57 replies to this topic

[focuspark]

Radical eliminator, on 15 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Disagreeing with facts and packaging it in insulting statements is in fact trolling, but that aside:

When you say stalkers are never fast and then tell me a story about you beating one in a CDA-M3...what does that tell?

Speed is relative! To anything assault and most things that are heavy, a Stalker is really fast. There no way around that and comparing it with a medium to say it is slow is just pointless. You have to take into account that to control range and hit the stalker in LOS, you will need to face it and thus walk backwards, reducing your top speed a lot, and have room to do so!

As for your comment on what you think is overpowered about them. Maybe, but I can't oversee exactly how much of a difference a rounds per ton change would really make an impact. Maybe a little less boating, but given the damage they do now, even 1 less SRM6 is hardly gona change things much.

Cicada (me) vs Catapult... not Stalker. AND out ranging defeated the CPLT in River City's lower city. You know, the place where you're claiming the SRM is king?

Right SRM6 get 100/6 = 16 (+4) shots per ton of ammo. I suggest reducing it to 60 rounds per ton or 60 / 6 = 10 shots. This way SRM6x6 boats would only get one full volley per ton of ammo, drastically limiting their usefulness but still retaining their flavor and the necessary fear + tactics they bring to the battlefield.

gamingogre, on 15 February 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

SRMs are working just fine. The range and spread compensate nicely for the DPS.

^^ this

[StalaggtIKE]

SRM is like a shotgun; it is only effective up to a short range. So you keep your distance. Use long range weapons like LRM. Ok, more than likely you'll run into ECM, so you also need TAG.

[PropagandaWar]

Did you play closed beta when SRMS were so tight that they hit the same location for the most part? I fought an atlas yesterday 2 srm 6s and 4 med lasers. This Atlas had his ECM LRM Loadout with 2 large lasers. I closed in and beat him down. Yeah I used my non-Artimes SRMS and at a distance of 75-100 I was hitting him pretty good. Thing was I was low on ammo and finished him off with my lasers. Guy couldnt hit the broad side of a barn (Something my team says I cant do lol). But he could have had me at range. Also a phract I was tearing up the other day was about to go down. We were going back and forth brutalizing each other. His streak commando buddy came in at the last minute and nuked me. Well played by the way. Thing is with SRMs its easy to over shoot a mech and takes a bit of practice especially going 92 kph. So they are not op.

Getting hit by 6 ppc will shread my torso a hell cat (SRM 6r to some) will obliterate me if Im not smart. 2x ac20 no torso having cat will nueter you dual guass. 50 LRMs in the sky if your silly enough to stay in the open will kill you. Out of the above mentioned killing combos only one will nuke you at close range. Sorry SRMS spread way to much and are only super scary on one mech. I think after the new mods and PPC anti ecm builds come in Streak cats will be the OP mech again as it originally was.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 15 February 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[IceSerpent]

sycocys, on 15 February 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

To help you out against the stalker boat build here's a pro tip - Shoot it's legs. If they want it to go faster they need to sacrifice armor.

This is a bad pro tip - brawler STK with 300 standard engine doesn't sacrifice any armor to speak of. All Stalkers feature underarmored side torsos though, and are easy to disarm.

Quote

Don't stand in front of it, it's got an atrocious torso twist and a massive blindspot where you can shred it from if you get stuck up close - the blind spot is so bad any decent atlas pilot can stay in it like he was a light mech on an atlas.

This is a much better pro-tip, but you have to remember that 3F has 85 degree torso twist, so be careful around that one.

Quote

Against the cats - shoot their ears off every-time you see the variant with ears on the field. Done deal, this mech is useless without them.

And this is the best pro-tip of all three.

[Roland]

Radical eliminator, on 15 February 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

Just like LRMs have a minimum range, SRMs logically need the same if not more so, as their warheads are even more powerful!

At the moment we have game destroying stalkers and catapults hug a target at 1 meter and alpha, not taking any damage themselves at all! By not having a minimum range the weapons are grossly overpowered as it is easy to get this close to a target in the middle of a fight and do so intact.

The game has evolved to the point of "hug the enemy till they explode"!

