96 replies to this topic

[Solis Obscuri]

stjobe, on 19 February 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

It's actually even more than that. It clocks in at 5.082 DPS against internal components. Nobody's saying that's bad.


The problem is it still only does 0.4 DPS to armour, making its value on the battlefield dubious at best. Something needs to remove that armour for the MG to do its work, and it won't be the MG itself - leaving any 'mech relying on the MG useless still.

I dunno - it sounds to me like I'm I'm carrying some strip armor effectively, the MG is an excellent secondary weapon for disabling or killing enemies I've damaged.

It also sounds like ballistic-carrying lights will be effective in the capacity of "mopping up" damaged units as well.

The MG doesn't have to be the best stand-alone system in the game to be worth two tons.

[Tilon]

Huntsman, on 19 February 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Why this convoluted crit system? Some misguided attempt to stick to TT rules in a spot where it's not workable to do so? Just ditch this crit garbage and buff the damage of the machine gun for crying out loud?

Yeah, because Lord knows the one thing this world needs more of is a game where damage is no more complicated than boring health bars.

[Chromoid]

I use 3XMGs on my Brawler Hunchback. It's quite effective, once the large pulse lasers in my arms open the enemies up and it helps to conserve my heat, which would skyrocket if I kept using the lasers.

Mainly, the thing with MGs is to pinpoint damaged areas on a 'mech, which in my case is sometimes difficult to do. That said, it'll shear an enemy's chassis like a sheep once their armor's gone.

[LogicSol]

Honestly, don't get me wrong, they could double or even triple the vs armor damage of the machine gun. It's pretty useless against armor even with that.
That's fine either way. The gun is for harassment/crit seeking and is light. It doesn't need the front end boost to be useful.

[Bhael Fire]

General Taskeen, on 19 February 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

The problem Bhael, is that you are saying that an MG is a support-harasser weapon. Not even the game description of the MG says that.

What's your point? Yes...I am saying that because many players are failing to see the obvious merits of MGs...almost as if they need it literally spelled out for them.

What else would you use the MG for? It does virtually no damage against armored targets and it can't be used beyond short range, but it weighs almost nothing and can fire continuously without generating heat and if used against unarmored mechs it becomes deadly. So...It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that it's best used as a light weight weapon to harass players and keep them distracted while you hit them with heavier weapons.

[Znail]

LogicSol, on 19 February 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Honestly, don't get me wrong, they could double or even triple the vs armor damage of the machine gun. It's pretty useless against armor even with that.
That's fine either way. The gun is for harassment/crit seeking and is light. It doesn't need the front end boost to be useful.

That is the point, doubling the damage would indeed put it around the DPS it needs. It will still not be an awesome weapon, but it will no longer cripple lights who have to rely on them.

[shintakie]

Solis Obscuri, on 19 February 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

I dunno - it sounds to me like I'm I'm carrying some strip armor effectively, the MG is an excellent secondary weapon for disabling or killing enemies I've damaged.

It also sounds like ballistic-carrying lights will be effective in the capacity of "mopping up" damaged units as well.

The MG doesn't have to be the best stand-alone system in the game to be worth two tons.

And energy carrying lights will be effective the whole fight. Do you not see the issue there?

[Mao of DC]

I like the MG I used them before the patch as a "cool down" weapon. It let me keep causeing damage to my target while my heat is to high to use my main weapons.

[General Taskeen]

Bhael Fire, on 19 February 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

What else would you use the MG for? It does virtually no damage against armored targets and it can't be used beyond short range, but it weighs almost nothing and can fire continuously without generating heat and if used against unarmored mechs it becomes deadly. So...It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that it's best used as a light weight weapon to harass players and keep them distracted while you hit them with heavier weapons.

Dude, what people are saying is they want the MG to do damage vs. Armor. The MG as a crit seeker is a gimmick IMO. What you're saying can go both ways. I constantly cite the MW3 MG, its great, its fun, and good vs. Armor at short range. They did it by giving the MG a cool down, to balance the fact it produces no heat. So yeah, it fires continuously, based on how it is currently programmed in MWO, but it doesn't need to is the point. Having them as 0 cool down weapons just regresses their damage model.

[Commander Kobold]

Voridan Atreides, on 19 February 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

So I have not used them. Are they at least useable now? Say I have a left over balistic slot and I cannot fit anything else expept an MG. Should I put it on or not?

they're usefull once the target has its armor stripped, it's mostly for trying to find ammo and make booms

[Psikez]

Lightfoot, on 19 February 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

16x MG Puma, 1400 rounds.

FFS you know my secrets

Bhael Fire, on 19 February 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

What's your point? Yes...I am saying that because many players are failing to see the obvious merits of MGs...almost as if they need it literally spelled out for them.

What else would you use the MG for? It does virtually no damage against armored targets and it can't be used beyond short range, but it weighs almost nothing and can fire continuously without generating heat and if used against unarmored mechs it becomes deadly. So...It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that it's best used as a light weight weapon to harass players and keep them distracted while you hit them with heavier weapons.

I could take those 2 MGs and ammo off and have 2 more heat sinks and fire useful weapons that much more often. If the target I'm fighting is terrible enough to be distracted by MGs I don't think I need to worry about anything they're going to do anyway.

