s are out.

The third is something I believe should be implemented because it gives a light mech a chance to break the lock by moving behind something. But I believe a SSRM that is locked and fired should always hit the target (unless something crazy happens that causes an object to intervene after being fired). Streaks should not be dodged, the challenge should be in obtaining the lock itself. The idea should be, "Ok that dude has streaks, I should avoid getting locked." Not "Oh snap, I need to dodge that missile he just fired."

Increasing the lockon time is another alternative, especially for the larger streak launchers. Making it take longer means light mechs will be less likely to use them (though I think SSRM2s should be favored by lights as a small punching weapon). If it takes 4 seconds to lock with a SSRM6 for example, the light mech will load up on 2's instead. No light mech is going to want to stay exposed to fire for 4 full seconds. And if going after another light mech, 4 seconds both going 130kph+ Dodging and weaving will be difficult. Though a slower mech will have an easier time, even against lights.

[Vodrin Thales]

p00k, on 12 February 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

they're going to reduce the amount of cockpit shake they incur, and make it so they don't always home in on center torso


oh right, they did that like 5 patches ago
and since then, they've been playing with what is a valid lockon point for streaks (knee joints, etc) to try to spread out their damage more

in their current form, streaks are actually pretty fair. even if you were to completely remove ecm, the streakapult might make a resurgence but would be a far cry from its former glory

I still think they are far too likely to hit a mech's torso. Does anyone else remember streaks in previous mechwarrior games that would orbit their target if fired when not pointed to it, and would result in the missile potentially hitting almost any part of the target?

[GODzillaGSPB]

Since ECM, I've seen two streakcats. Yes, two, in 200 games or so.

And even the general use of streaks is more or less limited to lights and some mediums.

To be honest I was a bit confused at first. I believed this topic was from a few months ago and time-traveled to the future!

[Vodrin Thales]

GODzillaGSPB, on 13 February 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Since ECM, I've seen two streakcats. Yes, two, in 200 games or so.

And even the general use of streaks is more or less limited to lights and some mediums.

To be honest I was a bit confused at first. I believed this topic was from a few months ago and time-traveled to the future!

Now you almost always see them on commandos, ravens, and even Atlas DDC's. Pretty much any mech that mounts ECM, and for obvious reasons.

Let me ask you this though. When is the last time you saw a 3L Raven, or 2D commando that did not mount streaks. That should tell you something about how balanced they are.

[Strum Wealh]

"Move the ECM on any Light that has it to the 1M only slot variant. They ALL have a 1M slot variant. No missile slots, no worries."

And what of the RVN-3L, which by necessity comes with two missile hardpoints (to house the canonical stock loadout's Narc launcher and SRM-6 launcher) and an ECM Suite (which is also part of the canonical stock loadout)?

And if the 30-ton Javelin is ever implemented, its JVN-11B variant (which shouldn't be an issue until the game reaches 3054) would by necessity come stock with Beagle and Guardian and two missile hardpoints (to house the canonical stock loadout's twin SRM-4 launchers - its only weapons).

On the other side of things, the primary configuration of the Clans' 30-ton Arctic Cheetah OmniMech (available to them since 3037) necessarily mounts Clan ECM (included in the canonical loadout) and comes with the ability to mount at least two missile systems (as the canonical stock loadout is equipped with twin Clan LRM-5s).

Moving ECM capability from one variant to another (such as from the AS7-D-DC to the AS7-K) is straightforward for some 'Mechs, but there are others (such as the Light 'Mechs listed above) to which the quoted statement simply cannot be applied.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

HurlockHolmes, on 13 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

I have never seen a single light with srms and go faster than 130 at least, while being decent with them, which is exactly why I have nothing to fear from them. It has been a very long time since I have seen/fought a legitimately good light pilot, or it could be that every single mech in this game moves in such a manner that it makes it **** easy to predict their movements. And since the "mostly" fixed netcode, it truly shows how weak they are.

I have only seen ONE light pilot that I found difficult to hit, he was in a spider with what I assume was max jumpjets allowed or near the most. But his armament was so weak that he wasn't even a threat. And in the end it only took one volley of 2x6srm to near one shot him.

Every time a light runs up to me and expects to not get mauled, I kick a bag of terrible pilots into a river.

Yes, you are the best player in the game and have no problem killing anything. You average 6 kills per match in your commando and have a giant dong. Thanks for posting.

***** Petit Cul, on 13 February 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

FYI i am used to play 2xSRM6 Commando 1D.


There is absolutely no point to be a light mech and stay behind an Atlas ! If you want to stay behind an Atlas you don't need to go fast, you need to hit strong.



And? it doesn't change anything ! Because if you are in a Commando a Raven 3L can kill you 10 times before his armor turns red even if all your teammates are shooting at him thanks to lagshield.

I'm just telling you how to adapt. If you want to continue making excuses and get your butt kicked by lights carrying ECM then have fun.

Khobai, on 13 February 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

This idea is as bad as ECM. Nothing should hard counter missiles. Missiles just shouldnt be so overpowered in the first place that they need a hard counter.

The whole problem is that streaks should NOT automatically hit. They dont automatically in tabletop. So why do they automatically hit in MWO? Streaks have the same chance to miss as all other weapons in tabletop. The only difference is that when streaks fail their attack roll they simply don't waste ammo or heat. And when streaks pass their attack roll they don't have to roll on the cluster chart like normal SRMs.

So do I get a missile refunded when they miss? Because I mean.....canon right.

Edited by crabcakes66, 13 February 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[HurlockHolmes]

crabcakes66, on 13 February 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yes, you are the best player in the game and have no problem killing anything. You average 6 kills per match in your commando and have a giant dong. Thanks for posting.

Thanks! Finally somebody understands my true worth.

That or you are the only goon that doesn't understand extreme sarcasm. No, who am I kidding? You said it yourself, I am the greatest Metal Baby pilot ever with the biggest member, and I don't even pilot them!

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Tries to tell everyone how good he is. Claims it's sarcasm.