No matter how hard I google I can't find an explanation for that.
I read the Pareto Principle page and it stated that 80% of the profits come from 20% of the customers. In other words, it's about finding those few that spend the most and pampering them. "Whales" is a slang term used to describe people who put a ton of money into an F2P title, so my first reaction was that the Pareto Principle is geared towards preserving those big spenders--hence the "save the whales" picture.
"it is a hefty c-bill loss if you decide you want to pick up that chassis again - one that is unfair to a player without a founder's bonus and premium account."
Unfair? How? We PAID. You will not get the full game experience of owning tons of mechs without paying. You get to play and can max out one chassis (or even two) but that's it. If someone hasn't decided to buy anything at all by that point, they aren't going to anyway. BTW, by YOU, I mean any player out there playing for free, not you specifically, as you were a Founder.)
I agree. I originally intended to not spend any money. After playing about 400 games and filling my "Mechbay, I decided that I liked this game enough and will be sticking around, so I plopped down some MC for more bays.
If you insist on enjoying the game for free, accept that you must do so on a limited basis. They are providing the game for you on a limited basis (that is, they give you the game, you pay nothing), so it's fair. If you want more, pay. It's how F2P games ought to be. There must be SOME incentive for players to drop money, or F2P games would never make it.
If you are playing this game for hours and hours and taking fun and enjoyment from it day after day, do you not think that perhaps you should contribute a little something to it?
Mechbays cost next to nothing. If that is all you need to spend real money on then it is a bargain.
Man up and put a few dollars down.
Cheapskate.
While it's perfectly reasonable to assert a person who has played the game for a certain duration is obligated to pay money, at the same time, however, this means the game can no longer be considered free to play, as there is a compulsory 'tax' levied onto players once a certain timeframe is reached or what-not.
I read the Pareto Principle page and it stated that 80% of the profits come from 20% of the customers. In other words, it's about finding those few that spend the most and pampering them. "Whales" is a slang term used to describe people who put a ton of money into an F2P title, so my first reaction was that the Pareto Principle is geared towards preserving those big spenders--hence the "save the whales" picture.
GamerGrandma, on 15 February 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:
While it's perfectly reasonable to assert a person who has played the game for a certain duration is obligated to pay money, at the same time, however, this means the game can no longer be considered free to play, as there is a compulsory 'tax' levied onto players once a certain timeframe is reached or what-not.
Thing is, all F2P games have something in them where you have to pay money or you suffer from the lack of options... Well at least the ones that don't go to a Pay2Win model.
GamerGrandma, on 15 February 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:
While it's perfectly reasonable to assert a person who has played the game for a certain duration is obligated to pay money, at the same time, however, this means the game can no longer be considered free to play, as there is a compulsory 'tax' levied onto players once a certain timeframe is reached or what-not.
>______________>
You're still not obligated to pay for anything except the convenience of a larger bay. You want more space, you buy more space. It's convenient, and good for Pokemech collecting, but it has no impact on individual matches. Pay for more handy/fun/useless stuff for your game, or play it for free and live without the conveniences and toys. That's the system. The only obligation is to decide whether you think your time is worth more or less than your cash.
The person you quoted was saying that if you don't have hamburger money to put into a game that you're playing enough to be your favourite, then that is inherently cheap behaviour. And it is, barring being actually poor, in which case the Video Game Budget should be zero in the first place. Doesn't stop people from playing the game though, even becoming ace pilots in the top tier of play. Players' individual cheapness only keeps them in pocket change, not off the battlefield. There's no "tax" here to keep playing the core game, you pay for extra goodies or you don't. Either way you're still playing on the same fields with the same kit.
GamerGrandma, on 15 February 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:
While it's perfectly reasonable to assert a person who has played the game for a certain duration is obligated to pay money, at the same time, however, this means the game can no longer be considered free to play, as there is a compulsory 'tax' levied onto players once a certain timeframe is reached or what-not.
Which is a strawman until one is actually required to pay, which they aren't. What part of this concept is so difficult?
Personally, I'd say just four mechbays for free would be perfectly fine... if you could unlock Master on a single mech without needing to purchase other variants. It's the requirement to have multiple mechs to "level up" just one of them that kinda irks me.
