483 replies to this topic

[Bhan Zor]

My observations with Elo the last 2 Weeks can be summed up like this: 9 out of 10 matches its a roflstomp, usually in the 8-1 ballpark. And its a lottery on which side you end up.

I'm not getting into the tonnage debate, as this doesnt seem to be the main issue here. The main problem seems to be that one team gets salted with too many unexperienced (or sometimes stupid) players when there arent enough players in a similar Elo range.

The sad part is, it felt better before or in the beginning of Elo and degraded gradually. To me this is a clear sign that something is not working right.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

ELO is a bad idea.
1. Its broken
2. It will be manipulated
3. It will take away time for other issues that are more important and effect if we will have a MWO in 2 years.
4. SEE 1
5. you can manipulate your ELO which as of now isnt that big of a deal, but when the meta game comes ( if ) then it will be.
6. Its going to add to the huge pile of crap that already turns off casual players, and new players. This is key in the MWO future and considering how many players are already leaving I'd really be worried here.

As a parting note I laid it so the next forum troll can cry tears of noobness on it with the quote system. Hmm perhaps we should add that to the soon to be consumable magic traits.. Tears of noobness: instantly turns your mech into a splatcat.

Edited by Zerstorer Stallin, 17 March 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Why has this thread been moved to patch notes?!? shouldnt it be in game balance? Smells fishy.

[Khell DarkWolf]

ELO is bad for this game because its a team game.

Don't do what League of Legends has done for their elo system as it only proves frustrating which you are steering for already.
Because if your a good player, you keep throwing in the players that have no idea what they are doing with them to balance the ELO which drags the team & fun of the match and really screws everything up.


It also will not work in its current form because of how there is a lack of proper communication tools in-game.

Typing in chat only gets you so far and doesn't work when in the heat of battle, League of Legends can get away with it a little bit because they have a large minimap to ping that is always in view to the player.

We have no in-game voice comms for the pugs, which hinders the team play ability.


You have to keep the weight to weight class matching in to balance things out and conform the players based on number of matches played (within the bracket) like it had been suggested by some League of Legends to counter the ELO.

Or another thing to look at, is to change entirely how matchmaking works by not using a random map sandbox arena battle.

This is starting to get way too Arcade-like to feel like a massive multiplayer online game. Were not liking the Direction this game is going

Edited by Khell DarkWolf, 17 March 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[Yokaiko]

...and they are shutting down ELO threads in general.

[RockWolf]

Lobbies.

[Zeus X]

RockWolf, on 17 March 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

Lobbies.

Lobbies with the ability to do 1v8, 2v2, 1v1, 3v5, 2v3, I think you get the idea...

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

If I understand it correctly Elo system takes into account whether player is winning or losing (without any other factors). It works well for chess (from where is it taken) because there are only 1 vs 1 games. Here we have 8 vs 8 game, so the fact whether I win or lose doesn't depend on my performance only, but also my teammates'. I can win the match while doing absolutly nothing and have my Elo rating increased, and can lose while killing 7 oponents by myself and get killed by 8th - and have my Elo decreased.
Does it actually work like that or am I missing something?

[BFett]

Taking a few more factors into account when a player wishes to auto-join a match could help even teams even more. I made a poll about this here.

[Ghost_19Hz]

More often than not i will get lots of players on my team scoring in the sub 100 damage category, while the other team has several 300-600 damage scoring players. I'm flattered that it thinks i can carry them, but really its quite frustrating.

[Zerberus]

*Wall of unedited Text to follow, possible incoherence not to be excluded*

I don`t know if it`s ELO, MM or whatever, and it doesn`t really matter from my perspective as a Betatester /player, it`S teh DEVs job to take my statements and figure out what exactly is broken, and fix it

But. for FOUR DAYS now I have I have been almost exclusively dropped as the only assault into a team without ECM and with a 200+ ton weight disadvantage, on both my D and my RS chassis. Approximately half of those matches appeared to be against premade groups (4x+ founders from the same house. Admittedly just an assumption.). In NONE of those matches were there less than 2 DDC and 1 raven on the enemy side.

That`s cool for a match or two, maybe even 5 or 10. NOT for over 100 on 4 consecutive days. Since returning, in my 300 matches I had a W/L ratio of .94 and a K/D of .68. both of those numbers are now at. .62 and .28, respectively, only my accuracy has gone up measurably, EVERYTHING else has gone down. The small percentage that were wins were either the rare case that I was on the OP side and really more of a decoration on the battlefield, or the 5 or somatches that were made in seconds without a long drop-wait rthat were amazingly balanced.

