483 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Void Angel, on 25 February 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

So close games are not fun for you? Uh, sorry you feel that way, but if you dislike competition, perhaps another game would be a better fit for your playing style.

PhoenixFire55, on 25 February 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

You need to have such matches from time to time, but when every single game turns out to be this and you know beforehands that it is gonna be such, then at some point you just stop caring ... so fun!

Void Angel, on 25 February 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

However, arranging your organized team's matches so that the other team can't be organized IS CHEATING. Synch dropping was/is an exploit - using it to force people who dropped with the expectation that they would be matched against random teams to fight a coordinated, organized 8-man team is hardly "putting more effort into the game." Just the opposite, in fact; they're deliberately arranging the game so that winning takes them substantially less effort.

So much hate. You are so full of it that in your ignorance you forgot that sync-dropping has an equal if not better chance to place two groups of four into different teams in the same game. That would be bringing organization to BOTH teams. Besides, nor I, nor anybody else I know who do sync-dropping really cares about what other team has, PUGs, premades. I am not responsible for the level of organization somebody else brings into the battle. Only reason why people do it is because they want to play with 5, 6, 7 friends and PGI won't allow us to do it normally. You never really thought about it because judging by your attitude you don't have any friends to drop with anyway.

Oh and btw, next time your country goes to war or smth, go PUG in the frontline, will ya? Because obviousely your army is a bunch of cheaters and exploiters that use it teamwork that is so OP and requires less skill.

Void Angel, on 25 February 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

But I suppose you have to try something when you haven't got a single valid argument to throw out.

Talking to yourself?

Void Angel, on 25 February 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

So, in answer to your question, yes. Elo is exactly the right direction for this game. It's unfortunate that measures intended to stop cheaters inconvenienced some 8-man players - as I've said elsewhere, it might well be reasonable to ask PGI to implement separate Elos for 8-man play. However, the cheaters needed to be stopped.

And there is the reason for your hate ... poor baby getting stomped by supposedly sync-dropping 8 man premades. Don't cry poor baby, here have a lollipop ... Now please go to your ELO below zero zone and don't bother grown-ups.

[PhoenixFire55]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 25 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

I have a theory that Matchmaking does take into account weight classing, but that is the first thing it discards when it has trouble. At that point it starts to decrease the ELO threshold as it continues filling the roster.

So the first person it has trouble with discards weight balancing and then ELO disparity starts to increase from that point.

That is most likely the case, but there is no point in haveing 'skill-balanced' game if mech types aren't balanced. Take 16 people of same skill, put 8 of them into 4 3L Ravens and 4 DDC Atlases, then put remaining 8 into other team that only has medium and heavy LRM boats. Don't need to be a genius to figure out who is gonna win.

[Rumrunner2]

Im really upset about this "Mismatchmaker". And angry about PGI, since last week only silence...no words, no comments, no changes.... I bet they really believe everything is fine and they did a good job. LOL.

To prevent myself to get more upset I deinstalled the game sunday evening.

[PhoenixFire55]

I want those smart PGI guys who came up with the ELO matchmaking system to try and win a game like this ...

[Dan Nashe]

It feels like I'm getting trapped in group play by Elo because it feels like I only have one Elo per weight class and maybe the group elo bump is too small.

In other words I think lets say I'm an Elo 1000 solo player. But when I group with others, be it a 1500 player or another low player we perform at maybe a 1400 level. Result is I matchmake at a 1200 average in all games, causing me to win 25% of my solo games and 75% of my group drops.

I only drop with what are pick up noguts teamspeak groups, not real premades. So it may be that I group with 1500 players producing an average elo that lets the 1500 player wreckingball.

Overall Elo has produced noticably more closer games, but my solo vs group win rates are still way out of kilter.

[Void Angel]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

So much hate.