Personally, I'd say just four mechbays for free would be perfectly fine... if you could unlock Master on a single mech without needing to purchase other variants. It's the requirement to have multiple mechs to "level up" just one of them that kinda irks me.
4 bays is enough to master 2 'Mechs. You need to play for quite a long time to master 2 'Mechs; longer than I play most retail games. I think it's a pretty reasonable amount of free content.
Man, this whole thing got misinterpreted and misconstrued pretty fast. There have been 200 posts since my last reply, and many of them are personal attacks.
People misunderstand, and while I'd like to multiquote everyone who says I'm complaining or that I need to get a job or spend the $7, it would be a post the length of the Golden Gate Bridge.
I'm thinking that people missed what I said on page 8: It's not about me. I paid $120. I have my slots. It's about MechWarrior. It's about the longevity of the game. The devs raised over $5,000,000 with the Founder's program alone. Many people have purchased separate MC packages. The game is very successful with its current audience. But that audience should expand, and effort should be put in to do that.
As I said in mypreviousposts in this thread (yes, there are only three, including the OP), the point I'm trying to get across is that the perception of an F2P wall will turn people off from even trying the game. The perception of P2W will turn people off from even trying the game. Even if it does not exist, if potential customers believe it does, this is an issue.
As an aside, I find the existence of P2W debatable, considering the Flame, and Ilya Muromets are MC-only, and Flame has a truly wonderful hardpoint layout, and Muromets, while not overpowered in hardpoint layout, has different options that no other Cataphract chassis brings to the table. To all the people talking about WoT: No, it is nowhere near as bad as the Type 59 (which was removed from World of Tanks last January, but not before the damage was done).
The problem is not that 'Mech bays are $1.75 - it's that the choice to pay or sell is forced upon the player after a certain amount of time played. When they are acquirable in another fashion, even a ridiculous fashion, the player can work towards it without hitting a wall. And then, if they tire of working towards it, then they take the choice in their mind and make the decision they want to make.
The difference here is mostly mental, but it's very important. You want to empower players, and let them feel that they have the choice in the matter. This is critical to player retention. Most people don't look at that because we're all BT/MW diehards that will stay with the game regardless of if it's well-designed or not, but other demographics, such as people who are being introduced to MechWarrior through this game, or people who haven't heard of MW.
Grinding for a while, getting a bit tired of it, and deciding to drop a couple bucks on a 'Mech bay (which is really $7, though they should let you pay $1.75 each) is better than playing, playing, playing, acquiring new 'Mechs, and then all of a sudden seeing that there is no way to keep what you've earned so far without paying money, and having to ask yourself what solution is best out of selling a 'Mech, paying $7, or continuing to play with current 'Mechs despite not being able to each Elite/Master status.
To some players, none of these are acceptable.
Yes, LoL is a different game, but take note of the following:
Spoiler
1: Persistent account experience is not tied to the champion in LoL. It is, however, tied to the 'Mech in MWO. The issue with this is that an F2P player in LoL with a level 30 account can apply his runes/masteries/summoner skills to any champion he picks up, even one on a free to play rotation, while in MWO, trial 'Mechs are pathetically inferior to an owned 'Mech, mostly because of two reasons - Pilot Skills and, of course, modifying the stock loadout.
Note: I am fully aware that piloting a Trial 'Mech grants XP, which is a huge upgrade over the "old" system (earn 0 every match, new players loved that), but the xp cannot be spent unless the player has purchased the chassis. Guess what purchasing a chassis requires? A 'Mech Bay! And now we've come full circle!
Imagine if LoL didn't allow you to use runes/masteries/summoner skills on champions in the weekly rotation. Imagine if you had to unlock these on every champion you purchased. Imagine if you can only keep six champions available and need to sell them back (for 1/2 the IP) in order to purchase a new champion. Imagine that you cannot try a new champion without severely limiting your team, as your speed will be lower, attack speed will be lower, maximum mana is lower, range of attack is lower, etc.
AND in order to keep more than six champions, you need to spend $7. Not $1 for one slot, or $2 for 1 slot, but $7, whether you want 1 or 4 slots.
