64 replies to this topic

[lordlazarus]

answer is simples get rid of all weapons and lets use sharp sticks and harsh language

ho noes vocabulary is op

[TheForce]

Deamhan, on 17 February 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Teams consist of 2 ECM Lights, 2 ECM Atlas and the rest consist of...

Duel Gauss Cats or Catas
Duel AC20 of the same
4 or 6 PPC Stalkers
Splat Cat and Splat Stalker

But the mech isn't as important as the weapons. An over abundance of SRM 6, PPC, Gauss and AC20. The lights run streak heavy. Anything "less" and you are selling your team short.

That is what this game has been reduced to. If "adapting" is to be forced into a specific build/team config then this game is fail. Don't even bother with the "human factor" that is 'team work'. Of course the better player / teamwork will do better. That is something that is somewhat out of the Devs hands except for the new match maker. What IS within the control of the Devs is to do their best to balance the weapons and mechs.

This has been standard for every MinmaxWarrior game since MinmaxWarrior 2 back in the 90's.

Looks like a bunch of players want this: http://mwomercs.com/...only-game-mode/

Edited by TheForce, 18 February 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[p00k]

Imperial X, on 17 February 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Its not about what weapon involves more thinking. Its about being able to think enough to be a good player at all ranges. No one cares if your a good player at 270m if you can't do sh*t beyond that range. Any mech that can stay outside your range has just made you a useless team member.

to your first statement, omni13 quite plainly claims that it requires less thinking. but of course you're not omni13

to which end, you're still wrong
one of the most popular ddc builds right now is the 2mlas, ac20, 3srm6 build. you can't do anything beyond 540m with that build. or similarly stalkers that run only mlas & srm6's. the cookie cutter 3l raven. a streakcommando is capped at 270m as well.

bottom line is, trying to be good at all ranges shows a lack of thinking, not exercise of thought. it shows you don't understand pacing in first person shooter/sims. it shows you don't understand tactics. thinking comes in the planning stage, in the mech design stage, where you design a mech to excel in a certain situation and then play to put yourself in that situation. for a splatcat that situation is <270m with lots of cover. for a poptart that situation is >500m with a ridge to drop behind. for lrm's that situation is >180m with a target in the open. large lasers heavy mechs is ~300-700m, to maximize the advantage over brawlers. dakka builds is a target in the open. light mechs it's a target preoccupied and exposing their rear. etc etc

Edited by p00k, 18 February 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[Deamhan]

Oh look, a troll brigade.

[Rovertoo]

Mech hardpoint restrictions really shouldn't happen. I wouldn't be too opposed to moving K2 points to the center torso ( I use a dual AC/2 cat) but messing with sizes will not only create balancing/nerfing problems FOREVER, it would just limit customization, the most fun part of the game! Just balance ECM, SRM6's, and most all else is balanced. I mean, dual AC/20 cats would disappear with the hardpoint move (If they want to do that) so the only problems left are ECM and SRM6's.

Oh, and LBX's should be buffed.

[TheForce]

another thing that will help is private matches. then like minded players can get together and agree on weapon restrictions, rule out certain builds, and play MechWarrior instead of MinmaxWarrior.

[Eddrick]

Astroniomix, on 17 February 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

It would be helpful if you would provide an example of a "good" or "balanced" build. We can already infer that you find splatapults "dumb"

An all round weapon loadout is what some would call, "Jack of all trades, Master of none". It takes someone who is equaly good at all weapons/ranges to make it shine.

Most like to specialize and many like to have a specialized person on thier team. That way, they know what to expect from the person and how to help them.

[SpiralRazor]

Man...this is crap post obviously. I am disappoint.


Wits End is 40% attack speed, 25 Magic resist....and it deal 42 bonus magic damage on hit plus gives you a stacking magic resist bonus. Clearly its counter magic damage heavy teams.. Nothing OP about this item at all.

L2P.

