179 replies to this topic

[zverofaust]

Kobold, on 13 February 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

You should plan how you will deal with losing one or more weapon systems.

How exactly do you plan to deal with losing a weapon and potentially a large chunk of your damage output? What do you change in your gameplay style, tactics or level of aggression? You're pretty much faced with two choices. Keep going until you die or run away and hope people ignore you the rest of the match.

On the other hand, temporarily losing a weapon, or experiencing a drop in accuracy, rate of fire or other performance, have both very real and immediate consequences while maintaining the ability of the player to alter their gameplay/tactics/level of aggression to adapt to this adversity. Ducking out of combat until the weapon is fixed (like a UAC/5 jam) or picking your engagement times more carefully or moving in closer to limit inaccurate shots are all things that expand upon the tactics of your game, and with few exceptions do not exist in the current "welp your weapon's dead have fun" status quo.

[Pr8Dator]

Go play Hawken... this is MECHWARRIOR!

[Epicentr]

Bryan Kerensky, on 13 February 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Also, 1 ac/20 round cannot kill a light outright no matter where you hit it. Two maybe, but not one.

Cockpit of any 'mech has at most 18 armor, just thought I'd toss that in there. I've agreed with almost everything you've said but you did miss that one a tad.

zverofaust, on 13 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

I appreciate that you made a lot of :words: about things as a response but I'd BLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAH BLAH BLAH SNARK.

Please add me in-game so that I can ignore you there as well.

I'll concede that the AC/20 could use some more HP before popping but, as many others have pointed out, the size of the AC/20 offsets the damage potential of the equipment. There is nothing random about being able to hit a barn more easily than it is to hit a shed. You can have an e-cookie for verbosity and proper English syntax, spelling, et al, but you're so far off base with your attitude and stubborn insistence that I think you should stop while you're ahead not too far behind. Perhaps if you valued anyone else's opinion but your own people would be more willing to debate tentative changes to propose to the development team. That scaling HP:crit slot idea was actually fairly good and you totally **** on the idea, probably by "only reading the first two lines".

Please leave the interwebs, kthx.

Edited by Epicentr, 13 February 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[Volthorne]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 February 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

While I agree with your conclusion, headshots in TT are 1/36, not 1/8. The head may have been 1 out of 8 locations, but a 12 on 2d6 is a 1 in 36 chance.

The average chance of rolling a headshot is 1/36, yes, but in my experience it happens far more often than the low chance suggests it would.

[Zerethon]

Ricama, on 13 February 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

No it is not, it is mitigated by a 1 ton 1 slot item that takes up a weapon slot (of a type some missile chuckers don't have). LRMs have the worst damage to cool running heat tonnage in the game, do not allow you to target areas with them, and fire slower than some mechs can run. The only thing that makes them worthwhile is the ability to fire indirectly but with ECM not only do you not have that option, you have to sit there out of cover for the entire 10 seconds it takes for your shots to slowly wander across the battlefield to the target you're holding a targeting laser on.

And yes people can use logic, 75% range + continued loss of functionality =|= negated.

Ooooh, you're advocating not bothering to use LRMs as a solution ... why am I not surprised.

Okay, Ready for the Z to drop a wall of explosive logic on your head? Good.

Firstly, TAG has a 750m range and increases LRM Accuracy on marked targets as well as negates ECM cover

ECM can only negate TAG at ~180m

Ergo, at the range where ECM Actively disrupts TAG'd LRM's, They don't work anyways. At which point a pure missle boat is totally screwed (Even if the mech doesn't have ECM) hence my opting for the additional twin artemis-6 SRM Racks.

Also, slowly? Mein freund, with my Cat C4, i have an XL305 and an endo-steel chassis giving me a top speed over 80kph, that is not slow, that's actually PDQ for a heavy class mech, it's really not hard for me to TAG, fire LRM's, hide, wait a sec or 2, pop out, re-lock, and let artemis + TAG do their dirty magic

It's all about the playstyle. I don't play LRM mechs as boats, i play them as fire support or line mechs, typically having LRM's backed up by Large lasers/PPC's/SRM racks allowing me to not only bring moderate indirect fire to the table, but also mid-to-high Direct fire damage at multiple ranges.

This isn't something new, it wasn't started because of ECM, i've been doing it for AGES now (Before artemis, even.) it's just common sense. It's just the law of tactics, either you evolve your tactics to go with the flow, or you get left behind in the annals of history for modern generations to look back at and go "Damn, what the F*** were we thinking?"