It would be a much less successful game. At least let players use Pilot Skills on trial 'Mechs. It'll change frequently regardless, and they won't feel as bad. It'd be possible to get the necessary XP by just playing more and more, rather than holding the player down who actually wants to play to progress (rather than pay to progress). Reward ambitious players; realize they are an important part of the game.
There are much better things to spend $7 on than four empty spaces in an online video game.
2: If you don't include Hero 'Mechs, this game has 50 variants right now. League of Legends had 55 champions when I started playing. 10 champions were available every week (18% at the time), but MWO only allows 4 variants each week on trials (8%) LoL now has 110 champions, but this is still 11%, which showcases more options and content to F2P players.
Access to more content = more variety = less staleness = enjoying the game more = more likely to continue playing, recommend to a friend, maybe even actually spend money
3: If you want to buy a 'Mech in this game with MC, you effectively need to add 300MC to the price because of the 'Mech bay. That's a $1.75 surcharge that many other F2P games don't have. That's basically charging a player extra for actually trying to support your game (again, people don't like buying empty space or the potential to hold something. They want to buy that something.
Therefore...'Mechs purchased with MC, especially Hero 'Mechs, should come with their own 'Mech bay slot.
The purpose of my spoiler is to demonstrate that other games respect the player's time and money more than this one, causing F2P players without emotional investment in the MechWarrior universe to abandon the game.
Player retention has gotten better, but can significantly improve. Lowering the barrier to play more 'Mechs is one way to assist with this.
I suggest doing at least one of the following:
1: Allow trial 'Mechs to unlock pilot efficiencies. If a new player has unlocked a bunch of efficiencies on a 'Mech, and the rotation changes, and they liked that 'Mech, they may feel more inclined to purchase it.
2: Remove the "3 variant to elite/master" requirement. If a new player picks four different chassis, as many will do because of a desire for variety, they can continue to work towards long-term goals and continue to play instead of giving up before making a convenience purchase.
3: Make 'Mech Bays available to F2P players in some way (achievements and the like will hopefully be a strong, viable option for this) See previous posts for this one. If people only had to spend $1.50-$1.75 to buy one bay, they are more likely to do it See Steam sales figures for proof of this one, on pretty much any game, they make the most money when it's the cheapest. With $7 as the lowest available price point, the barrier of entry is too high for many potential F2P players.
Don't limit the game if you don't pay. Give paying customers the power to enrich their gaming experience instead of being forced to unlock it. Make it fun to spend money. A happy customer spends more. This entire thing is a huge risk. The 'Mech bays, as they stand now, are a cash-locked limiter, not a cash-enabled expander. A player should be able to use money to expand the game, not as a key to locked, limited content. If money gives you more, it's fair. If money removes limitations, it feels much worse.
AGAIN, I paid $120, I support the game, and I have since before day 1. My profile says "Member Since 02 Nov 2011" and the game has come very far. I just want to have this game available to play, and other people to play it with, after a couple years. For that to be the case, F2P players must be considered, new players must be considered, and yes, the improvements to the system are there, but a hurdle like this one is a turnoff.
Players will quit the game before they use their allotted potential because they see that they're limited. And then they tell their friends not to waste their time on MWO and claim that it's P2W or P2Pro or that they'll hit a wall and it's pointless to invest time in it.
The new player experience can be improved, the F2P experience can be improved, and what terrifies me the most is that most of the playerbase doesn't seem to care or want it to be improved. I am concerned for the longevity of the game and the sustainability of this community, mostly because of the ruthless elitism in this thread and throughout the forums. The division between playerbases - paying/founder, nonpaying, pug, premade, all needs to stop, because we're all in this together, and I don't want to be here in 18 months when the only people still playing are Founders because of the high barrier of entry into making a meaningful purchase in this game.
Volume you nailed it again. You should probably address the PGI staff directly. I think talking to some of the posters I've seen on this thread is a complete waste of time. The fact that you have that shiny gold badge and they still resorted to immediately personally attacking you and throwing out insults like "freeloader" and "leech" is evidence enough.
I could hear the incredibly loud whooshing noise as your main point flew right over their heads.
I'm sorry, but I don't see the need to make the mechbays free too. You already get 4 mechbays for free. Mechwarriors had one mech. If you want to have a large collection of mechs, then use a little money. It's not that much money. $7 and you get 4 bays. $15 and you get 10. I don't see the problem.