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Nobody needs this ELO crap which makes no sense anyway
Current matchmaking system is for stupid moneybag players who can't play for crap and getting stomped all the time because they go into the open and eat 200 LRMs
they only care about 'lone wolves' because blah blah blah
all they do is done in favor of lone wolves (and bad ones at that)
everything that precious PUG-whiners whined about had been changed accordingly to what those whiners wanted
'lone wolves' are the majority you see, majority that knows nothing about BattleTech / MechWarrior, majority that has no respect to BattleTech / MechWarrior
I hate people who start crying about the fact that there is somebody who is better then they are, somebody who puts some effort into finding others to team up with, somebody who puts a lot of effort into practicing with his unit and improving his skills. ELO is here only because of such crying babies
judging by your attitude you don't have any friends to drop with anyway
And there is the reason for your hate ... poor baby getting stomped by supposedly sync-dropping 8 man premades. Don't cry poor baby, here have a lollipop ... Now please go to your ELO below zero zone and don't bother grown-ups.

Hate, indeed. And hypocrisy, too. Your entire participation in this thread has been one long string of diatribe and invective. My characterization of people who cheat as "cheaters" hardly compares.

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

...in your ignorance you forgot that sync-dropping has an equal if not better chance to place two groups of four into different teams in the same game. That would be bringing organization to BOTH teams. Besides, nor I, nor anybody else I know who do sync-dropping really cares about what other team has, PUGs, premades. I am not responsible for the level of organization somebody else brings into the battle. Only reason why people do it is because they want to play with 5, 6, 7 friends and PGI won't allow us to do it normally. You never really thought about it because judging by your attitude you don't have any friends to drop with anyway.

Really? The only reason people drop in an 8-man premade is because they only want to play with their friends? No one notices when a group of 6 players synch drop - you don't notice, I don't notice. What we do notice is when there are entire 8-mans of enemy players with the same house tag, team-wide fast responses, and/or actual announcements ("How you like that [unskilled guildname redacted] ambush?" "SQUAAAAAAAAAAAWK!") So you're not going to get away with trying to re-define yourselves as poor, downtrodden souls who "just want to play with their friends, and PGI is ever so mean and won't let us!" Sorry, but the Oliver Twist defense just isn't going to fly. It all boils down to an excuse to cheat - and since people only complain about synch droppers when it looks like an 8-man team, this is just another disingenuous attempt to deflect the issue.

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Oh and btw, next time your country goes to war or smth, go PUG in the frontline, will ya? Because obviousely your army is a bunch of cheaters and exploiters that use it teamwork that is so OP and requires less skill.

I've already answered this objection, so I'm going to assume you're out of arguments. Just as well, since you haven't made one valid point, or rebutted any of my objections.

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

... poor baby getting stomped by supposedly sync-dropping 8 man premades. Don't cry poor baby, here have a lollipop ... Now please go to your ELO below zero zone and don't bother grown-ups.

And we're done here. Your resort to outright lies and unsupported insults is just icing on the cake. You've completely lost the argument when you debase yourself to trolling. You embarrass me.

[ferluci]

Some people see post above defend the ELO because they themselves troll people in their powerbuilds and are not interested in the rest of the mechs. They think it is fair ELO drops you against their trolling teams without factoring weight classes, see screenshots above. I know one thing and that is I had more fun when the matches where better equalized with weight class then with this new ELO system that lets the troll players exploit it more then the sync droppers ever could. ELO is not about skill or level but about only playing those few powerful mechs you got that drop great with no weight class match up what so ever. Elo forces teams to play " cheese" teams if they want constant wins, cause weight is not matching them anyway. ( i guess everyone has seen the 4 raven 3l drops when your team has no to 1 light, or the WTF how can they have 4 atlas and 4 heavy while we have 1 atlas and 7 mediums). O yeah "skill"level. Well i say i have had less fun to much frustration since ELO while i was a happy player before that. SO no, this new matchmaking system has at least broken my game and my sense of what is fair. I do not mind fighting players of my level or even better, i do mind when i get ELOed on about every drop in a negative way.

You may blame me flame me for my 2 cents worth
But remember friendly fire isn't.

[Maik Hawkins]

Phase 3 is incredible...
Awesome combinations! 4 Lights, 2 Med and 2 Assault vs 4 Assault, 2 Heavy, 1 Light and one Med ....

Please change ELO rating!!!
An very good elo rating should boost a pilot and his choosen mechclass only by one class....

