304 replies to this topic

[Therion I]

To me the game mode assault implies one team attacking and one team defending. Then everyone immediately knows what's expected of them and the rewards for capping or defending should be the same as eliminating the other team. Think this would also inject some tactics into the game.

[Skizzak]

Taurich, on 13 February 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

You're wrong, and I wonder why you're so oblivious to the real reason people don't like cap rushes


It's because dropping into a match, spending three minutes forming up then walking towards the enemy, only to fire 2 shots before losing OR winning the match on cap is freaking boring for everyone involved.

I am not playing MechJogger Online, a robotic jogging simulator. I'm here to shoot stuff

Pretty much this. There is no way to tell how much cbills your team or opponents have and lets face it, most people want to earn as much cbills as possible per match. When one team caps the point and there are hardly any battles going down the most cbills you can earn if you cap to win is 25k. So grats on stroking your epeen cause you won but just know you ****** alot of people out on potential cbills. Not to mention the match was boring as hell.

Edited by Skizzak, 13 February 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[zraven7]

Josef Nader, on 13 February 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

Yet 9/10 times, splitting the team in a PuG is an express ticket to Failureville. Either the few guys on the front line get blasted apart as the other team (that did -not- split up) rolls over the ridge, or the few guys that stayed behind to defend the cap get blown apart as the entire team materializes to blow them apart. Without voice comms sending out light mechs to scout is painfully ineffective. They have no way to communicate effectively and still maintain control of their 150kph mech, especially in the face of ECM.

Base rushes can be stopped through effective communication. Too bad you can't communicate effectively with text chat in the heat of combat.

Wow, that does stink. If there was only some way that you could implement voice communication, and then find a group of people who want to form some kind of community, and play the game together, increasing the value and enjoyment of the experience as a whole...

... http://mwomercs.com/...um/60-outreach/ ...

...I guess we will just have to soldier on without such luxeries. *sigh*

[Taizan]

Even though it's boring, lame and doesn't bring much c-bills or exp, it's still a valid method for a win.

I guess one reason that base cap is frowned upon was because of all the base races we had going on some months ago, which were utterly boring matches and not at all what I join a match for. Some people like a good fight and I'd wager in an MW game, that is the majority.

[SpiralRazor]

Esplodin, on 13 February 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

I've been seeing a lot of pre-match "don't cap noobs" in all chat lately, as well as here on the forums. Like it or not (and I don't particularly like it btw) it is a win condition of the mission, such as we have available at this point. Most of us that have been playing a while have plenty of GXP and C-bills, so the limited rewards argument is kinda pointless unless you are new.

The answer why hit me last night as my pug got steamrolled while we were arguing about it in all chat. (BTW, thank you for actually holding targets long enough for my LRMs to kill two and make the rest look like they were in a fight - you guys were awesome!) Put enough of a negative stigma on the "race to cap" and you don't need to upgrade your engines for the 4 man Atlas Steiner patrol, or take lights that are less effective now in melee since you can hit them.

I think it is time to finally finish leveling my spiders and do NOTHING but base caps until the opposition learns that this is a game of balance between tonnage, speed, and heat. If you don't want to play all dimensions of this game, fine. I'd rather take 300ish xp and 25K c-bills over the bigger rewards for rockem sockem robots because it also comes with gallons of man/woman/transgender tears.

Maybe the "only carry AC20 and Gauss" teams will reconsider their builds. Probably not, since whining about a built in mechanic is easier then having a strategy for it.

Its boring, and bad, and you should feel bad. Ive been playing quite awhile and still need CBills because some of us have 10+ mechbays you know? Its not worth loading into a game for 40k and 200xp.

[zraven7]

SpiralRazor, on 13 February 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Its boring, and bad, and you should feel bad. Ive been playing quite awhile and still need CBills because some of us have 10+ mechbays you know? Its not worth loading into a game for 40k and 200xp.

"Wait! Don't win! I need money!!!"
Somehow, I'm not moved to change my ways.

[Skizzak]

Taizan, on 13 February 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Even though it's boring, lame and doesn't bring much c-bills or exp, it's still a valid method for a win.

I guess one reason that base cap is frowned upon was because of all the base races we had going on some months ago, which were utterly boring matches and not at all what I join a match for. Some people like a good fight and I'd wager in an MW game, that is the majority.

I don't think anyone is arguing against it being a valid way to win the game. The reason people hate it is because its boring and it doesnt net you any cbills. You pretty much jog for 3 minutes and the game is over. It sucks.