Any free player can do as good as a paying one, the hero mechs are not better (Flame and Muromets are good, but not better than the other Dragons or Cataphracts), and some times worse (YLW, DK, PB) that free versions of the mechs, so there's no pay to win at all.
Just look at RaceRoom Racing Experience, just released. They give you 2 tracks and 5 cars for free. For the rest of the content, you have to pay 4€-6€ for each car or track.
Man, this whole thing got misinterpreted and misconstrued pretty fast. There have been 200 posts since my last reply, and many of them are personal attacks.
People misunderstand, and while I'd like to multiquote everyone who says I'm complaining or that I need to get a job or spend the $7, it would be a post the length of the Golden Gate Bridge.
I'm thinking that people missed what I said on page 8: It's not about me. I paid $120. I have my slots. It's about MechWarrior. It's about the longevity of the game. The devs raised over $5,000,000 with the Founder's program alone. Many people have purchased separate MC packages. The game is very successful with its current audience. But that audience should expand, and effort should be put in to do that.
As I said in mypreviousposts in this thread (yes, there are only three, including the OP), the point I'm trying to get across is that the perception of an F2P wall will turn people off from even trying the game. The perception of P2W will turn people off from even trying the game. Even if it does not exist, if potential customers believe it does, this is an issue.
As an aside, I find the existence of P2W debatable, considering the Flame, and Ilya Muromets are MC-only, and Flame has a truly wonderful hardpoint layout, and Muromets, while not overpowered in hardpoint layout, has different options that no other Cataphract chassis brings to the table. To all the people talking about WoT: No, it is nowhere near as bad as the Type 59 (which was removed from World of Tanks last January, but not before the damage was done).
The problem is not that 'Mech bays are $1.75 - it's that the choice to pay or sell is forced upon the player after a certain amount of time played. When they are acquirable in another fashion, even a ridiculous fashion, the player can work towards it without hitting a wall. And then, if they tire of working towards it, then they take the choice in their mind and make the decision they want to make.
The difference here is mostly mental, but it's very important. You want to empower players, and let them feel that they have the choice in the matter. This is critical to player retention. Most people don't look at that because we're all BT/MW diehards that will stay with the game regardless of if it's well-designed or not, but other demographics, such as people who are being introduced to MechWarrior through this game, or people who haven't heard of MW.
Grinding for a while, getting a bit tired of it, and deciding to drop a couple bucks on a 'Mech bay (which is really $7, though they should let you pay $1.75 each) is better than playing, playing, playing, acquiring new 'Mechs, and then all of a sudden seeing that there is no way to keep what you've earned so far without paying money, and having to ask yourself what solution is best out of selling a 'Mech, paying $7, or continuing to play with current 'Mechs despite not being able to each Elite/Master status.
To some players, none of these are acceptable.
Yes, LoL is a different game, but take note of the following:
Spoiler
1: Persistent account experience is not tied to the champion in LoL. It is, however, tied to the 'Mech in MWO. The issue with this is that an F2P player in LoL with a level 30 account can apply his runes/masteries/summoner skills to any champion he picks up, even one on a free to play rotation, while in MWO, trial 'Mechs are pathetically inferior to an owned 'Mech, mostly because of two reasons - Pilot Skills and, of course, modifying the stock loadout.
Note: I am fully aware that piloting a Trial 'Mech grants XP, which is a huge upgrade over the "old" system (earn 0 every match, new players loved that), but the xp cannot be spent unless the player has purchased the chassis. Guess what purchasing a chassis requires? A 'Mech Bay! And now we've come full circle!
Imagine if LoL didn't allow you to use runes/masteries/summoner skills on champions in the weekly rotation. Imagine if you had to unlock these on every champion you purchased. Imagine if you can only keep six champions available and need to sell them back (for 1/2 the IP) in order to purchase a new champion. Imagine that you cannot try a new champion without severely limiting your team, as your speed will be lower, attack speed will be lower, maximum mana is lower, range of attack is lower, etc.
AND in order to keep more than six champions, you need to spend $7. Not $1 for one slot, or $2 for 1 slot, but $7, whether you want 1 or 4 slots.
