425 replies to this topic

[Ivanzypher]

Just pony up and buy some slots you stingy git.

[The Warspite]

Spend some cash on the game if you like it. The game won't be here for long if nobody paid PGI's bills...

[Demoned]

i believe it was said at some point, that when achievements are implemented, that free slots can be obtained without MC funding.
but i think it might only be one mech bay slot,i can't remember the post area,
but it was in a Ask The Devs topic.
one that got answered also.

[Sug]

Vechs, on 15 February 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Free players are:

- potential future paying players (this point seems lost on many of you)
- potential social marketers (anytime a free player mentions anything about MWO to anyone, it's advertising for PGI)

You guys are really overestimating the money brought in by "potential customer and multiplayer content for my paying customers".


http://en.wikipedia....areto_principle

[FrostPaw]

if you need more mech bay slots, what that is telling you is that you are enjoying the game, which means maybe you could spend some money and enjoy it even more.

[Pihb]

Vechs, on 15 February 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Sometimes I wonder if the very prevalent hostility towards free players is a self-esteem issue for these paying players. Does it make you guys feel better to point at the free player and sneer and laugh and think how much more awesome you are because you spent some money on a videogame?

Heh.

Free players are:
- game content
- potential future paying players (this point seems lost on many of you)
- providers of ancillary benefits (maintaining wikis)
- potential social marketers (anytime a free player mentions anything about MWO to anyone, it's advertising for PGI)

As someone who has spent 160 USD on this game so far, I want PGI to cater to free players. I want PGI to go out there and get as many players as they possible can, free or paid, into this game. As many as they can build servers for. That's how you grow a game.

Try this.

Go through all your arguments and replace the phrase "free player" with the phrase "potential customer and multiplayer content for my paying customers".

It will make for awkward sentences, but you might start looking at things a little different.

I have no ill will for any free player of this game. I know life is tough sometimes and video games should not be a priority in a persons budget. I save my hate for people who come onto the forums and try to demonize people who contribute to this game. I have spent money on this game because I enjoy playing it and giving someone money is a great way of showing a buisness you appreciate their efforts. I want the devs to have a job. I want them to have the best equipment. I want them to be able to focus on making this game better. The more money you give them, the faster this game gets maps, mechs, game modes, community warfare and so on. If you choose, you could play this game for totally free and thats a gift. There are very few truths in this world, one of them being You get what you pay for.

[FupDup]

Sug, on 15 February 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....areto_principle

Edited by FupDup, 15 February 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[Sug]

No matter how hard I google I can't find an explanation for that.

[FupDup]

Sug, on 15 February 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

No matter how hard I google I can't find an explanation for that.

I read the Pareto Principle page and it stated that 80% of the profits come from 20% of the customers. In other words, it's about finding those few that spend the most and pampering them. "Whales" is a slang term used to describe people who put a ton of money into an F2P title, so my first reaction was that the Pareto Principle is geared towards preserving those big spenders--hence the "save the whales" picture.

Edited by FupDup, 15 February 2013 - 06:39 PM.

[Vahnn]

Rotaugen, on 14 February 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

"it is a hefty c-bill loss if you decide you want to pick up that chassis again - one that is unfair to a player without a founder's bonus and premium account."
Unfair? How? We PAID. You will not get the full game experience of owning tons of mechs without paying. You get to play and can max out one chassis (or even two) but that's it. If someone hasn't decided to buy anything at all by that point, they aren't going to anyway. BTW, by YOU, I mean any player out there playing for free, not you specifically, as you were a Founder.)

I agree. I originally intended to not spend any money. After playing about 400 games and filling my "Mechbay, I decided that I liked this game enough and will be sticking around, so I plopped down some MC for more bays.

If you insist on enjoying the game for free, accept that you must do so on a limited basis. They are providing the game for you on a limited basis (that is, they give you the game, you pay nothing), so it's fair. If you want more, pay. It's how F2P games ought to be. There must be SOME incentive for players to drop money, or F2P games would never make it.

[GamerGrandma]

Jabilo, on 14 February 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

If you are playing this game for hours and hours and taking fun and enjoyment from it day after day, do you not think that perhaps you should contribute a little something to it?

Mechbays cost next to nothing. If that is all you need to spend real money on then it is a bargain.

Man up and put a few dollars down.

Cheapskate.

While it's perfectly reasonable to assert a person who has played the game for a certain duration is obligated to pay money, at the same time, however, this means the game can no longer be considered free to play, as there is a compulsory 'tax' levied onto players once a certain timeframe is reached or what-not.

[Sug]

FupDup, on 15 February 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

I read the Pareto Principle page and it stated that 80% of the profits come from 20% of the customers. In other words, it's about finding those few that spend the most and pampering them. "Whales" is a slang term used to describe people who put a ton of money into an F2P title, so my first reaction was that the Pareto Principle is geared towards preserving those big spenders--hence the "save the whales" picture.

Ty for the explanation.

[Kousagi]

GamerGrandma, on 15 February 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

While it's perfectly reasonable to assert a person who has played the game for a certain duration is obligated to pay money, at the same time, however, this means the game can no longer be considered free to play, as there is a compulsory 'tax' levied onto players once a certain timeframe is reached or what-not.