As someone else mentioned it would be nice if the bases were "locked" for X amount of minutes for beginning stages of the match.

[SjurWarEagle]

SpiralRazor, on 13 February 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Its boring, and bad, and you should feel bad. Ive been playing quite awhile and still need CBills because some of us have 10+ mechbays you know? Its not worth loading into a game for 40k and 200xp.

Oh just a quick note. Try calculating earnings / time not earnings / game.
Guess what? A game capturing the foolish unprotected enemy base gives you much more xp and cbills than fighting.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I'm not pro-cap per se but I also don't get butt-hurt when it happens. Would I prefer the fight to determine victory? Sure, but I'm cognizant that sometimes pyrrhic victories have to occur (via capping often times). Personally I don't ever advocate capping as a tactic unless it's the only way we can prevent a loss or steal a victory from the jaws of defeat. I'd much much MUCH rather fight it out.

That being said....it's really very simple to hover close enough to your base on any map and still ensure theres a fight. Admittedly, your team full of PUGs may not be willing to stay close to base and fight near home, but those are the same PUGs who probably won't send lights back to base to stop a cap anyway, or the same PUGs who'll go on a "death recon" by racing into the enemy main body or the same PUG's that will take LRM boats through the tunnel on frozen city for a meeting engagement etc.

The reality of things is, if people don't communicate and take charge of PUG's, then there's a good chance PUG's will do whatever the hell strikes their fancy regardless, get you down a Mech or two and the inevitable spiraling attrition will occur anyway or you'll get capped.

Base capping isn't the problem. It's people being either unwilling or unable to swallow a little pride and either take charge of a group or listen to someone trying to take charge and offering up a reasonable course of action for a drop.

People complain about base capping because they can't get PUG lights to go back and stop the cap, or they can't get people to pay attention to enemy movement because they fixate on chasing kills etc. Not because base capping in and of itself is somehow bad.

Edited by Lukoi, 13 February 2013 - 06:37 AM.

[Gladewolf]

Taurich, on 13 February 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

You're wrong, and I wonder why you're so oblivious to the real reason people don't like cap rushes


It's because dropping into a match, spending three minutes forming up then walking towards the enemy, only to fire 2 shots before losing OR winning the match on cap is freaking boring for everyone involved.

I am not playing MechJogger Online, a robotic jogging simulator. I'm here to shoot stuff



imo a cap victory should give no rewards at all in assault. It should only be there as a last ditch attempt to deny the other team a win, not so you can farm XP in your trollspider
Capping should be a legitimate way to force a stalemate, not a legitimate way to win.

You are actually completely correct here, except for the walking toward the enemy part... I don't understand why entire teams insist on running 3 minutes away from their base while having NO IDEA where their enemy is....that's just asking to have your base captured....and that's what is deserved for ignoring the win conditions of the game. I sometimes fall prey to it, and i know that when it happens i have only myself to blame.

[Josef Nader]

zraven7, on 13 February 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

Wow, that does stink. If there was only some way that you could implement voice communication, and then find a group of people who want to form some kind of community, and play the game together, increasing the value and enjoyment of the experience as a whole...

... http://mwomercs.com/...um/60-outreach/ ...

...I guess we will just have to soldier on without such luxeries. *sigh*

I'm in a corp and I play 4 and 8 mans all the time. I also solo pug quite a bit. In 8 mans, base rushes are easy to deal with. In 4 mans, you have 4 teammates you can't effectively communicate with and who are usually pretty terrible. If you don't stick close to them and use them to shield yourself from incoming fire, they're going to get blown away without doing any serious damage to the enemy team and you're going to be up the creek. In a solo PuG, there's pretty much nothing you can do to stop a base rush, and it's all rather frustrating when I have a small amount of time to play (which is usually why I solo. I only have time for a few games and I don't want to wait for everyone to finish tarting up their mech).

Long and short is that the inclusion of in-game VoIP would make a huge difference for the solo puggers and the folks like me who don't usually have time to sit down with a group and play for a few hours. It would also make it infinitely easier to deal with stupid, ineffective-against-a-coordinated-team tactics like a base rush.

[Monsoon]

While I'm not a fan of groups who's main objective is cap rushing. Capping IS a valid option and can sometime turn a PUG stomp loss into a victory.

It's really your own fault if you commit too strongly into a offense, and totally ignore defense completely.

I've been in a few matches where I'd jump on Cap in hopes of splitting the enemies forces, only to find that none of them would even try to come back. In most of those cases, it wasn't because they were too far away either. It seemed to either be laziness or a total disregard for defending their base.