It would be a much less successful game. At least let players use Pilot Skills on trial 'Mechs. It'll change frequently regardless, and they won't feel as bad. It'd be possible to get the necessary XP by just playing more and more, rather than holding the player down who actually wants to play to progress (rather than pay to progress). Reward ambitious players; realize they are an important part of the game.
There are much better things to spend $7 on than four empty spaces in an online video game.
2: If you don't include Hero 'Mechs, this game has 50 variants right now. League of Legends had 55 champions when I started playing. 10 champions were available every week (18% at the time), but MWO only allows 4 variants each week on trials (8%) LoL now has 110 champions, but this is still 11%, which showcases more options and content to F2P players.
Access to more content = more variety = less staleness = enjoying the game more = more likely to continue playing, recommend to a friend, maybe even actually spend money
3: If you want to buy a 'Mech in this game with MC, you effectively need to add 300MC to the price because of the 'Mech bay. That's a $1.75 surcharge that many other F2P games don't have. That's basically charging a player extra for actually trying to support your game (again, people don't like buying empty space or the potential to hold something. They want to buy that something.
Therefore...'Mechs purchased with MC, especially Hero 'Mechs, should come with their own 'Mech bay slot.
The purpose of my spoiler is to demonstrate that other games respect the player's time and money more than this one, causing F2P players without emotional investment in the MechWarrior universe to abandon the game.
Player retention has gotten better, but can significantly improve. Lowering the barrier to play more 'Mechs is one way to assist with this.
I suggest doing at least one of the following:
1: Allow trial 'Mechs to unlock pilot efficiencies. If a new player has unlocked a bunch of efficiencies on a 'Mech, and the rotation changes, and they liked that 'Mech, they may feel more inclined to purchase it.
2: Remove the "3 variant to elite/master" requirement. If a new player picks four different chassis, as many will do because of a desire for variety, they can continue to work towards long-term goals and continue to play instead of giving up before making a convenience purchase.
3: Make 'Mech Bays available to F2P players in some way (achievements and the like will hopefully be a strong, viable option for this) See previous posts for this one. If people only had to spend $1.50-$1.75 to buy one bay, they are more likely to do it See Steam sales figures for proof of this one, on pretty much any game, they make the most money when it's the cheapest. With $7 as the lowest available price point, the barrier of entry is too high for many potential F2P players.
Don't limit the game if you don't pay. Give paying customers the power to enrich their gaming experience instead of being forced to unlock it. Make it fun to spend money. A happy customer spends more. This entire thing is a huge risk. The 'Mech bays, as they stand now, are a cash-locked limiter, not a cash-enabled expander. A player should be able to use money to expand the game, not as a key to locked, limited content. If money gives you more, it's fair. If money removes limitations, it feels much worse.
AGAIN, I paid $120, I support the game, and I have since before day 1. My profile says "Member Since 02 Nov 2011" and the game has come very far. I just want to have this game available to play, and other people to play it with, after a couple years. For that to be the case, F2P players must be considered, new players must be considered, and yes, the improvements to the system are there, but a hurdle like this one is a turnoff.
Players will quit the game before they use their allotted potential because they see that they're limited. And then they tell their friends not to waste their time on MWO and claim that it's P2W or P2Pro or that they'll hit a wall and it's pointless to invest time in it.
The new player experience can be improved, the F2P experience can be improved, and what terrifies me the most is that most of the playerbase doesn't seem to care or want it to be improved. I am concerned for the longevity of the game and the sustainability of this community, mostly because of the ruthless elitism in this thread and throughout the forums. The division between playerbases - paying/founder, nonpaying, pug, premade, all needs to stop, because we're all in this together, and I don't want to be here in 18 months when the only people still playing are Founders because of the high barrier of entry into making a meaningful purchase in this game.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If a player manages to completely fill out their four mechbays with mechs they enjoy, three of which mastered, and one with all the basics, they have played for a significant amount of time. Long enough to know whether they want to drop 7 bucks on it or not. Comparisons to LoL are pointless, its a different game type, with different progression. Even WoT comparisons have issues (I can make a new account, play my cadet bonus out, and buy an Atlas in a day, how long does it take to get a max tier tank?), but are the most appropriate.