Better would be:

4 ELO ratings per pilot, one per mechclass!

I´ll not continue pay anything for MWO if these crab will be fixed (and at least 2 further maps will be released).

just my 2 ct

P.S. I´m trying to skill my Ravens - no chance to collect XP, cause 80% of the rounds I´m playing 4 or more lights ´re in my theam against teams full of heavys and assaults... only alpine makes it possible to win!

[Void Angel]

ferluci, on 26 February 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Some people see post above defend the ELO because they themselves troll people in their powerbuilds and are not interested in the rest of the mechs. They think it is fair ELO drops you against their trolling teams without factoring weight classes, see screenshots above. I know one thing and that is I had more fun when the matches where better equalized with weight class then with this new ELO system that lets the troll players exploit it more then the sync droppers ever could. ELO is not about skill or level but about only playing those few powerful mechs you got that drop great with no weight class match up what so ever. Elo forces teams to play " cheese" teams if they want constant wins, cause weight is not matching them anyway. ( i guess everyone has seen the 4 raven 3l drops when your team has no to 1 light, or the WTF how can they have 4 atlas and 4 heavy while we have 1 atlas and 7 mediums). O yeah "skill"level. Well i say i have had less fun to much frustration since ELO while i was a happy player before that. SO no, this new matchmaking system has at least broken my game and my sense of what is fair. I do not mind fighting players of my level or even better, i do mind when i get ELOed on about every drop in a negative way.

You may blame me flame me for my 2 cents worth
But remember friendly fire isn't.

I really haven't seen much of that - though my energy has been expended arguing with synch droppers who want their exploit back.

Certainly, I don't think there's a rational argument to be made that the current matchmaker is working as intended - but Elo itself is not at fault. I strongly suspect that the matchmaker is prioritizing Elo over weight class at some point in its algorithm, and that this is what's causing most of the problems. Elo is a good system for matching player skill, but since the lobby system isn't in the game yet, we're seeing Elo cause the mismatching of player roles. It's all well and good that my opponents have roughly the same Elo - but if I'm on a team of 6 lights, I'm going to win most conquest matches - and the only good chance I have to win Assault is by sneak capping.

I REALLY think this needs to be changed (revert the system if necessary) in order to prevent the skewing of playtesting demographic data.

[Tolkien]

Void Angel, on 26 February 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

I really haven't seen much of that - though my energy has been expended arguing with synch droppers who want their exploit back.

Certainly, I don't think there's a rational argument to be made that the current matchmaker is working as intended - but Elo itself is not at fault. I strongly suspect that the matchmaker is prioritizing Elo over weight class at some point in its algorithm, and that this is what's causing most of the problems. Elo is a good system for matching player skill, but since the lobby system isn't in the game yet, we're seeing Elo cause the mismatching of player roles. It's all well and good that my opponents have roughly the same Elo - but if I'm on a team of 6 lights, I'm going to win most conquest matches - and the only good chance I have to win Assault is by sneak capping.

I REALLY think this needs to be changed (revert the system if necessary) in order to prevent the skewing of playtesting demographic data.

Sounds like much of the feedback on Phase 3 is that Phase 4 can't come soon enough. Hopefully Phase 4 will take into account ELO as well as have some sort of a battle value system.

I say battle value and not tonnage since a mech that has double heatsinks and endo steel upgrades, and elites unlocked is worth far more than the trial version. When the clans show up tonnage will be an even less useful measure of capability.

[John MatriX82]

We need to introduce a weight value or yes battlevalue, into ELO. Later on I practically need to play assaults just trying to outbalance the weight of the enemy team.

During the weekend I took advantage of the 50% Cbills boost of my AS7 D, but now that I have to exp the trebuchets.. I always end up in underweighted teams..

[Blackavar]

Rumrunner2, on 26 February 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

To prevent myself to get more upset I deinstalled the game sunday evening.

This, although I uninstalled it just now rather than Sunday. My working day is fairly stressful (for various unimportant reasons) at the moment, and before ELO matchmaking came in I was playing MWO to relax. Now I dare not play - more than half my recent games have been a complete steamroller by the other team, and there has been a significant mass advantage on their side when I checked the end screen.

