80 replies to this topic

[Nightcrept]

They just need to break up its effects over more items and spread their use out over more mechs.

For instance we are all aware of the 4 ecm raven pre-mades running around. If each type of raven could carry only one of the ecm units then to get all the effects you would need to run each type of raven.

Losing one or moving out of its range would cause you to lose the benefits from that ravens specific ecm module.

It would require a lot more strategy and teamwork while still being very powerful.

[Kyone Akashi]

zverofaust, on 13 February 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

ECM in its current implementation is OK, but just that: OK, average, uninspired. It's there, and it adds a nebulous "something" to the game, but doesn't really attract much attention other than passive acceptance or impassioned loathing.
So here's some ideas: [...]

I think in your list of reactions you are forgetting about the "passionate love" players that result in somewhat above 50% of all Lights currently played being 3Ls or 2Ds. Also, your "Targeted ECM Mode" still results in a massive advantage in 1-on-1 combat and continued monopolization of SSRMs. In fact, it would make the already feared "Raven flocks" even worse as then you cannot even counter them with TAG anymore. No thanks, I'll pass.

Also, you have not yet explained what your problem is with ECM as it works on the tabletop.

Here is how it would translate to MWO:

• Prevents Sensor Scan: The Guardian suite prevents enemy 'Mechs from scanning the variant, loadout or registry (name and IFF) of any BattleMech within 180m range of ECM.
  
• Disrupts C3: Upon entering the 180m zone, enemy 'Mechs will no longer share unit position data on their map/minimap. Additionally, as they are now affected by #1, they cease being able to discern between friend or foe, having to rely on visual identification and battlefield awareness.
  
• Disrupts Narc and Artemis: Self-explanatory, already implemented.

And that's it. No effect on targeting or missile locks. Yes, that means you still need to mount AMS and/or use cover when dealing with MWO's damage-buffed LRMs. Yes, this also means you may accidentally target your teammates in a brawl with a nearby hostile ECM. Get used to memorize your team's 'Mechs and paintjobs, and use appropriate reactive tactics.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 13 February 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

Omni 13, on 13 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Then again ECM isn't so much broken as it is overpowered.... broken implies it's not working as intended (which according to the devs it is) which leave the explenation that it's OP which it is..no ifs ands or buts its overpowered for the cost/weight/crit slots required not to mention the fact that it has no downside what so ever.

No, it's not.

[Zero Neutral]

Znail, on 13 February 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Really, any basis for this?

ECM does not counter LRM, it cloaks friendly units from radar, which also prevents target lock.

ECM is not meant to be a balance for LRM since ECM can be countered by a TAG laser.

LRM are still viable.

ECM also affects SSRM, because they require target lock.

ECM mechs can also equip LRM, thus making your point that, "ECM was implemented as a balance for LRM," null.

ECM was introduced as the catalyst for the electronic warfare system.

Omni 13, on 13 February 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

not to mention I don't like the idea of modules being the counter to ECM as that leaves new or slighlty more casual players at a big disatvantage, the hard counter to ECM (I think a hard counter for a hard counter is fair) should be something you can buy with CBills that costs around the same as the ECM suit itself.

Modules never counter ECM, only help to negate the effects. The hard counter costs FAR less than ECM, it's called TAG. The other hard counter costs exactly the same as ECM, it's called ECM.

[OneEyed Jack]

I have all the ECM mechs except the Cicada, but I have a lot of mechs and mostly play non-ECM, direct-fire based mechs. I also have some missile boats, which I'd say I probably play about as often as the ECM mechs. I'm pretty much on both sides of the coin.

That said, I think people blow the effects of ECM way out of proportion. I think it could certainly use some tweaks, but it's hardly game-breaking.

I'd start with allowing allowing targeting of mechs at range. Even if it still blocks locks and gave you no information, I think targeting for the purposes of target designation are important. Also, I think allowing SSRMs to dumbfire is a gimme.

Honestly though, I think the fog of war aspect is the largest effect and most difficult to deal with.

As for the anti-missile-lock role, it's a bit much for representing the TT version of ECM. Overall I don't have a problem with it, but I do think that TAG should be moved out of taking a hardpoint. Heh, then they could remove the hardpoints from mechs that currently get one for having a stock TAG (3L).

[Zero Neutral]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 February 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

I have all the ECM mechs except the Cicada, but I have a lot of mechs and mostly play non-ECM, direct-fire based mechs. I also have some missile boats, which I'd say I probably play about as often as the ECM mechs. I'm pretty much on both sides of the coin.

That said, I think people blow the effects of ECM way out of proportion. I think it could certainly use some tweaks, but it's hardly game-breaking.

I'd start with allowing allowing targeting of mechs at range. Even if it still blocks locks and gave you no information, I think targeting for the purposes of target designation are important. Also, I think allowing SSRMs to dumbfire is a gimme.

Honestly though, I think the fog of war aspect is the largest effect and most difficult to deal with.

As for the anti-missile-lock role, it's a bit much for representing the TT version of ECM. Overall I don't have a problem with it, but I do think that TAG should be moved out of taking a hardpoint. Heh, then they could remove the hardpoints from mechs that currently get one for having a stock TAG (3L).

The suggestions that you provided are design decisions which I am sure are considered by the team involved within PGI.

[Fitzbattleaxe]

The problem with ecm has nothing to do with missiles and lock ons. It's that it can destroy all team cohesion in a pug match. I have no difficulty killing ravens, but if I don't know where my team is, I haven't a chance. I can't count on one of the other players on my team having ecm to counter, and I can't count on everyone to use the chat window. I'd rather fight a pug match that was 6 vs 8 than one where one team has ecm and the other does not.

[Nightcrept]

Zero Neutral, on 13 February 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

ECM does not counter LRM, it cloaks friendly units from radar, which also prevents target lock.

ECM is not meant to be a balance for LRM since ECM can be countered by a TAG laser.

LRM are still viable.

ECM also affects SSRM, because they require target lock.

ECM mechs can also equip LRM, thus making your point that, "ECM was implemented as a balance for LRM," null.

ECM was introduced as the catalyst for the electronic warfare system.

Modules never counter ECM, only help to negate the effects. The hard counter costs FAR less than ECM, it's called TAG. The other hard counter costs exactly the same as ECM, it's called ECM.

Tag? Seriously? You have to be a real noob to be tagged for the entire time it takes lrms to hit you. I have never ever in any game been successfully tagged. Now how hard is it to use ecm?

[OneEyed Jack]

Zero Neutral, on 13 February 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

ECM does not counter LRM, it cloaks friendly units from radar, which also prevents target lock.

ECM is not meant to be a balance for LRM since ECM can be countered by a TAG laser.

ECM mechs can also equip LRM, thus making your point that, "ECM was implemented as a balance for LRM," null.

Modules never counter ECM, only help to negate the effects. The hard counter costs FAR less than ECM, it's called TAG. The other hard counter costs exactly the same as ECM, it's called ECM.

I think you are incorrect and that some of the "extra" effects added to ECM compared to it's TT usage were specifically to add a limiting factor to LRMs.

Yes, LRMs are still viable.

TAG is not a hard counter for ECM, as it only works in certain situations. A hard counter would, by definition, always counters the effects.

The fact that some ECM mechs can carry LRMs in no way makes it not be a balancing factor for LRMs, since it in no way helps your LRMS get past enemy ECM (though it can help friendly LRMs if you are inside the bubble and running Counter mode).

I have no idea if they've even considered the fluff behind what kind of tracking system the missiles use, but it most certainly wouldn't be radar, since it's about useless on land at ground level.

[Commander Kobold]

Zero Neutral, on 13 February 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Modules never counter ECM, only help to negate the effects. The hard counter costs FAR less than ECM, it's called TAG. The other hard counter costs exactly the same as ECM, it's called ECM.

TAG is a poor counter to ECM it's barely a counter it only removes one effect from the ECM suit ,the invonerability to lock ons at range.

Edited by Omni 13, 13 February 2013 - 02:36 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 February 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

I think you are incorrect and that some of the "extra" effects added to ECM compared to it's TT usage were specifically to add a limiting factor to LRMs.

Yes, LRMs are still viable.

TAG is not a hard counter for ECM, as it only works in certain situations. A hard counter would, by definition, always counters the effects.

The fact that some ECM mechs can carry LRMs in no way makes it not be a balancing factor for LRMs, since it in no way helps your LRMS get past enemy ECM (though it can help friendly LRMs if you are inside the bubble and running Counter mode).

I have no idea if they've even considered the fluff behind what kind of tracking system the missiles use, but it most certainly wouldn't be radar, since it's about useless on land at ground level.

I do not respond to comparisons between how some thing works in MWO and how some thing works on TT... I hold them completely separate. TT only inspires additions to MWO, it is not a gospel.

Back to topic:

If ECM were made to balance LRM, then ECM mechs would not be able to equip LRM since this would create a monopoly over LRM use. If ECM were made to balance SSRM, then ECM mechs would not be able to equip SSRM since this could create a monopoly over SSRM use. The latter is an actual problem since no short range counter to ECM currently exists, whereas the former is not a problem because a long range counter to ECM does exist.

Omni 13, on 13 February 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

TAG is a poor counter to ECM it's barely a counter it only removes one effect from the ECM suit ,the invonerability to lock ons at range.

In other words, TAG is working as intended. TAG negates every single effect of ECM on the targeted mech aside from increased lock-on time.

[OneEyed Jack]

Nightcrept, on 13 February 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Tag? Seriously? You have to be a real noob to be tagged for the entire time it takes lrms to hit you. I have never ever in any game been successfully tagged. Now how hard is it to use ecm?