[yashmack]

Tennex, on 13 February 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

butl lets counter a 1.5 ton item with teamwork! Voicechat and TAG!!!

sounds reasonable to me, in fact it works every time...

[Budor]

I would like some differences in item hp. We will see what PGI comes up with once the item pass is complete and implemented.

[Mackman]

Volthorne, on 13 February 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

The average chance of rolling a headshot is 1/36, yes, but in my experience it happens far more often than the low chance suggests it would.

Are you serious? Are you seriously suggesting that only for you, a 1 in 36 chance happens far more often than just 1 in 36 times? Or do you just mean that 1/36 isn't actually all that low?

[Bryan Kerensky]

Epicentr, on 13 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Cockpit of any 'mech has at most 18 armor, just thought I'd toss that in there. I've agreed with almost everything you've said but you did miss that one a tad.

Cockpit internals have 3-5 hp. I didn't miss anything

[Davers]

KharnZor, on 13 February 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

...
How about you stop it and try to understand that people have differing views to your own. The thinly veiled insults that you are giving to some of the responses are un called for.

There really is no point responding to ZF. He isn't looking for a discussion or debate. He is just stating his opinion and everyone who disagrees is wrong. Haven't you seen any other of his threads?

[CECILOFS]

I agree with some of the OP, but really it is a skill-based system: Don't get hit in the RT and you won't lose your AC/20

[MustrumRidcully]

Bryan Kerensky, on 13 February 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

This is already covered under the number of crit slots a weapon takes which is why a gauss rifle is almost guaranteed to be destroyed when the armor in that area is breached. The problem comes in the form of, for example, 3 SRMS in a DDCs left torso. How is the crit calculated for that? Which is the first,second or third largest item? That is where the randomness ensues.

I added a rule for it. Basically, we define a sequence, an the final part is definitive and leaves no room for doubts - the object placed highest in your mech lab is it.

Quote

EDIT: I would support this if only it occurs when all armor is stripped from that location.

The first rule was only meant for structure damage, yes.

[lsp]

Please leave, it's people like you who are ruining this game. And turning into another hawken or mech assault.

[ZnSeventeen]

Mackman, on 13 February 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Are you serious? Are you seriously suggesting that only for you, a 1 in 36 chance happens far more often than just 1 in 36 times? Or do you just mean that 1/36 isn't actually all that low?

I am pretty sure he is playfully suggesting that he has bad luck in Battletech, with dice rolls. (In other words, he gets head capped a lot.)

[Furmansky]

Competitive gamers... ah I love that, read plenty of topics how to be seriously competitive and set visual settings to see better and further than us common folks, how to tweak settings that will give you clear advantage against the players like disappearing bushes etc ( this was not MWO: example, but more like ARMA II or Red Orchestra 2 or WOT with hit boxes textures ) I'm just a gamer, a Battlemech Pilot in this case, only certain way that my gauss won't explode in my face is to make sure it will not get hit. You want real competitive games go play ping pong or chess or something, cause mechwarrior is no better or worse competitive game than BF3, WOT or LOL, or any other PC game out there. It has just its' certain set of rules, that shouldn't be to hard to adapt to... specially for serious competitive gamers...

[Dr Killinger]

While I don't agree with OP's premise, the AC/20 lasts about 5 seconds once you find an enemy as the premier brawler's weapon, it needs to be tougher imho.

[MustrumRidcully]

There is also another side to the critical hit system as is. It sucks if you use lasers, MGs, AC/2s or (Ultra) AC/5s.

You deal very little damage per shot, so your critical damage is spread across all components. Where an AC/10 will simply kill one, two or three components on a critical hit, 2 Medium Lasers would spread it across all components thanks to the many "ticks". Still sucks if you're using an AC/20, but if you're using 2, 3 or more items in a hit location, the guy with the ML has little chance to take somethng out - until shortly befor ethe end, where he suddenly destroys 2, 3 or more items in quick succession.

That's why the proposed MG Critical Damage Buff seems so pointless to me. IF they just increased its damage against internals, that might be more point. You might still take twice the time as with any othe rweapon to chew through armour, but at least you can kill internal armour twice as fast... (Of course, still doesn't work out well for you. Armour makes out 2/3 of your total hit points at each location. If you need twice as long for the first 2/3 and can do the last 1/3 three times as fast, you're still taking 8/6+1/6 = 9/6 = 1.5 of the time as someone that deals normal damage against the first 2/3 and the last 1/3... No multiplier on the last 1/3 can compensate for the first 2/3.


