54 replies to this topic

[WolvesX]

Can we agree on that?

You think I'm not StarCaptain Wolves, but Captain Obvious?
Why isn't this fixed yet?

Edited by WolvesX, 14 February 2013 - 04:29 AM.

[Aym]

[101011]

I don't know, the Hunchback 4SP is pretty darn good, even stock.

[Escef]

My K2 pult has less firepower than a stock K2. Better armor and heat efficiency, though.

Most of the stock mechs aren't outright bad, including the trial mechs. Far from great, but I've seen worse ideas drop in live play.

[Windsaw]

I'd say on average, about 75% are bad. Most rotations seem to have one build that I wouldn't mind using myself.

Of course none of them are stellar, but they aren't supposed to be.

[xhrit]

Escef, on 14 February 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

Most of the stock mechs aren't outright bad, including the trial mechs. Far from great, but I've seen worse ideas drop in live play.

The other day I saw a Cataphract in a drop equipped with nothing but machineguns, flamers, and streaks.

[SgtMagor]

only tried the Atlas so far in a few drops, I think the mech rocks. still a have a ways to go before I get used to piloting a mech in MWO but I dropped 2 mechs in a matter of seconds in one match, alpha'd one and manually chained fired my weapons at another, bam 2 dead, the AS-7D is pretty good mech afaik.

[Stormwolf]

Stock mechs aren't optimized, they can perform the tasks they were designed for.

[MustrumRidcully]

It's Game Design 101. To make sure that players actually learn the game, you give them beginner items that are really difficult to use. Every good game does it that way. Look at WoW, with its Dragon-Hunting Grind missions in the starter areas. If you make a Paladin, he's equipped with a magic staff he can't even use and a tattered robe, and his first quest is to find 5 dragon scales. (And no, they don't grow on trees). It makes people comfortable with the respawn mechanics and all.

Trial Mechs are perfect also for other reasons. The fact that they overheat so rapidly will ensure that no CoD or HAWKEN player will manage to play this game, so that only true Battletech fans will be around. That ensures a friendly, cooperative atmosphere.

But I am not sure it's working out well enough, I have the impression that to many of those still somehow manage to ge through. maybe Single Heat Sinks should only grant 0.07 Dissipation and a 0.7 Bonus to Heat Capacity.

Mustrum "Nur die Harten kommen in den Garten" Ridcully

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 14 February 2013 - 05:07 AM.

[Escef]

xhrit, on 14 February 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

The other day I saw a Cataphract in a drop equipped with nothing but machineguns, flamers, and streaks.

Just a few minutes ago I saw a K2 'pult with a PPC... No, seriously, just a single PPC. No destroyed weapons red'd out, or anything.

[Shazarad]

I like trial mechs sometimes as it is effectively 4 extra mechs in my bays that I can drive around when I'm bored with my current mechs and want quite literally a trial experience of a mech I may not own.

Also, loadouts are for the most part independent of player skill and thus a bad pilot will do bad with a good loadout, and a good pilot can still do fairly well with a bad loadout. To a point of course, no pilot will do well with just MGs and Flamers on an Atlas, but that is obvious and goes without saying.

Having said that, I have performed well enough with most trial rotations. While I personally don't think some of their choices for trials were the best, it does give new players a sense of things in this game. For instance, one time they had the Cicada with the UAC5 on it for the medium trial. Absolutely thin skinned, almost like no armor on that thing. It gave players a sense of just how fragile you can be if you downgrade armor too much. I didn't think that mech was a particularly wise choice as a trial, because ballistics are hard enough as it is to hit, much less on a mech going 100 KPH +.

Now for real good trial mechs, the Hunchback 4SP is an excellent choice. Very balanced and its role is clearly defined by its weapon loadout. The AS7-D is alright too, if only because it has a crazy amount of armor. The weapons are a bit too scatter brained for me though. The K2 is a nice addition, as it isn't horribly heat inefficient and looks cool and allows the new player to play support and long distance which keeps him/her out of the brawling.

I do wish there was a light mech meant for teaching players how to effectively use speed. Right now, lights require the most skill (even the 3L, as lag shield is not as prevalent anymore). You would think there would be a progression from light to medium to heavy and so on. It's probably the opposite right now

[Kylere]

They are not "bad" they are merely not optimized to be played like a twitch game. Besides which, good players learn on them and then use that knowledge to minmax the mechs they buy.