1) Putting a minimum range on short range weapons is silly.
2) If you are actually touching an enemy, and fire SRMs into their face, you actually DO damage yourself with splash damage. (I know this because I have actually killed myself doing this)

[Tesunie]

Focus Spark wasn't all that rude to you.

When boated, SRMs can be deadly, but they also have a large weakness as well. Catch them at range and they can't hurt you. If you are faster than them, you can easily escape them. If you get ambushed, you probably won't survive, as the SRM mech design is all about ambushing at close range. You can't blame people for using a mech for what they designed it for. Otherwise you might want to start complaining that a Cicada with 6 med lasers are too powerful because they can slip behind you and melt you from behind.

If you see a cat (C1 I think) running at you, either run away, if you know you can't, aim for the ears. Even removing one ear halves their weapon load out. I tend to do this with Stalkers as well, but I aim for the side torso on them.

Being someone who had an SRM stalker before, let me say, they are slow. It's very hard to get into range with them, but when you can they do hurt. I actually found that I was getting unreliable results and most times was dying before doing any real damage. It's a risk vs reward mech. Do you risk everything in having to get closer up, or not focus so much on just close range and have some long range as well?

To be fair, I see more LRM Stalkers than I do SRM ones. Cats I'm seeing a fairly half and half.

If you really think this might be a problem now, wait till the Trebuchet comes in. Faster than the cat, with jump, and missile hard points. But less armor will probably make them fall out of favor, as well as possibly less torso twist...

Honestly, it sounds like you just need to play more and learn so counter tactics and locate and stay away from ambush allies. (I seem to have a 6th sense about when an ambush is about to happen. I tend to warn the team, get ignored, try stop it, and die in the attempt.)

[Radical eliminator]

sycocys, on 15 February 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

You mean you can't control you distance by running forward and turning your torso sideways effectively creating an extremely adjustable strafing range?

Are you intentionally limiting your maneuvers or have you not played much yet?

1. The maps generally do not have that room to do what you say/ I explained already that 300m is a lot for where SRM stalkers will operate! Never mind the open space required!

2. Not all mechs have that twist range you are talking about, none of the stalkers can for example. The atlas comes close, but not close enough. Even if it could, if it would do that it will have to be so much in the open it will get hit form anything else in the field.

As to your insult about not having played much as i don't do what you do...your not show any sign of experience to me, so why do you dare to pile it up that big?

It could be what we have here is a classic class war, People in some popular mechs assuming that all mechs work and feel like that and therefore everyone should be able to play like they do. Well, I got news....an atlas is not an over sized raven! Nor is a stalker a bigger catapult. Speed varies, exposed profile varies, torso twist range varies, weapon convergence... everything.

Just humor me and look at these statistics:

http://mwowiki.org/w...omparison_Table

Torso twist in degrees ranking:

140: Catapult
120: Jenner / Raven / Hunchback / Cicada / Centurion CN9-YLW
110: Spider
100: Awesome

So far these mechs could do a 90 degree twist and fire while moving with some aim adjusting room, lets take a look at the rest shall we?

90: Denturion / Dragon / Cataphract
85: Stalker STK-3F
80: Atlas
60: Stalker

This list show nicely you how unreal that strafing piloting tactic becomes in other mech classes. Notice the insane difference between the top and bottom. 140 degrees on the top and 60 on the bottom. If you do the same for speeds you will realize quick that all SRM counter suggestions to far are impractical.

[Radical eliminator]

Tesunie, on 15 February 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Focus Spark wasn't all that rude to you.

When boated, SRMs can be deadly, but they also have a large weakness as well. Catch them at range and they can't hurt you. If you are faster than them, you can easily escape them. If you get ambushed, you probably won't survive, as the SRM mech design is all about ambushing at close range. You can't blame people for using a mech for what they designed it for. Otherwise you might want to start complaining that a Cicada with 6 med lasers are too powerful because they can slip behind you and melt you from behind.

If you see a cat (C1 I think) running at you, either run away, if you know you can't, aim for the ears. Even removing one ear halves their weapon load out. I tend to do this with Stalkers as well, but I aim for the side torso on them.