[Woska]

Imperial X, on 17 February 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

You should not have to adapt your weapon setup because people continuously boat weapons. Playing a splat cat is probably the easiest and most dumbed down mech you can play.

It is one thing to tell someone to adapt their playstyle in a match to do better. Its another to tell people to adapt their mech fits because anything but build A or build B is putting your team at a disadvantage. I was in a game with an A-1 who had a mix of weapons. Some LRMs and some SRMs. He got sh*t talked right into a disconnect. Got called useless and a noob. As if anyone playing a splat cat has any right to call anyone a noob.

So instead of someone playing a legit build that can do damage at multiple different ranges, hes expected to run some no brain fit ? That my friends, is fail.

You've missed the point I was making entirely it seems. First a splatcat is not by any means easy, at least not the way you make it sound. SRMs do high damage, but it is not focused. And especially with the Catapult, those weapons are fairly vulnerable sticking out on the arms.

You need to adapt your weapons to YOUR OWN playstyle. If you tend to get in close and brawl, then SRMs and medium lasers are your friends. If you like to snipe, then Gauss and PPCs are your tools. But if you're in a brawler and you end up dealing with a sniper, don't rush him across open terrain, adjust your tactics to suit the situation.

I don't understand this idea that anything is a 'must have build'. I have encountered a huge variety of builds, all with strengths and weaknesses. I've seen energy boats that couldn't fight effectively because they were shutting down all the time. I've seen SRM boats that couldn't hold enough ammo to last through the fight. I've seen gun bunnies that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, or blew themselves up when they overheated.

All builds have strengths and weaknesses.

[Mercules]

p00k, on 17 February 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

your mistake is thinking weapon variety makes a build "legit". it doesn't. might work in tabletop, but when you actually have to aim, and when cover and not dice rolls determine hit vs miss, and when things are moving in real time, a build that tries to be ok at everything is good at nothing.

It works in MWO. Lets not forget that you can build a mech to be okay at one range and good at another. Or you can build a mech that is optimal at one range like the Splattapult. The mech that is good at close but also okay at range can play to the Splattapult's weakness. If it tries to play the Splattapult's game very long it will probably lose, but if it can force the Splattapult to play it's game it wins.

Something like a C4 could carry 4 SRM 6s and a Large Laser. It has reduced it's alpha but has gained a tiny bit of ranged damage, and something that is not reliant on ammo and the ears not being blown off. If you stick with a A1 a single LRM 10 might not do a whole lot but if the light mech runs out of your range he is now in the LRM 10's range and that can still mess up his day.

I've seen some interesting A1s with 2 LRM 10s and 4 SRM 6s. If I stand off from them they can LRM me and if I close with them I get swatted.

The Splattapult is overly optimized. Like a an animal evolved for one environment it can't handle sudden changes. I don't think it is no skill as you have to basically sneak into range. That takes a little bit of talent, but that is still a one trick pony talent.

Stoicblitzer, on 17 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

HAHAHA. I need something I can put machine guns, tags, and narcs on in abundance...what could i do? HELP PLZ!

Raven 4X - 2 Tag, 1 Narc, 2 Machine guns.

Astroniomix, on 18 February 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

The problem with building a mech to work at all ranges is you end up being bad at one range and ok at another.

Only if you consider "Optimal" = "good".

In reality you end up bad to okay at one range and good at another. You can also take advantage of fewer heat sinks. If you are not firing your LRMs when you tend to fire off your Medium Lasers(like most C4s) then you don't need enough Heat Sinks to cover LRMs AND your lasers, just enough for whatever system you happen to be and a bit extra for when there is an overlap and you want to let them have an Alpha.

People look at stock mechs and go, "They can't fire all their weapons without overheating!" This is true, because most stock were built with a variety of ranges and in TT it works for sure. Here, a bit less but that is more the maps and the playstyle than anything. I've put Splattapults in a bad positions before.