If you are playing trial mechs past your cadet time, please just stop.

[GT Hawk]

Considering the cash bonous new players get that is enough to buy a new shiney mech rather fast, I don't see the trials as bad. Overall the trial mechs are not specilixed but can be used efectivatly. So not sure how letting someone use a mech without buying them is bad. Alos think of it this way, you borrow your friends Car, besides moving the seat, did you modify the engine, upp the suspension, and put a body kit on it. Nope as it not yours. Wjhy would it be any diffrent then that for trial mechs.

[Wolfways]

Trial mechs are bad only because the heat system is bad.

[Lukoi Banacek]

It's not so much that the trial Mechs are so bad (they are, I agree, less than optimized but for general work they are what they are intended to be...a starter pack). The issue is how they are implemented with new players. The bigger issue is that new players are popped into game with a mechlab that doesn't describe weapons or their effects well (so you have to either have knowledge of BT previously or go to third party sites, neither of which is reasonable to expect of new players if you want to expand your playerbase), popped into matches where many if not the majority of players are already using highly customized, fast Mechs that they are comfortable with and there's no learning period outside of fighting competitively.

It's like taking a skinny underfed kid who's never played football, letting him put on the pads (or rather, figure out how to put on the pads), putting him on the field against state champs and saying "have at it....faster you learn, the better you'll be."

It's a complete turn off to casual players who aren't already franchise fans.

I realize PGI is working towards fixing the Mechlab, considering an offline or tutorial mode etc....but honestly this doesn't help their game get the right kind of attention right now. Doesn't mean there's not hope, but honestly, the only people they're likely to hold on to by doing things this way are the MW/BT fans. Very few "outsiders" in my experience stick with this game past a few weeks even with the cadet bonus. They simply don't understand enough about what's going on in-game mechanics wise, to want to keep suffering through the learning curve.

[Pan Damonium]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 February 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Trial Mechs are perfect also for other reasons. The fact that they overheat so rapidly will ensure that no CoD or HAWKEN player will manage to play this game, so that only true Battletech fans will be around. That ensures a friendly, cooperative atmosphere.

The first part of your post I mostly agreed with, but this part? I am fairly sure that keeping the Hawken & CoD players away to 'ensure a friendly, cooperative atmosphere' was neither their motivation for the way trial mechs are set up, nor actually an effective deterrent. While I wouldnt associate with Hawken players (hah!) I managed to bring a hard core CoD fan to MWO who is still in trial mechs and loving the game. Strangely enough, he is friendly too. The truth is, it is only intelligence that CoD players lack...not friendliness. I really dont know about Hawken players as none exist in my little world and they would be killed on sight if they were around.

Really, I'm just joking...I'm sure you realize that. I really did bring a CoD guy to MWO though. He is actually of average intelligence! ( )

[Joseph Mallan]

What is killing the trail Mechs is the heat system & the definition of "a turn"

A turn is 10 seconds. In that 10 seconds one moves (constantly) Fires ones weapons ONCE, (TT also had physical attacks)weapons reload/recharge AND VENT HEAT. All this in ten seconds. We don't have Physicals, weapons cyclic times were Buffed but Sinks are taking a full turn to vent. Not how the mechanic should work.

[ReissTC]

Not all are bad. The current Atlas is quite nice, and the last time we had a Stalker, as well as the Hunchy 4SP and Cataphract 3D. Stock Centurion-D wasn't too bad, either, if a little bit sparse on the ammo.

Wolfways, on 14 February 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Trial mechs are bad only because the heat system is bad.

Look at the current Cicada-2A, perfect example of this. Completely useless. Used it. Spent most of the match cooling off/melting.

[Furmansky]

My opinion as said before and by many others before me as well.
They are not good mechs of choice for putting rookies without any experience and basic taring in them. They are harsh on heat and load-out, but nothing that at least average trained pilot can't deal with. But they are capable and good mechs overall, actually I think they are great for late stages of training cause they can let a new pilot quickly master, heat management, weapon group control, and patience.

Should those, be Mechs that new players are making first steps, straight on battlefield? NO
Great mechs? most likely NOT
Bad mechs? Absolutely NO, they are actually OK if you learn how to pilot them.

Edited by Furmansky, 14 February 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

So if the heat was more efficient would you be of the same opinion?