EDIT:
Alternate Crit System Thread: http://mwomercs.com/...ternative-take/

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 14 February 2013 - 02:55 AM.

[Kommisar]

yamishan, on 13 February 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

this game doesnt need that system in it the game would suddenly have no player base above age 12 because uhm? why do we want to play a mechassault/mario cart fps? i thought it was called MECHWARRIORONLINE....

on the other hand the other MW titles had repair facilities on certain maps that could be used for in mission partial/complete repairs to keep the fight going but that was also because you were basicly 1 man against the world this is a team based game so it isnt as viable.

I'm sorry Yamishan; my hope was to add some levity. Didn't think anyone would actually take those ideas seriously.

[zverofaust]

lsp, on 14 February 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

Please leave, it's people like you who are ruining this game. And turning into another hawken or mech assault.

If you havin reading problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but comprehension ain't one.

Furmansky, on 14 February 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

Competitive gamers... ah I love that, read plenty of topics how to be seriously competitive and set visual settings to see better and further than us common folks, how to tweak settings that will give you clear advantage against the players like disappearing bushes etc ( this was not MWO: example, but more like ARMA II or Red Orchestra 2 or WOT with hit boxes textures ) I'm just a gamer, a Battlemech Pilot in this case, only certain way that my gauss won't explode in my face is to make sure it will not get hit. You want real competitive games go play ping pong or chess or something, cause mechwarrior is no better or worse competitive game than BF3, WOT or LOL, or any other PC game out there. It has just its' certain set of rules, that shouldn't be to hard to adapt to... specially for serious competitive gamers...

Really? I mean not only have you somehow managed to clump games like Arma II (which isn't even a PVP game) and RO2, World of Tanks, BF3 and LoL, but you've somehow come to the conclusion that they're no more or less competitive than MWO?

[SpiralRazor]

zverofaust, on 13 February 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'm amazed that this permanent destruction of Mech equipment at complete random is still around as an integral part of this game, a feature seen nowhere else in the entirety of even mediocre competitive game titles.

Let me drop a very simple, infallible truth: Having random, permanent and game-changing effects in a competitive multiplayer game is one of the most blatant taboos imaginable in the genre. There's no getting around that fact.

Please stop adhering to this ridiculous, inappropriate and out-of-place gimmick from a 30 year old tabletop strategy game. I'd really like MWO to be successful and it's heading down the right path, and you guys have made some very awesome improvements since October in tweaking and overhauling various aspects of the game with that goal in mind. But these hold-overs do nothing to benefit the game and serve as little more than blunt obstacles to both casual enjoyment and serious competitiveness, and it's time to re-evaluate their implementation.

With that in mind, here are some generalized suggestions on how the system can be improved:

• Temporary Effect: The loss of functionality of the damaged equipment is temporary.
  
• "Analog" or Reduced Impact Effect: Rather than the arbitrarily "binary" aspect of the feature that determines whether a piece of equipment is "working" (1) or "broken" (0), have a more "analog" approach where functionality of the equipment gradually degrades the more it is damaged. Absolute destruction is unnecessary, as this result is obviously achieved by destruction of the component housing the equipment itself.

I like the idea of "battle damage"; it indeed adds more depth to combat than simply giving every Mech a healthbar to chew through. But in a competitive online game with no respawning or "reset button", having permanent, random events heavily affecting your Mech adds nothing to gameplay -- on the contrary, it takes from both the casual and competitive aspects of the game by frustrating people with arbitrary unavoidable dice-roll gimmicks and making real competition no more legitimate than a game of dice. There is no way for a player to "play around" or adapt their playstyle to losing a weapon. It's simply gone.





Temporary or Reduced Impact effects on the other hand allow players to adapt to random but manageable battlefield conditions. It confronts the player with adversity whilemaintaining his ability to overcome that diversity, by adjusting their playstyle, tactics and strategies to this new condition, and thereby expands upon the tactical and strategic aspects of the game where the current dynamic allows nothing but solemn indignation and begrudging acceptance of the player's unavoidable fate.

Thank you for your time.

Signed,
Zverofaust

I have rarely read anything on any Mechwarrior/Battletech title that made me stop and go "Wut u say?"..

This is one of those times...

Seriously bro, were you on drugs when you wrote this?

Edited by SpiralRazor, 14 February 2013 - 08:34 AM.