Being someone who had an SRM stalker before, let me say, they are slow. It's very hard to get into range with them, but when you can they do hurt. I actually found that I was getting unreliable results and most times was dying before doing any real damage. It's a risk vs reward mech. Do you risk everything in having to get closer up, or not focus so much on just close range and have some long range as well?

To be fair, I see more LRM Stalkers than I do SRM ones. Cats I'm seeing a fairly half and half.

If you really think this might be a problem now, wait till the Trebuchet comes in. Faster than the cat, with jump, and missile hard points. But less armor will probably make them fall out of favor, as well as possibly less torso twist...

Honestly, it sounds like you just need to play more and learn so counter tactics and locate and stay away from ambush allies. (I seem to have a 6th sense about when an ambush is about to happen. I tend to warn the team, get ignored, try stop it, and die in the attempt.)

It is not that i don't know it is going to happen (most of the time i do), but that there really ain't another option then to engage at some point. If i sit back and do nothing, i will be the last one to die and get swarmed and still loose.

Even keeping range does not matter, and i say again...they are damned fast 60 km/h+. Everything assault is as fast or slower and your only as fast if you turn your back to them and run away in a straight line! They won't come at you from 800m in the open obviously.Try to also see my comments from the perspective of an assault pilot with max to near max speed!

And when engaged with other targets, they can approach you uncontested and unload, sometimes killing one mech every shot. Does't sound like a risk/reward, but i do have to admit that if they wait too long, they have not much of a chance, they need the surprise and the maps give them every chance to get that on their side.

Now if we finally have something like short range radar, it will be another ballgame again!

Edited by Radical eliminator, 15 February 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Tesunie]

Um, I've played in a Cicada, Stalker, Dragon, Hunchback, and a Jenner. I've had a couple of times I got caught by an SRM cat and died. Normally they aren't a problem as my team instinctively focus fires on them. Even on my own, I can normally injure one before I drop. Best fight I had with an SRM cat was in my Hunchback. I kept pounding that cat while dodging by buildings for cover. Almost took off his ear and left his ct with no armor. I was going stock speed, so I knew there was no escape. I died, but that's because I was on his playground and he was the bigger bully.

However, same Hunchback, I've owned an SRM cat by out ranging them. Took off an ear before they could even hurt me, then finished the other ear. Poor cat had to walk around useless for a while till another teammate finished him off.

SRM mechs are very situational. If they scare you that much, stay to the open areas where you can see then approach, like the lake in Forest Colony, most of Caustic Valley, the river in River City... But then beware of snipers and LRMs.

[focuspark]

Tesunie, on 15 February 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

SRM mechs are very situational. If they scare you that much, stay to the open areas where you can see then approach, like the lake in Forest Colony, most of Caustic Valley, the river in River City... But then beware of snipers and LRMs.

Exactly, somebody needs to be around to flush targets out into the open for snipers!

[Tesunie]

Radical eliminator, on 15 February 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Even keeping range does not matter, and i say again...they are damned fast 60 km/h+. Everything assault is as fast or slower and your only as fast if you turn your back to them and run away in a straight line! They won't come at you from 800m in the open obviously.Try to also see my comments from the perspective of an assault pilot with max to near max speed!

I do know what you mean. Really.I use a Stalker and commonly come across situations like that. My Stalker are set up with 4 PPCs and the other one with 6 med lasers and four LRM 5s. I'm slow and once someone is in range, I'm not escaping without a lot of help from my team. Something you might need to do is target priority. Identify target that can hurt you the most and drop them. In my PPC stalker, I find the more open areas of the map that still has some cover and snipe. I'll see most threats like that before they get to me, and aim for an arm or ct. If I have a damage readout on them, I'll aim where they are hurt. If they get close, I try to keep my 90m range and keep the fire on them. Twist if I have to to spread damage. I'll even show them my rear if it has more armor on it and twist back for a shot.

Other Stalker find the same way. I LRM people at range, especially the closer targets. If they get within 300m they now have to face my lasers and LRMs at once. 6 med lasers can melt even and atlas if I keep the damage on one spot. In these cases, I have to hope that I can disable our destroy them before they can me. Most times I get them first because I had already damaged them before.

