200 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

shabowie, on 14 February 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

Absolutely. A really deep heat capacity and severely gimped dissipation ability is the biggest balance problem with the game. TT heat system is vastly better balanced and richer.

And some people will just never get it. In that "vastly better balanced and richer" you ROLL DICE ffs. Perhaps it is time to just get with the new program or go play MW:Tactics. They ROLL DICE over there... (Holy Smokes Batman)

[MiG77]

Splinters, on 14 February 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

There was a time when they tested DHS' as the full 2.0 in closed beta and essentially heat became a non-issue for almost all mechs and it basically ruined balance.

There never was such a time that all DHS were fully 2.0 and I was in CB starting from may. They did "test" 2.0 DHS internally.

Edited by MiG77, 14 February 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Steven Dixon]

They tested it internally, and I understand that a lot of people are very frustrated that they were told that 2.0 DHSs won't work but they didn't get to see it themselves. I'm a little afraid of what we would find if they did. After all if their internal testers say that it was broken imagine what would happen if the min/maxers got a hold of them, they can break systems that the testers thought were fine.

[Bishop Steiner]

FiveDigits, on 14 February 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

*blah blah blah fancy graphs blah blah blah*

yep. I believe all this is known, and has been picked apart since "DHS" were first introduced. Kudos for the pretty charts though.

I WAS of the "give us 2.0 DHS" brigade for a long while. But one thing got me thinking otherwise.

The absolutely broken boating ability of the Stalker to mount 6 PPC/ER PPC. Right now they can hurt you bad and kill you dead, but pay for that with almost always shutting down and being vulnerable for a time. While an old school TT fanboi from back in the day, those DHS of TT never took into account the thought of firing your PPCs 3 times per every 10 seconds.

Do any of use really want PPC boat Stalkers that DON'T shutdown every volley (aside of course, for those who drive them, obviously)?

In the months we have had this system, I think the majority of us have adapted quite well, TBH. And the only people "penalized" are serial boaters like LightningBoat Stalkers and SplatCats. Annnnnnnnd, my lactose intolerance keeps me from feeling any sympathy to those who pilot CheezeMechs.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 February 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Splinters, on 14 February 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

There was a time when they tested DHS' as the full 2.0 in closed beta and essentially heat became a non-issue for almost all mechs and it basically ruined balance.

I understand OP's post, but having played this game long enough, this game would tilt heavily in favor of assault mechs that there would be no little reason to pilot anything but an assault since you could dps and DHS your way to ensure that lights and mediums were completely outclassed.

Canon exists for a TT game that is a good reference point, but it does not mean that it works well in a tactical simulation. In many ways, following canon is likely to cause game imbalance than bring it back to balance.

Some guys may want big stompy mechs going toe to toe in a heavy-weight match-up, but the Real World of BT/MW was staffed primarily of lights and mediums so in some ways PGI is trying to honor the spirit of canon vs trying to implement canon rules everywhere and I agree the decision. As they balance weapons it is getting clear that true DHS' will imbalance and remove lights and mediums from a common mech stable, instead it would be just a stepping stone to getting an assault.

-S

No, DHS 2.0 were never released in Closed Beta, they were always 1.4 except for a brief bug where Engine DHS were 1.4 but externals were 2.0.

Right now DHS 1.4 has increased the GunWarrior balance of MWO. Gun configs never overheat even with no additional DHS (except AC2 boats) and I have to tell you that is so un-Battletech it reeks.

Maybe they should make Engine DHS 1.4 and External DHS 2.0. All you folks boasting the benefits of Heat Balance from DHS 1.4 should be overjoyed with that since all mech configs would start to have actual Battletech Heat Dissapation problems, even the holy-gunwarrior configs. Only the Gauss Rifle and Machine Guns are supposed to be heat neutral guns or close to it. If PGI did this they would actually get a grasp of how much efficiancy the DHS 1.4 needed to be raised to. And this would not hurt little mechs since they run under the 250 engine size usually.