The mechbay issue would hold more weight if the pilot trees were really required. They help a good pilot be better, they're not gonna make or break a mech, though. As well, they're completely open to everybody. You can have 4 totally mastered mechs of different chassis, without laying a dime.
The complaint that this requires selling and rebuying mechs is irrelevant. That's what F2P games do. "Here, play this for free, without any monetary commitment. Some parts of it will be easier if you give some money, but its not required." Yeah, you can have a free account with a mastered 3L, 4SP, K2, and DDC, without spending a dime. It would take you far longer than if you had dropped seven dollars and bought mechbays on account of having to sell and rebuy variants. You're operating under the assumption that the majority of people that have no care about Mechwarrior will walk away from the game.
The purpose of my spoiler is to demonstrate that other games respect the player's time and money more than this one, causing F2P players without emotional investment in the MechWarrior universe toabandon the game.
There's your statement. Let me ask you something. If a game is so bad that people that haven't had an attachment to the universe walk away, would any amount of free mechbays fix that? No. A fun game will keep people playing. 4 mechbays is enough to allow the game to be fun. I've already said, the time invested to totally kit out four mechs is long enough for the player in question to decide if they want to stay and invest money, stay and keep playing for free, or wipe their hands of the whole thing.
I'll grant there will be a few who walk away because they think four mechbays is not enough. But, I'm willing to argue far more will stay to play a fun game, and the money PGI makes from people spending MC on mechbays will allow them to keep making said fun game.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, but I like the idea of hero mech purchases coming with a mechbay. Doubly so since Founders Mechs get their own bays.
At the moment the Mech Bays are one of the most resonably priced things in the game and a very good idea from PGIs point of view. Even without founders I would have bought some.
I've already said, the time invested to totally kit out four mechs is long enough for the player in question to decide if they want to stay and invest money, stay and keep playing for free, or wipe their hands of the whole thing.
You forgot the forth option: Come crying to the forums that they can't get mechbays for free on top of everything else.
Quote
Don't limit the game if you don't pay. Give paying customers the power to enrich their gaming experience instead of being forced to unlock it. Make it fun to spend money. A happy customer spends more. This entire thing is a huge risk. The 'Mech bays, as they stand now, are a cash-locked limiter, not a cash-enabled expander. A player should be able to use money to expand the game, not as a key to locked, limited content. If money gives you more, it's fair. If money removes limitations, it feels much worse.
It's only a limitation in your own head. Four mechbays is plenty to play and experiment with for new players. It sounds more like you want to cater to the idiots that think every little thing in this game is a massive grind. The sort of people who look at the elite skills and instead of thinking of them as a neat thing to play towards while kicking *** they view them as some arduous task that must be overcome. If that's not the case then what? For all you're bitching you haven't actually brought up a valid point at all except your own incorrect belief that only four mech bays is going to drive people away. A belief that has no bearing in reality since this wasn't even a complaint anyone has talked about until you got on your soapbox and started pitching a fit.
If there is no reason to spend MC at all beyond the hero mechs which have so far been very optional (and not worth buying in a couple of instances) then how exactly do you propose that PGI make money? That the good natured players are just going to throw it at them for ***** and giggles? Yeah, that's not how people work. The mech bays are at a great price point and are pretty much optional unless you have OCD and just have to play Pokemech.
Also as an aside:
Quote
As an aside, I find the existence of P2W debatable, considering the Flame, and Ilya Muromets are MC-only, and Flame has a truly wonderful hardpoint layout, and Muromets, while not overpowered in hardpoint layout, has different options that no other Cataphract chassis brings to the table.
Neither of the hero dragons do anything particularly special that the other Dragons can't already do. The only notable difference is that you can stuff an AC/20 into the Flame but...bleh, that's kind of a waste. The hardpoints make them a bit easier to use, but it's not like they'll be running fits the other Dragons can't pull off. As far as the Ilya goes, you make it sound like it has some crazy loadout that no other CTF has when it really doesn't. It's a little different from the 4X or 3D but not enough to be severely notable. Anyone claiming that the hero mechs are pay 2 win is just ******* delusional. Then again, you are writing up a giant thesis trying to justify free mech bays so yeah, you are kinda ******* delusional.
0
Sug, on 15 February 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:
