304 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 13 February 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Those who can't kill, cap.

Or, those who don't think, rush.

[Novawrecker]

Rofl, on 13 February 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I don't understand how people are incapable of finding enemy movement. The only way you can fail terribly at 8v8 by cap is if you over extend yourself without any knowledge of the opposing force.

- Lack of experience
- Lack of caring to improve
- Cannot grasp the mechanics and tactics of the game
- Brain farted at the wrong moment
or
- Just terrible at that level of this game's engagement

Just tosing out a few, possible, reasons hehe

[mekabuser]

SI The Joker, on 13 February 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

The real reason people hate the cap is because they lose the match to it.

It's all about losing, and how much people dislike it.

completely friggin wrong.. I dont give a crap about a loss.. I care because i just wasted a drop without firing a shot.. thank god its relatively rare, and Ive been a part of many games where there were epic defenses etc, but i CANT STAND IT when i see my team trying to cap right off the bat. ID rather face the goons 24/7 and at least FIGHT than deal with a lame cap for either a win or a loss.

[Mystere]

Antony Weiner, on 13 February 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

The issue here is that some people do not want to play a cap game mode, and a game mode without cap is absent. Essentially, TDM crowd is forced into the bs Assault.

Then the best solution is to ask PGI to create TDM, not ask them to kill a game mode that other people like/tolerate/etc.

[Woska]

Any argument about whether or not you like capture victories are pointless. It is a valid win condition in the scenario that we currently have. So adapt to it, accept it and enjoy your game.

While I agree that ninja capping is a bit frustrating, I've also encountered teams that simply did nothing to respond to a base capture. My team, or the enemy. They would simply keep brawling and completely ignore the base counter ticking away. And I've seen teams completely abandon all reason in their desperate attempt to save the base. Turning their backs to enemy assault mechs so they can lumber back to the base.

In the end, capping is part of the game, so deal with it.

[Odins Fist]

It's called MechWarrior Online, and "NOT" CappingRobots Online...
.
That will be all...

Edited by Odins Fist, 13 February 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[Jman5]

Players who complain about base caps are a classic example of people who want the enemy to play by their rules. They don't want to scout. They don't want to position correctly. They don't want to change their plan. They brought the biggest, baddest (slowest) build they could make and simply want the enemy to come to them.

They have set up their great Maginot line and how dare the enemy take a different approach around their wall of D-DCs.

I don't ever go into a game with the intention of capping, but when I see team tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum flaunting their ignorance and not even scouting 75% of the map, it ****** me off. ****** me off enough that I run straight for their cap to punish them.

The world does not revolve around you. Respect your enemy and you will get a good fight.

Final note: I play lone wolf more than anything else so I know what it takes to counter flanks and base rushes. Stop making excuses and take some initiative yourself.

[Esplodin]

Odins Fist, on 13 February 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

It's called MechWarrior Online, and "NOT" CappingRobots Online...

It's also not called battlebots online - your point? The devs have stated their goal is role warfare, not hot robot on robot action.

[Wired]

So many people stuck in the 90s.

Hey, anti-cappers. Welcome to the 21st century. Video games have evolved passed Team Deathmatch With No Objectives. Evolve or Die.

[Ngamok]

Jman5, on 13 February 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Players who complain about base caps are a classic example of people who want the enemy to play by their rules. They don't want to scout. They don't want to position correctly. They don't want to change their plan. They brought the biggest, baddest (slowest) build they could make and simply want the enemy to come to them.

They have set up their great Maginot line and how dare the enemy take a different approach around their wall of D-DCs.

I don't ever go into a game with the intention of capping, but when I see team tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum flaunting their ignorance and not even scouting 75% of the map, it ****** me off. ****** me off enough that I run straight for their cap to punish them.

The world does not revolve around you. Respect your enemy and you will get a good fight.

Final note: I play lone wolf more than anything else so I know what it takes to counter flanks and base rushes. Stop making excuses and take some initiative yourself.

I will be making 8 man D-DCs at the base from now on. Come at me bros. Of course the opposing team might do the same thing.

[MischiefSC]

Sync dropping 8 people is a valid game mechanic. Accept it and enjoy your game.

No. No, Assault is far from an ideal game mode. Conquest is great. Assault is not and should not be confused for anything other than an old CTF style mechanic and reduces the tactical caliber of the game. If that's what you like then great. The rest of us though want something better.

I should say that I have every faith in PGI to provide better, more tactically rich maps and game modes.

What I'm not going to do though is pretend that Assault is something other than it is.

[Esplodin]

Ngamok, on 13 February 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

I will be making 8 man D-DCs at the base from now on. Come at me bros. Of course the opposing team might do the same thing.

Get use to "No Match Found". Enjoy your play.

[IceSerpent]

Ngamok, on 13 February 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Which is why I say we start Base Sitting with the entire team !

It is a prefectly viable strategy. Not as good as scouting and intercepting the enemy, but viable nonetheless.

ItsAPotato, on 13 February 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Either you are implying that we all run lights so that we can get back to the base in time from anywhere, or you are implying that all or some slow heavies should stay very close to their base so that they can get back in time.