Am I going to say that any mech can face them well? No. If you find it a common enough problem, might be your mech needs some adjustment. What mech load outs you using? How do you tend to use them? Where so you normally try to fight? What is your idea of your mechs role on the battlefield? Do you work with the team, or lone star yourself? Do you seek team members when in trouble? Do you ask for help with grid location when you are facing a mech your mech not designed to handle? When I was running my stalk Stalker 3H, I would commonly ask for help when someone closed in on me. Same with my PPC stalker. Be amazed what a quick "Help D7" will do for you.

[MaddMaxx]

Radical eliminator, on 15 February 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Now if we finally have something like short range radar, it will be another ballgame again!

There it is. The actual crux of the OP's real issue. He simply doesn't like not knowing where everyone (re: the enemy team) is at all times. How "short" would you like this so called "short range radar" to actually be?

You have heard of the 360 degree module right? With it on-board, simply target ® an enemy Mech (make it an A1 for good measure) and even though it may get behind you, it stays on your radar. (save for ECM interference iirc)

Try it, it may help alleviate some that innate fear you have while on the battlefield...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 15 February 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[focuspark]

360 module combine with the sensor range module is like magic. Really something to work towards.

[blinkin]

looks like most everything has already been said.

@OP
if the "insults" that have been thrown at you here are too much forums are probably not the place for you. i read through most of the posts including the posts that were "insulting". the comments are harsh, but there are no derogitory terms. until you started throwing a hissy fit no one was even attacking you personally.

ok now for my actual portion of the argument:
srm mechs are not immune to damage. they can be shot at range or they can be shot when they are up close. the mouth breathers that insist on face hugging are not manuevering. both catapults and stalkers have massive cockpits right on their nose.

do you know how much it takes to bring down a fully armored cockpit? less than 40 damage (2x AC20). i know i have been one shotted several times while playing my catapult c4.

i own a catapult c4 4xsrm6+artemis and 86kph <-(the fastest catapult you can make). if i manage to come up behind someone without them noticing there are good odds that i will kill or mangle them with one shot.

now lets look at this scenario carefully.

• if i am behind you then the majority of my team is on the other side of you. i get no support.
  
• i get EXACTLY ONE SHOT before most players notice. this is based on my experiences while playing pug matches, which make up the majority of matches i play. after that point the majority of the enemy team will turn and focus on me.
  
• the majority of my stealth approaches fail because i am trying to avoid 8 seperate lines of sight on players that i most likely don't know the positions of.
  
• to get my speed of 86kph and still have space for equipment I MUST MOUNT AN XL ENGINE. armor on the side torso of a catapult tops out at 60 front and rear. 30/30 seems to be the best combination for me. XL engine means that you can destroy any of my 3 torso sections and i will die.
  
• if i lose a leg i am most likely out of the fight. i will still try but short range weapons at 40-50kph is most likely not going to be effective, especially with soft armor (not an assault).
  
• any enemy that is not within a very precise range (50-100m) is likely to take damage but that damage will be spread over several components.
  
• out past 270m my srm do NOTHING not reduced damage, not reduced accuracy, and not distributed damage, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. srm explode as soon as they reach 270m. nothing beyond 270m can be hit by a missile.
  
• i am frigging big. even moving at full speed and dodging through terrain, very few players have issues hitting a heavy mech with huge boxes on it's shoulders.

i have not played any of these fog ridden maze like maps that you seem to be describing. i also have a jenner with an ERPPC. even with the extreme ranges of ERPPC i have run into plenty of cases where enemies were completely out of range (1500m+), but still in view. there are many open areas that work well for sniping. if you don't believe me ask any of the fifty billion "nerf the catapult k2" threads.

[sycocys]

I was asking an honest question about your play time because you think backing away is the only way to deal with srms.

I have piloted/own near all of the mechs aside from the stalker and spider and can assure you that you most definately CAN turn your torso and/or arms and move around srm and close range brawlers, AND there are places to do this on every map. Heck even some of the maps provide really awesome cover for you to totally thwart their effectiveness while staying within their distance range. Furthermore it really doesn't matter which mech you take up against them if you challenge them properly and turn the advantage to yours.

^ Your not being able to figure this stuff out (apparently) is why I question either your play time, or that you are intentionally nerfing yourself to try to prove some sort of point. Sorry if that's too rude for you, but it is simply how you come across with your posts.