The other night I noticed one sneaking up on the team and started blasting it with my 2 LL RVN-4X I am trying to level. He wasn't happy when I legged him. After that I and others just stood back.

Being optimal at short range like that means being worthless at other ranges, not just bad, but literally no worth.

Edited by Mercules, 18 February 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

p00k, on 17 February 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

your mistake is thinking weapon variety makes a build "legit". it doesn't. might work in tabletop, but when you actually have to aim, and when cover and not dice rolls determine hit vs miss, and when things are moving in real time, a build that tries to be ok at everything is good at nothing. the splatcat may be cheesy, but the real "no brain" move is not realizing how to use your build and your terrain in concert

you claim a splatcat is a dumb way to play. honestly how much thinking is required to to play these "legit" builds you speak of?

I was going to make a long winded rebuttal but you put it best yourself. My Atlas uses Ballistics, Energy & Missile weapons to great success. Mix of weapons and ranges.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 February 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[80Bit]

So there is an over abundance of large mechs using large weapons? Yeah sounds like a major problem, they should all be boating Medium Lasers instead.

[p00k]

Mercules, on 18 February 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

It works in MWO. Lets not forget that you can build a mech to be okay at one range and good at another. Or you can build a mech that is optimal at one range like the Splattapult. The mech that is good at close but also okay at range can play to the Splattapult's weakness. If it tries to play the Splattapult's game very long it will probably lose, but if it can force the Splattapult to play it's game it wins.

Something like a C4 could carry 4 SRM 6s and a Large Laser. It has reduced it's alpha but has gained a tiny bit of ranged damage, and something that is not reliant on ammo and the ears not being blown off. If you stick with a A1 a single LRM 10 might not do a whole lot but if the light mech runs out of your range he is now in the LRM 10's range and that can still mess up his day.

I've seen some interesting A1s with 2 LRM 10s and 4 SRM 6s. If I stand off from them they can LRM me and if I close with them I get swatted.

The Splattapult is overly optimized. Like a an animal evolved for one environment it can't handle sudden changes. I don't think it is no skill as you have to basically sneak into range. That takes a little bit of talent, but that is still a one trick pony talent.

except, at long range, it can't hold off true lrm boats, or long range direct fire mechs. and at short range it can't stand against a ddc brawler or pure splatcat.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 February 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

I was going to make a long winded rebuttal but you put it best yourself. My Atlas uses Ballistics, Energy & Missile weapons to great success. Mix of weapons and ranges.

what a coincidence. so do mine. but they all excel at a certain range. my ddc excels at <500m. my d excels at ~300-800. my rs excels at >500. and i play to try and put my atlas in those ranges as much as possible. a splatcat is no different. and to claim that because your weapons have different ranges somehow makes your mech require more "thinking" is, well, stupid

[p00k]

also, old as balls, but quite succinctly embodies the splatcat whining out there

http://www.sirlin.ne...win-part-1.html

sound familiar, guys?

[Joseph Mallan]

pOOk you misundersood my point. I wasn't trying to belittle the StreakCat for what it is good at, just that being a one trick pony is not the best tactical choice. Unless you are working with people who can and will cover those weaknesses. there is only one difference between a one trick pony and a mixed bag Mech. StreakCats, 4P and GaussCats only have to worry about one range bracket. Now depending on how many brackets you have, one does have more to think about than a one trick platform.

p00k, on 18 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

also, old as balls, but quite succinctly embodies the splatcat whining out there http://www.sirlin.ne...win-part-1.html sound familiar, guys?

good to know I haven't been a scrub in years.

[Mercules]

p00k, on 18 February 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

except, at long range, it can't hold off true lrm boats, or long range direct fire mechs. and at short range it can't stand against a ddc brawler or pure splatcat.