Thing is, all F2P games have something in them where you have to pay money or you suffer from the lack of options... Well at least the ones that don't go to a Pay2Win model.

[Tarman]

GamerGrandma, on 15 February 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

While it's perfectly reasonable to assert a person who has played the game for a certain duration is obligated to pay money, at the same time, however, this means the game can no longer be considered free to play, as there is a compulsory 'tax' levied onto players once a certain timeframe is reached or what-not.

>______________>

You're still not obligated to pay for anything except the convenience of a larger bay. You want more space, you buy more space. It's convenient, and good for Pokemech collecting, but it has no impact on individual matches. Pay for more handy/fun/useless stuff for your game, or play it for free and live without the conveniences and toys. That's the system. The only obligation is to decide whether you think your time is worth more or less than your cash.

The person you quoted was saying that if you don't have hamburger money to put into a game that you're playing enough to be your favourite, then that is inherently cheap behaviour. And it is, barring being actually poor, in which case the Video Game Budget should be zero in the first place. Doesn't stop people from playing the game though, even becoming ace pilots in the top tier of play. Players' individual cheapness only keeps them in pocket change, not off the battlefield. There's no "tax" here to keep playing the core game, you pay for extra goodies or you don't. Either way you're still playing on the same fields with the same kit.

[Alois Hammer]

GamerGrandma, on 15 February 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

While it's perfectly reasonable to assert a person who has played the game for a certain duration is obligated to pay money, at the same time, however, this means the game can no longer be considered free to play, as there is a compulsory 'tax' levied onto players once a certain timeframe is reached or what-not.

Which is a strawman until one is actually required to pay, which they aren't. What part of this concept is so difficult?

[Vechs]

Personally, I'd say just four mechbays for free would be perfectly fine... if you could unlock Master on a single mech without needing to purchase other variants. It's the requirement to have multiple mechs to "level up" just one of them that kinda irks me.

[The Crow2k]

TheStrider, on 14 February 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

-SNIP-

On the same thread, hero mechs should come with a bay...

Agreed.

[ArmandTulsen]

If MWO goes retail, I'll buy it. Until then, I'm taking full advantage of the F2P model. I'm a patient man.

[Bleary]

Vechs, on 15 February 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Personally, I'd say just four mechbays for free would be perfectly fine... if you could unlock Master on a single mech without needing to purchase other variants. It's the requirement to have multiple mechs to "level up" just one of them that kinda irks me.

4 bays is enough to master 2 'Mechs. You need to play for quite a long time to master 2 'Mechs; longer than I play most retail games. I think it's a pretty reasonable amount of free content.

[Volume]

Man, this whole thing got misinterpreted and misconstrued pretty fast. There have been 200 posts since my last reply, and many of them are personal attacks.

People misunderstand, and while I'd like to multiquote everyone who says I'm complaining or that I need to get a job or spend the $7, it would be a post the length of the Golden Gate Bridge.

I'm thinking that people missed what I said on page 8: It's not about me. I paid $120. I have my slots. It's about MechWarrior. It's about the longevity of the game. The devs raised over $5,000,000 with the Founder's program alone. Many people have purchased separate MC packages. The game is very successful with its current audience. But that audience should expand, and effort should be put in to do that.

As I said in my previous posts in this thread (yes, there are only three, including the OP), the point I'm trying to get across is that the perception of an F2P wall will turn people off from even trying the game. The perception of P2W will turn people off from even trying the game. Even if it does not exist, if potential customers believe it does, this is an issue.


As an aside, I find the existence of P2W debatable, considering the Flame, and Ilya Muromets are MC-only, and Flame has a truly wonderful hardpoint layout, and Muromets, while not overpowered in hardpoint layout, has different options that no other Cataphract chassis brings to the table. To all the people talking about WoT: No, it is nowhere near as bad as the Type 59 (which was removed from World of Tanks last January, but not before the damage was done).


The problem is not that 'Mech bays are $1.75 - it's that the choice to pay or sell is forced upon the player after a certain amount of time played. When they are acquirable in another fashion, even a ridiculous fashion, the player can work towards it without hitting a wall. And then, if they tire of working towards it, then they take the choice in their mind and make the decision they want to make.

The difference here is mostly mental, but it's very important. You want to empower players, and let them feel that they have the choice in the matter. This is critical to player retention. Most people don't look at that because we're all BT/MW diehards that will stay with the game regardless of if it's well-designed or not, but other demographics, such as people who are being introduced to MechWarrior through this game, or people who haven't heard of MW.

Grinding for a while, getting a bit tired of it, and deciding to drop a couple bucks on a 'Mech bay (which is really $7, though they should let you pay $1.75 each) is better than playing, playing, playing, acquiring new 'Mechs, and then all of a sudden seeing that there is no way to keep what you've earned so far without paying money, and having to ask yourself what solution is best out of selling a 'Mech, paying $7, or continuing to play with current 'Mechs despite not being able to each Elite/Master status.

To some players, none of these are acceptable.