-- I also challenge the anyone to fire on a stalkers legs and tell me that it's not by far the most efficient method for dealing with that mech. Most of the time the armor is dropped, full of ammo and lasers don't spread to other parts.

[Radical eliminator]

MaddMaxx, on 15 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

There it is. The actual crux of the OP's real issue. He simply doesn't like not knowing where everyone (re: the enemy team) is at all times. How "short" would you like this so called "short range radar" to actually be?

You have heard of the 360 degree module right? With it on-board, simply target ® an enemy Mech (make it an A1 for good measure) and even though it may get behind you, it stays on your radar. (save for ECM interference iirc)

Try it, it may help alleviate some that innate fear you have while on the battlefield...

I know of the module and for what i need it is of no use as one needs to switch targets all the time in a fight. Can;t just pop over a hill, get a lock and keep it on that and ignore everything else now can we?

[CancR]

CancR, on 15 February 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Srms are a part of the problem why long time MW fans call this game 'Mechassault of duty'. Because of the small maps, every one just running up to each other anyway and m1'ing all people are looking at is how to get the highest damage rating , and SRMs being way over what they should be are the quickest.

It's one of these problems that causes player segregation. When ELO is put in, the players that run up and m1 are going to have their elo drop dramatically but the players that earned a higher ELO and will snipe, use some lrms, and move around the map and not meet in the middle and win the m1 war. the question of segregation comes in if players will ever break that boundry of trying to win the m1 war, or learning mech roles, and playing everything from quake at pro level to UT, Rainbow 6, MW4, Tribes, and tf2, all my experience tells me that it will be a slim margin that will convert.

Devs should be taking steps to make sure every weapon has a acceptable risk/reward ratio. Right now there are allot of things that just simply don't.

Come on. Some one feed the troll.

[Radical eliminator]

Thanks for the more constructive posts later on in this thread, not all of it equally useful to me or matching my own experiences and observations out there. As for my playtime, it varies but I am CET timezone based and only do PUGs as a casual player (would be different if i play every day multiple hours of course).

As for the tone in this thread:

People seem to judge anyone that proposes change as someone incapable of dealing with things described. If i think the current implementation does not make much sense and is overpowered, it does not mean i never kill or win. My observations are just that, seeing how effective they are on most maps, often leading to 8-0 to 8-2 kill-scores when there are several SRM boats. But in a half decent team I will often end near the top and sometimes even get several kills (plenty of matches without however).

My argument about missing radar is two fold.

1. Mechs are hard to make out against the background (on most maps, even at short range) and at long ranges impossible to spot without fuzzy thermal view. On top of this, quite some maps require constant heat view, just to have a slight idea of your enemy position.

2. Lag causing sliding mechs at non-constant speeds and in impossible directions (sometimes sideways) make it extra hard to get a good sense of what is moving where and how fast and act accordingly. Making sense of bad data causes misses and delays appropriate action. Radar would help to compensate that.

In the situation of rushing SRM boats (we did establish these are commonplace i hope)...those extra seconds saved by better Intel make a whole ton of difference if you are unarmed in two salvo's, It would also make unorganized teams way more cohesive in their response!

Edited by Radical eliminator, 15 February 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[blinkin]

Radical eliminator, on 15 February 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

2. Lag causing sliding mechs at non-constant speeds and in impossible directions (sometimes sideways) make it extra hard to get a good sense of what is moving where and how fast and act accordingly. Making sense of bad data causes misses and delays appropriate action. Radar would help to compensate that.

not sure what to say about #1 other than what you describe is drastically different than what i experience.

as far as #2 is concerned. in my srm mech lag is my worst enemy. unless i am facing a stationary target and i am also sitting still, there is a good solid chance that my missiles will go straight into some dirt or off into the sky. with 6 tons of ammo i get a grand total of 25 shots. missing is very bad for me. as it stands currently i have been mostly avoiding playing because some ping issues have popped up. SRM tend to be one of the very first things effected by lag.

[Radical eliminator]

I tend to think that lag is especially bad for any kind of fit with quick heat buildup, like a PPC or laser boat for example.