So I`m either a decoraton or I`m everybody'`s cannon fodder, what an excellent way to feel. I know a large part of this is the PUG community per se, but this is just ridiculously one.sided in every damn match. I feel like a cheater when I win and I feel like a n00b when I lose, how unbelivably thrilling. Yeah, I know the stomp isn`t primarily "my fault" , but if I hit you in the face a hundred times will saying it`s not your fault really make it feel better?
I mean, Why should I invest effort if I know before pressing "Launch" that it`s going to be a one sided stompfest with a premade 4 man with 2 DDCs and 2 3ls will locate, target, and annihilate me, partly because my lancemates are all driving trial commandos and other light mechs they stole from a junkyard on Outreach that look like the beheaded chickens they`re playing like? "OMFG, A LASERBEAM, SCATTER!!!!!" *facepalm*

Unfortunately, my motivation to purchase a third chassis for eventual mastery of my atlases, or even drop at all for that matter, is pretty close to zero right now. Sure, the DC is the logical choice, but I don`t see the motivation of grinding through a brutally flawed MM process at 150k/hour when I was able top do that in one match just 96 hours ago, and can easily earn more by connecting and DCing with multiple mechs simultaneously. Especially not with the express purpose of buying a mech SOLELY becasue of the way it can mount a single piece of hardware that ensds up stacked to create a massive imbalance in almost every game I`m "lucky" enough to be involved in. So I need to grind though this for another week at the current rate, just so I can get the same equipment that I normally would have purchased this afternoon, just so that I can maybe have fun again by getting a win or 2 because with ECM I`ll maybe gtet oput on teh OP side more ooften... All expressly at the cost of making the problem causing my issues even greater for everybody else? Yeah, I`d feel really great about that.

I feel like either the learning curve has gone straight up, or I am in some dort of bracket that either says "Best mechwarrior ever, give him a challenge" or "Worst piece of freebirth scum in the IS, use only for target practice".. and that`s exactly what I get, matches nobody could ever concievably win vs huge tonnage and total ECM advantages, usually against premade teams.

If it were CS, where all there is is me, my m4, and pure, unadulterated tactics, that`s enough to take out 31 people who aren`t communicating, andoften enough 6 that are. I can find a way to win there. But this is not CS, this is the equivalent of giving me an AWP/Desert, grenades and armor, and giving the rest of my team a glock and 1 mag, but no armor or grenades, and allowing the other team to hack the textures away from the models and leave a wireframe. The big joke beiing that MY guys also turn into the wireframe model when they get close, rendering me equally as ineffective as they are because I have no idea who I can shoot and who I can`t (unless I just start shooting randomly at anything that moves, which as we all know is unbelievably effective), nor do they.

I don`t care about stats per se, but this one weekend has essentially completely annihilated any good stats that were there, with extreme prejudice. If humans were making the matches and not an obviously flawed computer program, I would no longer see a reason to be here because it would be "obviously fixed", in the negative sense. If this is still in place when the game goes live, it will die very quickly, because as soon as one has the feeling of any significant progress the game decides "you need to suffer". until you log out. Then you log back in a few hours later, win one match, think "Ok maybe.." and the next hour is again spent getting stomped into the ground for 35k bills every 10 minutes.

Or maybe I just need to log out and back on before joining matches... that seems to be the only situation where I regularly get a fair setup on both sides...*facepalm*
__________________

Bottom line: For people in my "bracket" and weight class, the game currently borders on unplayable, and is at best described as "highly demotivating" with matches "usually impossible to win by any rational assessment", for MULTIPLE reasons, all but one directly regarding the computer determined constellation of the encounter whether intentional or not. That one being lack of communication among groups of random players, but that is a different topic for a different thread.

PS: It is of course whollly possible that I just flat out suck.... but then I have a hard time understanding how the numbers from the first 300 games are possible with the exact same mech and player, especially since they wer consistently climbing the last 50 or so matches. Wins were climbing ins at about a 5/4 rate and kills at about 3:1, with a death every 4 to four matches, win or lose. Now reversed to what feels like 1/9 and 1:4 with a death in almost every loss and almost never in a win, WORSE than during my cadet phase in a trial Stalker, and definitely nowhere near the 400 dmg + 1-2 kills match I was doing in my Atlases until this "bad luck" streak started. Interestingly enough, it started at pretty much the exact point where I purchased the 330standard for my RS and was in a great mood becasue of i. Though I have a hard time believing that upgrading an engine, adding a heat sink, and thereby using all 100 tons instead of only 92.5 is somehow related in more than conspiracy theory....

Edited by Zerberus, 17 March 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I just dropped in a match against a team with 4 Raven 3Ls, an ECM Streak Commando, and an X5 with streaks. We had 2 lights and no ECM.