Yes, LoL is a different game, but take note of the following:

Spoiler

1: Persistent account experience is not tied to the champion in LoL. It is, however, tied to the 'Mech in MWO. The issue with this is that an F2P player in LoL with a level 30 account can apply his runes/masteries/summoner skills to any champion he picks up, even one on a free to play rotation, while in MWO, trial 'Mechs are pathetically inferior to an owned 'Mech, mostly because of two reasons - Pilot Skills and, of course, modifying the stock loadout.

Note: I am fully aware that piloting a Trial 'Mech grants XP, which is a huge upgrade over the "old" system (earn 0 every match, new players loved that), but the xp cannot be spent unless the player has purchased the chassis. Guess what purchasing a chassis requires? A 'Mech Bay! And now we've come full circle!

Imagine if LoL didn't allow you to use runes/masteries/summoner skills on champions in the weekly rotation. Imagine if you had to unlock these on every champion you purchased. Imagine if you can only keep six champions available and need to sell them back (for 1/2 the IP) in order to purchase a new champion. Imagine that you cannot try a new champion without severely limiting your team, as your speed will be lower, attack speed will be lower, maximum mana is lower, range of attack is lower, etc.

AND in order to keep more than six champions, you need to spend $7. Not $1 for one slot, or $2 for 1 slot, but $7, whether you want 1 or 4 slots.
It would be a much less successful game. At least let players use Pilot Skills on trial 'Mechs. It'll change frequently regardless, and they won't feel as bad. It'd be possible to get the necessary XP by just playing more and more, rather than holding the player down who actually wants to play to progress (rather than pay to progress). Reward ambitious players; realize they are an important part of the game.

There are much better things to spend $7 on than four empty spaces in an online video game.

2: If you don't include Hero 'Mechs, this game has 50 variants right now. League of Legends had 55 champions when I started playing. 10 champions were available every week (18% at the time), but MWO only allows 4 variants each week on trials (8%) LoL now has 110 champions, but this is still 11%, which showcases more options and content to F2P players.

Access to more content = more variety = less staleness = enjoying the game more = more likely to continue playing, recommend to a friend, maybe even actually spend money

3: If you want to buy a 'Mech in this game with MC, you effectively need to add 300MC to the price because of the 'Mech bay. That's a $1.75 surcharge that many other F2P games don't have. That's basically charging a player extra for actually trying to support your game (again, people don't like buying empty space or the potential to hold something. They want to buy that something.

Therefore...'Mechs purchased with MC, especially Hero 'Mechs, should come with their own 'Mech bay slot.

The purpose of my spoiler is to demonstrate that other games respect the player's time and money more than this one, causing F2P players without emotional investment in the MechWarrior universe to abandon the game.

Player retention has gotten better, but can significantly improve. Lowering the barrier to play more 'Mechs is one way to assist with this.

I suggest doing at least one of the following:

1: Allow trial 'Mechs to unlock pilot efficiencies. If a new player has unlocked a bunch of efficiencies on a 'Mech, and the rotation changes, and they liked that 'Mech, they may feel more inclined to purchase it.
2: Remove the "3 variant to elite/master" requirement. If a new player picks four different chassis, as many will do because of a desire for variety, they can continue to work towards long-term goals and continue to play instead of giving up before making a convenience purchase.
3: Make 'Mech Bays available to F2P players in some way (achievements and the like will hopefully be a strong, viable option for this) See previous posts for this one. If people only had to spend $1.50-$1.75 to buy one bay, they are more likely to do it See Steam sales figures for proof of this one, on pretty much any game, they make the most money when it's the cheapest. With $7 as the lowest available price point, the barrier of entry is too high for many potential F2P players.

Don't limit the game if you don't pay. Give paying customers the power to enrich their gaming experience instead of being forced to unlock it. Make it fun to spend money. A happy customer spends more. This entire thing is a huge risk. The 'Mech bays, as they stand now, are a cash-locked limiter, not a cash-enabled expander. A player should be able to use money to expand the game, not as a key to locked, limited content. If money gives you more, it's fair. If money removes limitations, it feels much worse.

AGAIN, I paid $120, I support the game, and I have since before day 1. My profile says "Member Since 02 Nov 2011" and the game has come very far. I just want to have this game available to play, and other people to play it with, after a couple years. For that to be the case, F2P players must be considered, new players must be considered, and yes, the improvements to the system are there, but a hurdle like this one is a turnoff.

Players will quit the game before they use their allotted potential because they see that they're limited. And then they tell their friends not to waste their time on MWO and claim that it's P2W or P2Pro or that they'll hit a wall and it's pointless to invest time in it.

The new player experience can be improved, the F2P experience can be improved, and what terrifies me the most is that most of the playerbase doesn't seem to care or want it to be improved. I am concerned for the longevity of the game and the sustainability of this community, mostly because of the ruthless elitism in this thread and throughout the forums. The division between playerbases - paying/founder, nonpaying, pug, premade, all needs to stop, because we're all in this together, and I don't want to be here in 18 months when the only people still playing are Founders because of the high barrier of entry into making a meaningful purchase in this game.


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