In 8v8 your team composition is entirely up to you. In pug queue both teams get the same number of lights, so if enemy has fast movers that can try to rush the base you have equal number of fast movers that can react to that attempt.
If you only have heavies and assaults, so does the enemy. If OPFOR manages to move those slow heavies behind your lines without you knowing about it, you might want to re-evaluate your tactics.

Quote

I'll assume the later, since Rule #3 of Mechwarrior Online is that any lights on your team will be pants-on-head ******** and will fail to do their job most of the time.

That doesn't have anything to do with game mechanics and has everything to do with your team lacking good pilots, right?

Quote

Leave a few behind to guard against the cap while the other ~6 assault the enemy, you say? Well the enemy are still clumped up at their base. 6v8 is a losing proposition. No one wants that, so we all stand around waiting. MechWaiting Online.

It's not about leaving anybody behind to stand guard - it's about recon in order to find out what OPFOR is doing, followed by intercepting the enemy team.

Quote

The only reason I see this argument continuing is because some people derive enjoyment purely from seeing "Victory" spelled out at the top of the screen, regardless of reward, while others (I dare say most) derive their enjoyment from, you know, fighting other big stompy space robots. I would imagine that the people in the "victory" camp, if given to option to pull an "I win" string at the start of the match which instantly ends the match with a victory in their favor, would do so if given the opportunity.

On the contrary, the argument keeps popping up because some folks are unable to make simple tactical decisions and seem to think along the lines of "I am going to move in this (completely random) direction and enemy has to find me and fight me" and when that fails, they complain about something being wrong with the game. Why they think this idea would work to begin with is beyond me.
The simple truth is that if you want a fight, you need to find the enemy. Given that the enemy can only do 3 things (defend their base, atack your base, or try to find you), and that both base locations are known, it's a fairly easy task to find a fight if you are indeed looking for one.

Edited by IceSerpent, 13 February 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[Esplodin]

MischiefSC, on 13 February 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Sync dropping 8 people is a valid game mechanic. Accept it and enjoy your game.

Just wow. You are so blind you don't see the difference in a tactic that takes advantage of the schmitty matchmaker and a win condition listed right on the load screen.

[Odins Fist]

Esplodin, on 13 February 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

It's also not called battlebots online - your point? The devs have stated their goal is role warfare, not hot robot on robot action.

.
Can't fight then Cap huh..??
.
Nobody plays MechWARRIOR Online to cap, they play it to use their Big Stompy Robots to kill other Big Stompy Robots..
.
QUESTION: how many Conquest games do you see end in capping as the factor for the win..??
ANSWER: 4%.. LOLZ <---- EDIT: Rough estimate
.
Case closed... Splitting hairs is "NOT" an argument, and "SEMANTICS" are the last resort of those desperate to "TRY" and justify "THEIR" opinion versus the "REALITY" of a situation...

Edited by Odins Fist, 13 February 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Kommisar]

ThomasMarik, on 13 February 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

So your inability to create a cohesive defense is somehow our problem? Maybe instead of marching the 8 atlas doom patrol out you might leave a couple back to defend so you can at least delay a rush for the doom patrol to turn around? Alternatively you might try running a few lights yourself so you can respond faster. Maybe watch the avenues of approach as you move up so you aren't surprised when you start getting capped?

Capping is a method of winning the game. From the sound of it you've been staring at the defeat screen often enough one would think you would have figured that out by now.

Wow. Where to start on this one.

First, I don't hate the cap mechanism. With that said....

Okay; when did PUG drops get to start crafting their 8 drop? Sure, in 8 vs 8 fight. But 99% of us don't play those. We control, at best, 4 of the mechs. So, I'm not exactly sure how you you can get some arrogantly angry at players for not better planning their full drop loadout. If I'm missing something, let me know. Lord knows I would love to be able to weed out some of the mechs I end up with on my team.

Second. Outside of 8 vs 8; if one team has an "8 Atlas Doom Patrol"... your team has 8 assaults as well. So, again, missing how this anger is suppose to be directed.

Now. Mounting a good defense. This is a valid topic of discussion!

Numbers win in most fights. Yes, yes. Before you start thumping your chest and typing down your own autobiographical Norse Epic worthy of the skalds of Valhalla about the time <enter bad-*** moment here>; I'm talking in macro here. Game theory. The bell curve and all that. I'm perfectly sure you have never lost and once held off a Steiner Scout Lance with a Savannah Master. If only all of us could be so good, this wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, we are not all as good as you.

So, for the rest of us: numbers generally decide an engagement. The greater the disparity of numbers, the more decisive the outcome. By leaving a defensive force behind means that you have split your force. If the enemy has not, likewise, split their force, you have opened yourself up to be defeated piecemeal. For instance, if my team leaves 4 mechs to defend the base and the enemy force rolls the tunnel and comes pouring out with 7 or 8 mechs the defenders will rarely stand a chance. Even if they are assaults, they will be ground up in less than a minute against a solid attack force. Even if the other 4 mechs rush back, if they are far enough away, even most medium mechs will not make it back in time to prevent the defenders from being pounded down to combat ineffective status.

Or, the enemy pushes up the middle and engages your forward force and the same thing happens.

If you have a full 8 man team that knows what they are about, has coordinated their builds, and is in VOIP communications you might have a chance to pull off 2 forces operating outside of direct support of each other against a team that is keeping all 8 mechs in on grouping. Especially against a loose 8 man group of PUGs that are just following the herd.

How this normally works in a normal PUG round is one team forms around a 4 (or more!) man group and they all move to take the base. The other team then has a choice if they pick up on it.

• Rally up and take them head on. Purely a factor of who you have on your PUG team. Good luck
  
• Split your force. One force attempts to buy time; the other (maybe) goes after their base.
  
• Rush their base and try to beat them; hope someone has a cap accelerator.

In each and every case, the odds are very much with the team that is rolling all 8 mechs in one group.

The other case is where a single or pair of light mech rushes back and grabs the cap. This is largely a distraction effort to... wait for it... make the other side split their force. To get a chump Atlas to run back and leave the group; or something similar. In this case, it is hit or miss if your team has a smart pilot in a fast mech that can respond and save the round. To often, I have had to be that chump Atlas simply due to the fact that all my teams fast mechs can't be bothered and my other choice was to just lose.

Assault works okay when it is PUG v PUG. Or 8 v 8. When the two mix, the whole system falls apart and it sucks. Then again, that is the case regardless of the rules. The 8 man team is going to win. Unfortunately, the 8man crowd (or, at least the loud ones among them) like to take this as an opportunity to strut around and look down on people. I guess they need it. Not all the 8man guys; just the bravos that need attention.

So, most of the player base is completely powerless to really alter the outcome of a base rush against them. They can get lucky! Or they could be a light pilot and be do rapid response. Most lights have rushed out to the far corners, though. Or are attempting to cap rush themselves. Meaning us slower guys are left at the mercy of fate. Which is always something that produces frustration in the best of us.

[Novawrecker]

Odins Fist, on 13 February 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

It's called MechWarrior Online, and "NOT" CappingRobots Online...
.
That will be all...

You fail to realize that, despite being disliked, capping is still a tactic to capitize on.

The problem is most do not know when to properly make use of that tactic which tends to lead to very quick (not to mention, very boring) matches.

Edited by Novawrecker, 13 February 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Garth Erlam]

You'd be surprised what 'I'm on the capper, hold the line' in text chat will do even in pugs. Worked twice today.

[Novawrecker]

Garth Erlam, on 13 February 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

You'd be surprised what 'I'm on the capper, hold the line' in text chat will do even in pugs. Worked twice today.

What?! Everyone knows you don't play. We all know that's a phantom Cicada popping up on our radars stirring up the masses!!

Edited by Novawrecker, 13 February 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Jman5, on 13 February 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Players who complain about base caps are a classic example of people who want the enemy to play by their rules. They don't want to scout. They don't want to position correctly. They don't want to change their plan. They brought the biggest, baddest (slowest) build they could make and simply want the enemy to come to them.

They have set up their great Maginot line and how dare the enemy take a different approach around their wall of D-DCs.

I don't ever go into a game with the intention of capping, but when I see team tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum flaunting their ignorance and not even scouting 75% of the map, it ****** me off. ****** me off enough that I run straight for their cap to punish them.

The world does not revolve around you. Respect your enemy and you will get a good fight.

Final note: I play lone wolf more than anything else so I know what it takes to counter flanks and base rushes. Stop making excuses and take some initiative yourself.

You're completely missing the point. Capping is the training-wheels mechanic here. Regardless of how well or how poorly you play someone can auto-win the match by standing in a box for 60 seconds. This fact utterly trumps all other unit positioning, scouting or activity what so ever.

It makes scouting largely irrelevant. People who lose don't do so because of lack of scouting they lose because they didn't base-rush fast enough. They slowed down to look for a fight. Scouting doesn't mean anything, base-capping is the only thing that does.

Unless you happen to have two teams who are there to fight and nobody on either side is going to go cap but that's rare as hens teeth.

Capping eliminates tactics, it doesn't add them. It adds the big flashing red 'PRESS 4 TEH WIN!' button. Can you win by out-maneuvering, scouting and out-shooting your enemy? Yes, yes you can. No matter how good your tactics, positioning and the like are though if they manage to stand in a box for 60 seconds they win. Hence the only tactics that matter are:

A) Stand in their box for 60 seconds.

B ) Don't let them stand in your box for 60 seconds.

The only tactics anyone should play is -

A) Camp your own base.

B ) Send 1 light out to hide, wait for the enemy to leave their base, then go camp it.

When both teams do this it's a draw.

Nobody does that though because it would be utter crap to play. So instead we trundle out, hoping to actually get to fight someone but realizing that all we're doing is screwing around while we wait for someone on either side to rush for cap.

You like it? Great, keep it. Don't pretend that it's somehow tactical though. It's Conquest For Dummies. You're playing the junior-grade version.