Anyway, make Engine DHS 1.4 and you would see how much that bar needed to be raised. Be funny to see all the gunboats overheating at DHS 1.4.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lightfoot, on 14 February 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

No, DHS 2.0 were never released in Closed Beta, they were always 1.4 except for a brief bug where Engine DHS were 1.4 but externals were 2.0.

Right now DHS 1.4 has increased the GunWarrior balance of MWO. Gun configs never overheat even with no additional DHS (except AC2 boats) and I have to tell you that is so un-Battletech it reeks.

Maybe they should make Engine DHS 1.4 and External DHS 2.0. All you folks boasting the benefits of Heat Balance from DHS 1.4 should be overjoyed with that since all mech configs would start to have actual Battletech Heat Dissapation problems, even the holy-gunwarrior configs. Only the Gauss Rifle and Machine Guns are supposed to be heat neutral guns or close to it. If PGI did this they would actually get a grasp of how much efficiancy the DHS 1.4 needed to be raised to. And this would not hurt little mechs since they run under the 250 engine size usually.

Anyway, make Engine DHS 1.4 and you would see how much that bar needed to be raised. Be funny to see all the gunboats overheating at DHS 1.4.

Correct, DHS were not released for US, in Closed Beta. They were tested in house at 2.0, and determined to be wildly broken. Somethings are blatant enough they don't need the community to point it out (and other times *coughECMcough* they AREN'T so quick on the uptake....).

Consider, in particular, when the Clans Launch. Most of their weapons are lighter. Take up less crits.

Consider the Timber Wolf Chassis.
Stock, it has a 350 rated engine, and 15 DHS. 14 of those are inside the engine. 28 tons of Pod Space
The Mech has 31 open crits.

Let's say we toss in, oh 4 ER Large Laser (since everyone so loves to boat)16 tons, 4 Crits), leaving us with 12 tons opf space. Which we can now use to add 12 MORE DHS (27 DHS), and still have crit space left over. That would be bad enough with the 1.4 DHS to have to face, as most of the closest Inner Sphere Analogues would at best have 19-20 DHS (Approximating have about 34 SHS) whilst the Timber Wolf would approximate having 43-44 SHS. Make those true Doubles and the advantage spikes from 38-40 approx. SHS vs 54 SHS in capacity and dissipation.

All in a mech that is also 10 kph faster than the Inner Sphere version, and doesn't insta-die if it loses a torso.

Or for a Splatta-MadCat
4 STREAK SRM 6 ( 12 tons, 8 crits)
4 tons ammo (16 tons total, 12 crits)
and
5 ER MEdium Laser (near perfect clones of the IS Large Laser, but weighing 1 ton; 21tons, 17 total crits)
7 DHS (22 total, 28 tons and 31 crits)
or
2 ER Large Lasers (24 tons, 14 total crits)
4 more DHS (19 total)

and those are just off the top of my head builds.

Them will make Splat Cats and PPC Stalkers look about as scary as Barbie dolls.

(or a model I would love to test w/ 2 Ultra AC/2, 4 Er Medium Lasers)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 February 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[Rofl]

SpiralRazor, on 14 February 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

They are not "Fine" as you put it....smaller mechs utilizing only the heat sinks in there engines(Allowing them to Endo) get much more of a benefit then larger mechs who have to mount them externally and often CANNOT take Endo because Competing Space.


So...the way to fix this is that Engine sinks provide 1.4, and externally mounted sinks provide 2.0.


Or all Heat sinks provide 1.8 and thats that... But clearly, unless you are slow, DHS as they are implemented right now are not fine.

So... larger mechs get it worse? And yet my 'Phract does fine. In fact... I'm quite content with my Stalker 5 x M Laser 5 x SRM6 build as far as heat goes. It would be, imo, slightly OP with the heat differences you are suggesting.

[Orgasmo]

They will seriously need to implement 2.0 DHS when Clans come into the equation, just from the massive heat Clans weapon generate. As of now, the system is disadvantageous to energy heavy builds.

[Rofl]

I disagree, Orgasmo. CDHS are smaller, their weapons are more heat efficient per point of damage, and smaller, usually weighing less, too. You think that because the clan weapons are so much better than their IS counterparts that the heat system needs to be reworked so they can kill you that much better/faster?

What?

Also, pure energy builds need to learn to regulate the heat they deliver, just like ammo dependent builds need to regulate ammo consumption. Albeit, ammo users can dump more ammo than energy users can dump heat sinks, but ammo dependent weapons ALSO generate heat, whereas energy uses no ammo, ever (don't mention plasma rifle ). Certain weapons like Gauss may offset the system, which is why other mechanisms were used to balance it out.

I have a pure energy raven, it's fine. Oh, it's light so my DHS loadout is comparatively OP? I have a 'phract and stalker also with pure energy loadouts. They are some of my best mechs (Aside from the 3L which is another topic altogether, and a dakkaphract for personal tastes). It really is in the hands of the player to make the most out of what we have.

We, the energy boat users, can already do some pretty silly things. We need better heatsinks like a streak SRM light needs better ECM (which is to say, not at all)

Orgasmo, on 14 February 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

They will seriously need to implement 2.0 DHS when Clans come into the equation, just from the massive heat Clans weapon generate. As of now, the system is disadvantageous to energy heavy builds.

[MustrumRidcully]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

yep. I believe all this is known, and has been picked apart since "DHS" were first introduced. Kudos for the pretty charts though.

I WAS of the "give us 2.0 DHS" brigade for a long while. But one thing got me thinking otherwise.

The absolutely broken boating ability of the Stalker to mount 6 PPC/ER PPC. Right now they can hurt you bad and kill you dead, but pay for that with almost always shutting down and being vulnerable for a time. While an old school TT fanboi from back in the day, those DHS of TT never took into account the thought of firing your PPCs 3 times per every 10 seconds.

Do any of use really want PPC boat Stalkers that DON'T shutdown every volley (aside of course, for those who drive them, obviously)?

In the months we have had this system, I think the majority of us have adapted quite well, TBH. And the only people "penalized" are serial boaters like LightningBoat Stalkers and SplatCats. Annnnnnnnd, my lactose intolerance keeps me from feeling any sympathy to those who pilot CheezeMechs.

You know what is really allowing you to run this 6 PPC build? That you probably have a heat capacity beyond 60. (It just takes 10 engine DHS and about 7 external DHS to get that).
That allows you to make these mighty 60 damage blows.

Imagine your capacity was just 20 points lower. Then you could never fire 6 PPCs together without overheating. YOu would instead always chain fire, even if your dissipation was twice as high as it it's now or you'd be perfectly heat neutral, or overcooled. But the heat capacity boosts from heat sinks are so high that alpha strike builds are rewarded, and on top of that, you get all the benefits of convergence.

[Death Mallet]

Here's a good fix for the Double Heat Sink issue:

http://mwomercs.com/...simplification/

[MiG77]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 February 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

You know what is really allowing you to run this 6 PPC build? That you probably have a heat capacity beyond 60. (It just takes 10 engine DHS and about 7 external DHS to get that).
That allows you to make these mighty 60 damage blows.

Imagine your capacity was just 20 points lower. Then you could never fire 6 PPCs together without overheating. YOu would instead always chain fire, even if your dissipation was twice as high as it it's now or you'd be perfectly heat neutral, or overcooled. But the heat capacity boosts from heat sinks are so high that alpha strike builds are rewarded, and on top of that, you get all the benefits of convergence.

I have always wondered why heat sink increase your heat capasity at all. IMO it could be just fixed value regardless number of HS. That would fix many boating issues.

Edited by MiG77, 14 February 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[Viper69]

hashinshin, on 14 February 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

I remember when this was a relevant topic.

I was going to post a snide remark about the relevance of you and your heritage but really your ignorant post says more than I could. Thanks for saving me some time.

I hate to be negative but I will try to stay constructive. In all seriousness, it is a problem. PGI has attempted to make the matches last longer by increasing armor, increasing heat and decreasing dissipation. In the same instance to try to stop large mechs from dominating while they try to balance role warfare they cripple DHS so heavy hitting mechs dont wreak havoc on the field. They then added a adhoc ECM to further balance out long range mechs from dominating and the way they fix that is by giving PPCs a gimmick of shutting down ECM.

Its a spiral of cause and effect they keep introducing fixes by circumventing the fix by introducing unneeded effects elsewhere. Larger maps would balance out ponderous mechs boating hot weapons and destroying light and medium mechs because those mechs would be able to avoid direct interaction with said big mechs. Right now we are in a fishbowl ripping each others throats out. The real common denominator that causes the most issue is the small maps. With larger maps all these issues would never have arose.

[Yokaiko]

Splinters, on 14 February 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

There was a time when they tested DHS' as the full 2.0 in closed beta and essentially heat became a non-issue for almost all mechs and it basically ruined balance.

That is crap, anyone that can run a calculator knows good and well that was crap. Anything not a CTF-4X with AC5s or Guasspult would still have to mind the heatbar.  All of them, the Jenners, SSRM ravens and commandos wouldn't, but neither has to with 10 true DHSs anyway.

Splinters, on 14 February 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

I understand OP's post, but having played this game long enough, this game would tilt heavily in favor of assault mechs that there would be no little reason to pilot anything but an assault since you could dps and DHS your way to ensure that lights and mediums were completely outclassed.

Mediums are outclassed by simple speed restrictions, everyone screamed from their atlases about fast hunchbacks and CN9-As that were mangling them from around 116kph, so we go the stupid engine limits.
Fact is that HBK and CN9 are BOTH on the very bottom end of the speed scale for 3050 mediums, with 84kph being average. THAT is why you don't see many, they simply aren't fast enough or packing enough armor to deal with a heavy or assault that knows how to aim.

Even when hunchbacks were running around at 120kph they were a hell of a lot easier to hit than a Jenner is at 152.

Splinters, on 14 February 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Some guys may want big stompy mechs going toe to toe in a heavy-weight match-up, but the Real World of BT/MW was staffed primarily of lights and mediums so in some ways PGI is trying to honor the spirit of canon vs trying to implement canon rules everywhere and I agree the decision. As they balance weapons it is getting clear that true DHS' will imbalance and remove lights and mediums from a common mech stable, instead it would be just a stepping stone to getting an assault.

True DHS and uncapping the mediums would make it worthwile to **** a medium and use it.  Right now you can fit a relatively heavy weapon load on a 50 tonner with a 260 standard, there is no advantage to upping the engine and going for a heavier loadout because you just screw yourself by getting side torso'd and you STILL can't fit enough DHS to balance out an energy heavy loadout.

Do you see HBK-4Ps and CN9-ALs outside of trials anymore really?  No, there is no point, and the fine combination of lack of speed, lack of armor, and lack of firepower (excluding Cicada and the CN9-D) are the main reason.

There are 4-6 heavies that have near the same speed and double the firepower EVERY game though.  Why would that be.

MiG77, on 14 February 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

I have always wondered why heat sink increase your heat capasity at all. IMO it could be just fixed value regardless number of HS. That would fix many boating issues.

There is always going to be boating.  

Part of what I called out as a balance issue way back in like July was the fact that there wasn't a downside to stacking a pile to light weapons (the Slas -4P) which could have been remedied with range and burn times, instead they capped the engines.

Edited by Yokaiko, 14 February 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[MiG77]

Thontor, on 14 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Because essentially, that's how it worked in TT. If you extrapolite the 10 second turn as happening in real time.

Let's say you have a stock AWS-8Q.. you have 3 PPCs (and a small laser) and 28 heat sinks

At the start of the 10 seconds represented by the turn, you fire your 3 ppcs and your heat spikes to 30. Then over the next 10 seconds your heat sinks dissapate 28 heat, leaving 2 heat.. and this is what is shown on your heat scale at the end of the turn.

so essentially, the TT heat scale is 30 + Heat dissipated by your heat sinks per 10 seconds.

If it was just a fixed heat capacity of 30 in TT, your heat would spike to 30.. and this would shut you down immediately.

Um, heat dissipation is exactly what does that in MWO. That your shutdown heat treshold increases in MWO with each heat sink is different mechanism.

Edited by MiG77, 14 February 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Pihb]

If you can't manage your heat as the game stands now. You need more practice.

[MiG77]

Yokaiko, on 14 February 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

There is always going to be boating.

Part of what I called out as a balance issue way back in like July was the fact that there wasn't a downside to stacking a pile to light weapons (the Slas -4P) which could have been remedied with range and burn times, instead they capped the engines.

Sure, but making heat capasity fixed 45 (just example), would pretty much rule out 6PPC alpha builds etc

[MiG77]

Thontor, on 14 February 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

The systems are essentially the same... Imagine instead of 3 PPCs, the awesome had 6.. And still had 28 heat sinks.

If you fire 6, you shut down at the end of the turn because you would still have 32 heat remaining... Over 30 = Enough to trigger a shutdown

But if you fire 5, you only have 22 heat at the end of the turn, no mandatory shutdown

Bring the same situational MWO... 28 heat sinks = 58 heat capacity. Lets assume PPCs still generate 10 heat for this hypothetical situation. If you fire all 6, you shut down immediately. But if you fire 5 it only brings you up to 50/58 (86.2%) and you don't shut down.. And 10 seconds after firing you are at... You guessed it, 22 heat (37.9%)

Where it totally fails is that MWO dont follow TT rules in heat generation (weapons shoot faster and generate different heat per shot). This result overall better "alpha builds" and less efficient "DPS builds" compared to TT.

Edited by MiG77, 14 February 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[AndyHill]

Steven Dixon, on 14 February 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

That's true that the effect definitely might have been unintentional to benefit lighter mechs and I would personally be interested if anyone had any suggestions to other ways to balance energy weapons (this is not a passive aggressive insult, I really would be).

Many points can be argued in favor of a decision to boost lights and mediums, but I don't believe that to be the case. I'm not working for PGI so I don't have the time or interest (that would change if PGI would indicate interest in at least reading the effort), so I don't know exactly how I'd balance energy weapons. Personally I would go back to TT values and low heat cap and see how things progress from there. IIRC the current implementation is originally a bug, and what bothers me is that I don't really see a controlled balancing effort. But then again, they don't show us everything.

Splinters, on 14 February 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

There was a time when they tested DHS' as the full 2.0 in closed beta and essentially heat became a non-issue for almost all mechs and it basically ruined balance.

This issue has been proven false with simple mathematics. The legendary 3 second Jenner is one of the most bizarre statements from PGI I've ever seen, because that's exactly what we have now and you can decide for yourself if our Jenners are a game-breaking monstrosity because of their firepower. For the most heat hungry assaults the difference would be in the region of up to 20% more heat dissipation, which is quite a bit, but doesn't really sound like a massive change to me.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

The absolutely broken boating ability of the Stalker to mount 6 PPC/ER PPC. Right now they can hurt you bad and kill you dead, but pay for that with almost always shutting down and being vulnerable for a time. While an old school TT fanboi from back in the day, those DHS of TT never took into account the thought of firing your PPCs 3 times per every 10 seconds.

Do any of use really want PPC boat Stalkers that DON'T shutdown every volley (aside of course, for those who drive them, obviously)?

This is not a problem of heat dissipation, but heat capacity. The 1.4 heat sinks absolutely do not stop these monstrosities, 2.0 would make them about 15-20% more powerful (sorry don't have time to check out the exact math). The overriding issue and in my mind the biggest problem in the game balance is the extremely high heat cap. The PPC boat is probably the best example of how things go wrong when you allow extreme pinpoint alphas in a simulator where you have super accuracy instead of dice throwing. If the cap was low enough and penalties for going over high enough, the PPC boats would be in trouble.

[Fuzzbox]

WolvesX, on 14 February 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

German Presicion.

Doesn't exist anymore, us last two generations messed it up. Thankfully there are still a few oldies in Germany who knows about this, so please order your beamers and mercs before they retire