Please fix this, PGI. Elo is not working on its own. We NEED weight class matching. And weapon balancing, but that's another thread. I continue to spend money on this game because I believe it will eventually get better, but oh man do I regret being a founder sometimes.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 17 March 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[Maxx Blue]

I can't say if it is the matchmaker or not, but recently the vast majority of the games I've been in end up with only one or two mechs dead on the winning team. I very rarely get in 'close' games where at least half the mechs are gone on the winning side. For whatever reason it is usually one team utterly steamrolling the other. I can't really tell if this is due to the matchmaking or just a natural consequence of the way the game plays. Sure there is the occasional game where it comes down to two ravens trying to leg each other, or a 6v8 where the 8-man team gets rolled, but in a very noticable majority of the game's I've been playing the winning team usually doesn't loose more than two mechs.

EDIT: So, of course after posting this, I had about four great matches in a row where the fights were close with no more than half the winning team left alive. It's like the game heard me complaining!

Edited by Maxx Blue, 18 March 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Ryvucz]

This is by far the biggest kick in the nuts. Conquest on Alpine Peaks, tell me this is how it's intended.


I think I've stuck enough anger on this feedback post, I'll refrain from continuing, please adjust this silliness. '(^.^)'

[Zerberus]

^^Alpine is actually the ONLY map where I feel lucky, because there all the lights I get paired with are to my team`s advantage, and for that I`ll gladly die in a hail of LRMS from the enemy `s main force wanting to take epsilon. Wouldn`t surprise me one bit of all my wins of the last 96 hours were on Alpine

Edited by Zerberus, 17 March 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Again I have to ask why this thread is buried in the Patch feedback, what BS. It should be in game balance.

[Aratan Aenor]

Since MM Phase 3: 89 Matches, 33 Wins, 56 Losses, .58 WLR, 63 Kills, 64 Deaths, .98 KDR

Prior to MM Phase 3: 304 Matches, 139 Wins, 165 Losses, .84 WLR, 235 Kills, 162 Deaths, 1.45 KDR

In every match that I've won since Phase 3 started, I've had 0 kills and the least amount of damage done on my team.

In every game that I've lost, I've had at least 1 kill, the most damage done on my team, and sometimes even more damage done than the rest of my team combined.

It's also worth noting that in games that I've won, I was paired with premades who rolled over the enemy team before I could even get into the fight, while all of my loses were on PUG teams with mostly trials who played like they had no idea what they were doing.

[Genewen]

Matchmaking is currently like a rollercoaster. Sometimes, both sides get equally decent (or stupid, depending on the point of view. If I am involved, it is definitely equally stupid) players assigned and once in a blue moon, even the ECM capabilities are somewhat balanced. But then again, you get matches where you can only facepalm because either your or the enemy team behaves like a bunch of apes.

Just one example: Yesterday, Forest Colony.
The tonnage was pretty balanced, although the enemy team had 2 ECMs (Raven 3L and Atlas D-DC). 30s into the game, the first facepalm moment. Looking at the map, 4 guys went water, 2 center and 1 went cave. And no, the cave was not a scout. The last player sat at the base, he joined us 2min later. Asking the guys to stay together except for scouts, the caveman answered: "I'm going wherever the F* I want".
Near the end, one of our teammates, a catapult, just ran off into the enemy base, leaving me and another teammate to fend the 3 remaining enemies ourselves. After asking him to stay with us and fight, I got the answer that he had no ammo left - he did not have enough CBs to equip his mech properly. The other remaining teammate seemed to admire the landscape most of the time.
End result: We lost 8:6, I did 1022 dmg, the next best player in our team got a clean 200dmg in and 5/8 were under 100. As deceivingly close as the game seemed, it was just not fun for me.

Edited by Genewen, 18 March 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[WolvesX]

"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth;

not going all the way,

and not starting."

TL;DR: Different skill levels together with Elo influences the view of a player in regards to balance heavily, though different gaming experience.

---

Greetings fellow BETA Testers,

this thread is about how the skill and the personal goals of a player, infuences her view on game balance.

I just started a new account recently, only to find out what low Elo matches work and how thing there work out. The first 27 matches, I let my 4 year old cousin play. 0 - 26 damage, he was exited never the less btw. after he made this account ready to play for me, I started playing on it, to see what is going on in the "lower" area of the new Elo system.

A quote I often read in the forums:
"Ravens got ECM, who cares I just shoot them with my guns" - Yes, actually in a low Elo environment, you can do this.

Even if the L3s there, are 3ML /2SSRM ECM, most I saw got STD engines, single heat sinks or some other crutch that made them ineffective. They stand still to hit better I guess... actually, one L3 stoped shooting me after I powered my mech down (!) and run away. LRM spamfest with terrible builds, I can understand what peps are talking about now.