Except 8 mechs that can all contribute to combat at all ranges will equal 4 specialized mech at any given range. If they run into 8 specialized close combat mechs they have range advantage on them and can soften them up before they get into weapon range maybe even remove 2-3 before they can close. If they hit 8 specialized long ranged mechs they can take pot shots as they close and then are superior once in close.

The only reason we specialize in online games is because group think makes people believe that 60 damage from one source is better than 20 damage from 3 sources. It can be, it might not be.

I see the same thing in TT and in MMOs. The Holy Trinity can go away if everyone can do a bit of everything and I've proven that with groups in the past.

[p00k]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 February 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

pOOk you misundersood my point. I wasn't trying to belittle the StreakCat for what it is good at, just that being a one trick pony is not the best tactical choice. Unless you are working with people who can and will cover those weaknesses. there is only one difference between a one trick pony and a mixed bag Mech. StreakCats, 4P and GaussCats only have to worry about one range bracket. Now depending on how many brackets you have, one does have more to think about than a one trick platform.

well my point was directed more towards the plethora of complaints about how "mindless" the splatcat is. and i disagree, it can be the best tactical choice in many situations. if you're playing river city for example, there is pretty much always enough cover for you to totally negate the splatcat's weaknesses. you could have a team of 8 of them, and provided individual ability and coordination be comparable to the enemy's, be wildly successful

and yes, a mixed build can have multiple range brackets. but recognizing your target is 800m away and knowing you can click mouse2 is really no more thought than recognizing your target is 400m away and knowing you can't click mouse1. the splatcat still has to recognize his enemy's loadout to best plan his approach, knowing he has to close that much farther to be useful, versus a ranged mech that might only have to plan a path to close him within 600m, or 500m, or whatever

Mercules, on 18 February 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Except 8 mechs that can all contribute to combat at all ranges will equal 4 specialized mech at any given range. If they run into 8 specialized close combat mechs they have range advantage on them and can soften them up before they get into weapon range maybe even remove 2-3 before they can close. If they hit 8 specialized long ranged mechs they can take pot shots as they close and then are superior once in close.

ah, but that's the hook isn't it. that's the difference between tabletop and mwo, the shooter/sim. 8 specialized close combat mechs don't necessarily get softened up much, don't necessarily have a few of their number removed before they can close. and they dont' always need to close. in assault they need only defend, and be willing to settle for a tie if the other team refuses to push in.

plus, all range mechs often have to rely on mixed ammo stores, meaning a less optimized build. things like heat management, crit management, engine choice, also become less optimized. if you want all range capability, better to take a few long range mechs, and a few short range mechs, than a bunch of all-range mechs

Edited by p00k, 18 February 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Your point is spot on.

But there is a thought you missed for those with multiple ranges v one range only builds. Sure we both have "Cool it in range" but sometimes a player with multi range builds has to remember, "Opps to close!" See just a little more thinking for some builds over one trick pony builds.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 February 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[Greyfyl]

Imperial X, on 17 February 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

You should not have to adapt your weapon setup because people continuously boat weapons. Playing a splat cat is probably the easiest and most dumbed down mech you can play.

Been playing a splatcat for the last week or so and my k/d ratio is skyrocketing. I'm an average player, but in the regular pug queue, the thing is ridiculously OP. Stand in the back and let everyone get the brawl going and then just run in and finish one mech after another off. You can frequently one shot lights and mediums, and even if they do survive they usually don't have many weapons left.

With the speed and jj's it's amazing how often you can get in behind the enemy LRM boats or snipers. Sneak up behind them and BOOOOOOMMMM. I find myself actually feeling bad for medium pilots that I come across, I can't tell you how many times in the past few days a hunchie or centurion would come around a corner and I would just one shot them into oblivion before they even had a chance to react,

[Deamhan]

TheForce, on 18 February 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

another thing that will help is private matches. then like minded players can get together and agree on weapon restrictions, rule out certain builds, and play MechWarrior instead of MinmaxWarrior.

I prefer to call it, Cheesewarrior Online.