Maybe I'm just playing badly, but I'm not actually having any fun in game right now. I used to be able to at least come out of 90% of my matches feeling like I was more than target practice. Not any more, I think I've had one game since the last patch that felt like I did well.

Really hoping the system gets tweaked soon, before my premium time runs out completely.

[John MatriX82]

Blackavar, on 27 February 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Really hoping the system gets tweaked soon, before my premium time runs out completely.

That's why I haven't yet (gladly) activated my founder premium time..

[Vocis]

I haven't seen a match where the tonnage difference was less than 200 in 15+ matches.

Something isn't working right.

Edited by Vocis, 27 February 2013 - 07:43 PM.

[Blue Max]

Just had a drop against 8 assault (atlas and awesome mix) and we had 2......wished i screen shot it.

[Void Angel]

Blue Max, on 27 February 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Just had a drop against 8 assault (atlas and awesome mix) and we had 2......wished i screen shot it.

I'm pretty sure everyone believes you anyway. =)

Honestly, I really do think that it's simply a priority issue. Move weight classes higher up their priority list in matching and things will work ok.

[Void Angel]

Tolkien, on 26 February 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Sounds like much of the feedback on Phase 3 is that Phase 4 can't come soon enough. Hopefully Phase 4 will take into account ELO as well as have some sort of a battle value system.

I say battle value and not tonnage since a mech that has double heatsinks and endo steel upgrades, and elites unlocked is worth far more than the trial version. When the clans show up tonnage will be an even less useful measure of capability.

It really isn't that bad; I've had some lopsided matches, but most matches are relatively fine - you only have to really worry if you take a long time to get a match.

As far as battle value, that might be ok, but it's not strictly required - for example, I don't field a 'mech until I have at least basic upgrades for it (double heat sinks, for example.) The drawback to using battlevalue is that I'd expect a tremendous amount of work to be required in order to balance BV to match the actual effectiveness of items - in addition to balancing the items themselves. That's time I'd rather see spent on developing other areas of the game.

[Tolkien]

Void Angel, on 27 February 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

It really isn't that bad; I've had some lopsided matches, but most matches are relatively fine - you only have to really worry if you take a long time to get a match.

As far as battle value, that might be ok, but it's not strictly required - for example, I don't field a 'mech until I have at least basic upgrades for it (double heat sinks, for example.) The drawback to using battlevalue is that I'd expect a tremendous amount of work to be required in order to balance BV to match the actual effectiveness of items - in addition to balancing the items themselves. That's time I'd rather see spent on developing other areas of the game.

Just to play devil's advocate, I've found matchmaker phase 3 has made the game less balanced, just by the impact it has had on my personal stats.

Phase 2: Win/Loss was 62.5%, K/D was 2.62

Since the start of phase 3 I have played another 150 games or so, and now have

Win/Loss 62.9%, K/D 2.88

So at least for me the phase 3 matchmaker has pushed me further away from either a 1:1 kill death or a 50/50 win chance which is what it should be doing if it is presenting equal matches.

Again the reason points/BV are preferable to weight is that clan tech will break weight again so they may as well do it right in the first place rather than have to redo it later?

[Xie Belvoule]

[Alex Harding]

The ELO system is SOOOO GOOOD, it made me to write my first QQ post ever.

By messing up with weight system the matchmaking went to total randomness. It didn't screw up my statistics much (except win/loss ratio). I still get some kills each match, but the victory is totally random based on what teams gets more tonnage and more LRMs. Its just not entertaining anymore. No amount of skill will help 4 lights and 4 mediums against tight packed group of atlases (except base cap which is so much fun). I've seen lots of matches where enemy had 50%+ advantage in tonnage. Outcome was predictable.

I'm in for several months, and I was okay with all of the changes in that time, not happy with some of them, but at least they made sense in a way or I would just grit my teeth and bear with the bugs. But this last patch really killed the fun in game, it lost all the feeling of balance.

Not sure how did you guys intended that thing to work, but matching teams by grouping good and terrible players to get a sum of skill and throwing random weight classes in is the worst idea ever. If it was supposed to work in a different way I didn't notice it.

Please don't turn this game into WoT.