My point is, there are different "worlds" we are playing in as community. If you see Broceratops with his crew fighting seriously in 8v8, you know the difference between PUG and competitive play.

The infuence on the forums and on the balance:
"LRMs are OP, way too much damage, you need ECM or you are dead!" - Nerf hills and buildings.

In a free land, like france or austria, everyone can say what he wants to do, same in the internet, same in the MWO forums, so regardless of your actual knowledge of the game mechanics or your skill level, you are able to post your opinion and through different skill niveaus, there will be always some peps that agree with you, regardless how mad the statement is. (MGs are good)


Summary I:
Yes, Cooling Flush will not be that big deal in a mid Elo PUG game, but 8v8 competitive play... do the math, not to think of 8x Air + 8x Arty...

ECM is op.

MGs, Flamers, LBX are worthless.

The only light mech in the game is the L3.

There is only the D-DC.

These things are all true when high Elo players fight other high Elo players. In low Elo, not so much.

I think a game should be balanced around HIGH Elo, around competitive environments and

not around PUG games.

In high Elo play there is no MG spider!
Zombie Cents, D3 GERPPC, LRM STK, D-DC, L3, A1 Skillcat, PPC STK, 5LL23. You call that cheese? I call it a good choise of mechs to play effective. Do I want a better balance, resulting in more viable builds? Yes, of couse.

Therefor, what's really needed is a balance around HIGH Elo gameplay, like in LoL, Dota, Starcraft.


But I'm a casual player! I don't have time all the day to play games!
Yup! I also don't like to play my best builds all the time, some times I want to play a 4 MG spider not matter how ridiculous it is. Therefore we need:

Ranked and Unranked games.

Elo is a must in both to have a fair match, but in ranked games, the mindset is: I want to win! As opposed to the casual mindset I want to shoot mechs.


As a matter of balance and fairness:

We don't need open stats, but we need small "shields" near our name, like:

GREEN = Rookie
BLUE = Mechwarrior
ORANGE = Veteran 25%
RED = Elite 5%
(GOLD = Legendary 1%)

and for a matter of balance, or example Elites should no matched against Rookies and if the MM system does match them, you know there is a problem (ingame).

Also an option like: Searching for Games OR Searching for FAIR Games, resulting in a longer search, would be great.

What do you think?

Wolves

TL;DR: Different skill levels together with Elo influences the view of a player in regards to balance heavily, though different gaming experience.

EDIT: Thank you for your imput!

5LL 23 DHS STK

EDIT:

Elo should be not for classes, but for single mechs.

Explaination:

AWE-M9 -> Player X got exactly the same build as player Y.

AWE-M9 with player X got a rating of 3000.
AWE-M9 with player Y got a rating of 1700.

This makes every match fair, regardless of the equip or the mech.

AWE-M9 with 6 small laser, could have a rating of 3000, IF player X can do as much good as a an other player with 4 PPC.
AWE-M9 with 5 LLs 20 DHS..., could have a rating of 20, IF my 4 years old cousin plays it.

Totaly balanced and fair.

[Airwolf]

Ditto on the "something's not quite right" and yes, I'm being polite in the phrasing of the statement as the words that are actually going through my mind are such that the forum filter would pretty much filter ... well .... everything .

if the MM and/or ELO is trying to make it so that my team wins roughly 50% of the time, then according to my current stats, it's pretty much succeeded. Am I entirely happy about that? ... no, not really... but <shrug>.

The biggest thing that I've noticed are how the games play out now. It seems like it's either roll or be rolled 80+% of the time. It's rarely the knock-down, drag-out, down to the last couple of mechs like we used to have. More times than not, especially those games that we've lost, there's a sizeable weight or tactical advantage on the other team. I don't know if I've played so much that this ELO feels that I should be able to overcome whatever numerical/weight/tactical advantage it decides to throw at my team. There have been too many instances where we've either dropped short a mech or someone DCs before the match actually starts.

A couple of 'memorable' MM/ELO 'fairness' matchup fubars --

1) Map: Frozen city. Mode: Assault. Drop Point: low side. Our team: 1 Assault, 1 Light, mix of Mediums/Heavy - 1 mech short on drop. Their team, 4 Assaults, 2 Lights, 2 Heavies. Result: we got rolled, 0 kills on our side.

and my favorite:

2) Map: Alpine Peaks. Mode Conquest. Drop Point: high side. Our team: 1 Cicada, 2 Trenchbuckets, the other 5, mix of Assaults and Heavies. Their team: 2 Raven 3Ls, 1 Commando, 1 X-5, don't remember the rest. Result: They annihilated our Cidada and Trenchbuckets and then won by out-capping us.

Fair??? Hardly ... Fun??? No ... GG??? Not in my opinion ...