Really? You think that utter BS convinces anyone? Unless the only thing mechs you've ever played are ECM lights and you completely avoid each and every large open area on any map, then that statement is flat impossible. And even in that case it would be unlikely.

[Zero Neutral]

Nightcrept, on 13 February 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Tag? Seriously? You have to be a real noob to be tagged for the entire time it takes lrms to hit you. I have never ever in any game been successfully tagged. Now how hard is it to use ecm?

That's a clear lie, but ok.

ECM? Seriously? You have to be a real noob to be deterred by ECM. I have never in any game been deterred by ECM, even when using LRM. Now how hard is it to get around ECM?

[Commander Kobold]

Zero Neutral, on 13 February 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

ECM does not counter LRM, it cloaks friendly units from radar, which also prevents target lock.
Yes ECM does counter LRMS that's its current priary use.

ECM is not meant to be a balance for LRM since ECM can be countered by a TAG laser.
The logic here is seriously flawed

LRM are still viable.
Only if the enemy team doesn't have ECM or their ECM carrier is an atlas or you have more ECM than them.

ECM also affects SSRM, because they require target lock.
Thanks captain obvious

ECM mechs can also equip LRM, thus making your point that, "ECM was implemented as a balance for LRM," null.
Again your logic is flawed

ECM was introduced as the catalyst for the electronic warfare system.
It's the only part of the electronics warfare system, the E-W system doesn't exist as of yet there is only ECM and the pi$$ poor counters for ECM (Tag if they're slow or ECM itself)

[Volthorne]

The sheer amount of idiocy in this thread is why we can't have nice things.

[Kyone Akashi]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 February 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

As for the anti-missile-lock role, it's a bit much for representing the TT version of ECM. Overall I don't have a problem with it, but I do think that TAG should be moved out of taking a hardpoint.

The Guardian suite does not block missile locks in TT. That's what really surprised me - the MWO version does so much more than it should, and it obviously creates a huge controversy by affecting the game the way it does.

[Commander Kobold]

Zero Neutral, on 13 February 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

In other words, TAG is working as intended. TAG negates every single effect of ECM on the targeted mech aside from increased lock-on time.

The question wasn't wether TAG was working as intended, it's the fact that its a poor counter to ECM and requires a lot more effort for the mech attempting to counter than it does to run the ECM suit which is none. (the only exceptions being Atlai because they're slow, and some cicadas ((although I see far fewer Cicada ECM carriers than ravens/atlai)) on top of that tag doesn't work if/when you get jammed and staying out of the bubble isn't always an option (comandos/ravens/cicadas are all generally faster than everything else)

Volthorne, on 13 February 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

The sheer amount of idiocy in this thread is why we can't have nice things.

you say soo much and yet soo little.

Edited by Omni 13, 13 February 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Codejack]

Josef Nader, on 13 February 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

[HOW TO FIX ECM]

[Kyone Akashi]

Besides, TAG is useless when the ECM carrier has the TAGging 'Mech in range of its bubble.

Which means that the only ECM-Mech that can be reliably overridden by TAG is the Atlas. Which is the one ECM-Mech that nobody is complaining about.

[Deamhan]

What does the ECM do....

What it does is reduce the sensor range of enemy mechs in a rather unique way. What I mean by unique is that instead of effecting the enemy's sensors directly, it sorta reduces the mechs sig radius (and those within the bubble) meaning that the enemy has to get closer before they can target you.

Now if this was the only thing that it did, that wouldn't be too bad.

It also has additional effects to enemy mechs directly, provided they are caught in the bubble. It messes with your radar and IFF, it prevents you from locking, nullifies TAG, and maybe one or two that I can't think of right now.


The ECM can disrupt enemy ECM but will cost you the above mentioned protection upon yourself and your team to do so.


If these were all seperate functions and not just the last, then this wouldn't be as bad. Preferably these should be seperate modules with one of two possibilities added in.

1. Have the three (yes three, disrupt should also be its own) be seperate modules. This means you have to pick just one of three to equip to the ECM hard point.

2. Make them omni modules that can be equipped to any hard point and remove the ECM hard point. This will allow you to pack all three, but for each one you take, it's a weapon left behind. The eWar modules become your weapon of choice.

Even if they simply seperated the two "protective" aspects so that it has 3 modes to cycle between would be better, provided they removed the ECM hard point and made it use a weapon hard point.

Honestly, the ECM module IS a type of weapon. It SHOULD use a weapon hard point. Especially if you consider TAG and NARC, both of which are weapon enhancers but still use up a weapon hard point.

Or they could leave it as is, and give non ECM mechs dedicated TAG/NARC hard points. Oh and considering that both ECM and TAG can simply operate indefinitely where as NARC relies on ammo. NARC should last for as long as the mech it is attached to is alive OR the body part it is attached to is completely destroyed. If the body part is the CT, well I guess it'll last until that mech is dead.