TL/DNR:

Capping is a legitimate option, but 8/4-man light groups Cap-rushing are pure cheese.

Edited by Monsoon, 13 February 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

well...u can occasionally type things into chat to try and influence PUGs. Seems to work for me alot (not all) of the time....and you can't do anything with the remaining shitheads because typed chat, VOIP/TS or telepathy isn't going to get certain people to stop doing incredibly dumb things or stubbornly stop trying to chase one more precious kill rather than assess and react to their situation's in a hollistic manner.

[Hou]

Is the capping mechanic as currently implemented on the maps we have available pretty lame? Yep, it's not great. Is capping one of the few ways to actually draw mechs out of the position and cover they might choose to defend depending on their loadout? Yep.

Remove capping as a mechanic and wait for the all SRM loadout 4 man to huddle in the tunnel on Forest colony and just...wait. Wait for every team always to defend the ridge and tunnel exit on Frozen with gausses/ppcs and the first team to move loses. Wait, we have a lot of that already and forcing movement to stop a cap when somebody gets around is already about the only effective way we have of countering that.

[NitroDev]

When they reduced the rewards for winning by base capping and removed R&R, that was a pretty clear message that the devs didn't intend for every game to turn into a base rush. It was a poor way to try to prevent it, but it still happens.

IMO base capping should be a last resort. Most times I won't participate in the base cap if it's my team doing it, but win or lose, if I'm still alive at the end, I consider that a personal victory.

Edited by NitroDev, 13 February 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Shismar]

Obviously the rewards are wrong for assault. A cap should always reward same or better rewards in CBill and Exp as killing the enemy team.

I will always cap if it offers the best chance for my team to win.

[Captain Wolfsburg]

Personally, I don't care if the enemy team tries to cap. The lance I run with uses mainly cataphracts, and our builds fast enough that we can either defend base, or rush to cap theirs.

However, I don't like it when a PUG on my team runs to cap the enemy base when we're clearly winning and have the battlefield advantage. It takes kills away from me, and they could be earning more XP and profit by supporting the other fighters.

Now, is capping a legitimate win? Yes

Do I like capping?

Them? Sure (more fodder)

Us? Please no



What it sounds like a lot of players want is a death match, rather than assault. I'm sure that will come eventually along with community warfare (and let's not forget about possibly Solaris 7).

Also, I seem to remember the devs saying that assault will eventually feature full bases with automated defenses. If/when this is implemented, assault should become much more interesting.

And that's my two cents.

[Josef Nader]

Shismar, on 13 February 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Obviously the rewards are wrong for assault. A cap should always reward same or better rewards in CBill and Exp as killing the enemy team.

I will always cap if it offers the best chance for my team to win.

It used to, and it hurt the game horribly as most teams would tiptoe around each other to avoid damaging their precious mechs in order to cap farm.

Admittedly, R&R was a big part of why that was, but the goal of the game should be to encourage us to fight robots. Playing grandmother's footsteps with base caps is boring as hell and only of interest to people who care more about W/L ratio than actually playing the game.

[Spawnsalot]

Capping is, unfortunately, a necessary evil. Without it matches would descend into the situations Hou described and "Find that last ECM/jump jet light hiding in the corner."

It should be a last resort until they make the capping objective more challenging.

People keep spouting things like "If you don't have someone to defend, then of course you're going to lose." and "I don't need the XP/C-Bills, so why do anything else?"

Go ask a PUG player to sit on the cap to defend it at the start of a match, while the rest of the team moves off to shoot mechs with lasers and let us know what they say.

A lot of us playing who are against capping don't need/care about the wins (and possibly not the XP/C-Bills), we're here to get stuck in and fight each other in massive walking tanks. "It's the journey, not the destination" and all that...

You want to cap? Fine, why not just hold off for a few minutes and let your team mates have a good scrap first? You could even contribute to the fight (in your base-capping atlas...) and *then* go cap - that's not completely unreasonable is it?

[Onmyoudo]

Stormwolf, on 13 February 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Isn't that basically how you are supposed to win in conquest?

Truth be told, I find the two missions we have right now rather underwhelming when compared to the missions we could have had. I want to assault/defend bases, withdraw to dropships and run patrols in areas.

No - in Conquest you are supposed to fight over the resource squares and once capped the game doesn't immediately end. It is very difficult to avoid conflict for an entire match.

As for your second paragraph, I agree wholeheartedly.