[Royalewithcheese]

Legacy mechanics are cool and add flavor? But OTOH I sorta felt bad for a light that was trying to kill my Atlas with MGs earlier tonight. There's no "not intended for use on battlemechs" warning label on the thing.

[ScholarHim]

I have to agree with those that request a boost. I don't see how you can call them harasser weapons. Considering that about 90% of the time they will do you no damage, the only distraction is my own chuckling. In any given fight 1 more medium laser is so much more effective than 2 machineguns and 1 ammo pack. If a Mech is running around naked, wouldn't just about anything kill it anyway? I don't see any point in specializing in a weapon that requires other players to kill a guy 90% of the way, just so you can find some use on the battlefield. What if your the only one left on the battlefield? Your going to use a weapon that will condemn you to a loss just because the opponent still has some underwear on? Why not be useful for the entire battle with 1 medium laser instead? If you need a weapon that does almost no damage to use while your cooling off, wouldn't it be wiser to address the issue and add heat sincs?

[Solis Obscuri]

shintakie, on 19 February 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

And energy carrying lights will be effective the whole fight. Do you not see the issue there?

I don't know of any lights that are armed exclusively with machine guns, so I don't foresee a problem. Lights with more lasers may strip armor quicker, but MGs will finish off damaged opponents quicker.

And frankly, it's all a moot point while the SSRM remains supreme in light 'mech combat.

[Ngamok]

Had fun in my Dragon 5N tonight. Two Large Lasers, One SSRM2, and Three Machine Guns. Once mechs got their armor stripped there were times where mechs just melted in front of me by me critting their internals up. So many components destroyed flying on my screen.

[Phoenix Gray]

Voridan Atreides, on 19 February 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

So I have not used them. Are they at least useable now? Say I have a left over balistic slot and I cannot fit anything else expept an MG. Should I put it on or not?

Why not? If nothing else it adds to the audio experience.

[Mr Mantis]

maybe i am confused, misguided, or just thinking about it wrong, but when i think the most useful mech to have a machine gun on would be a light mech. They can support the larger mechs with some quick crits when the armor falls and then head to the next target.

[MustrumRidcully]

Solis Obscuri, on 19 February 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

If I read the patch notes correctly, the MG has a 25% chance to hit per shot, with a a 14% increased chance to crit once, an 8% increased chance to crit twice, and a 3% increased chance to crit 3 times, and respective damage of 0.5, 1.0, and 1.5 per shot. Given that the MG does damage, what, 10 times per second? that equates to an average of 2.5 crits per second, with an average damage of 0.78 per crit, or roughly 1.95 damage to internal components per second. From one 0.5 ton weapon.

By contrast, even a currently "good" crit seeking weapon like an AC/10 fires once every 2.3 seconds for 10 damage, or 4.35 damage per second if it hit an internal - from a 12 ton weapon. 4 MGs would do 7.8 critical damage to component each second, while weighing in at just two tons. That's a huge boost for knocking out ammo bins, weapons, and engines in damaged sections.

And yet, think about how long it takes you with a 4 MG and 1 Medium Laser Spider to get to those internals.

The only way you can actually utilize this great critting bonus is someone else opened it up for you. That means your role is at best a "Finisher". But it isn't, because all you do is damage internal components, you don't actually kill someone with it, and unless it's a Hunchback you're targeting, there is not that much equipment you get to destroy per hit location.

[shintakie]

Solis Obscuri, on 19 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I don't know of any lights that are armed exclusively with machine guns, so I don't foresee a problem. Lights with more lasers may strip armor quicker, but MGs will finish off damaged opponents quicker.

And frankly, it's all a moot point while the SSRM remains supreme in light 'mech combat.

The Spider 5K and the Cicada 3C are almost entirely MG based with a single backup weapon. They're both too light to effectively use any other ballistic weapon system without severely gimpin your speed.

And again, MG's DO NOT FINISH THEM OFF QUICKER! Unless they ninja changed the way the crit system works from how it used to work, a crit does not do extra damage to internals. A crit does extra damage to equipment. No matter how much you crit into your opponent with a MG, you will still only be doin .4 dps per MG to the actual internals.

[Mao of DC]

shintakie, on 20 February 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

The Spider 5K and the Cicada 3C are almost entirely MG based with a single backup weapon. They're both too light to effectively use any other ballistic weapon system without severely gimpin your speed.

And again, MG's DO NOT FINISH THEM OFF QUICKER! Unless they ninja changed the way the crit system works from how it used to work, a crit does not do extra damage to internals. A crit does extra damage to equipment. No matter how much you crit into your opponent with a MG, you will still only be doin .4 dps per MG to the actual internals.

They DID change the way MG crit its more like 1.5 DPS to internals.

The text below comes from the patch notes. http://mwomercs.com/...12190-19022013/

Machine Guns/Flamers/LB10-X

- The Flamer has a 14% increased chance to crit once, an 8% increased chance to crit twice, and a 3% increased chance to crit 3 times.
- When the Flamer crits, it will deal 1.1x the amount of normal damage to an internal item.
- Flamer crit damage is 0.4 x 1.1 = 0.44 per crit. Max crit of 3 times = 1.32.
- The low damage mulitplier is due to the fact that the Flamer already has it's head increase ability.
- The LB10-X has a 14% increased chance to crit once, an 8% increased chance to crit twice, and a 3% increased chance to crit 3 times.
- When the LB10-X crits, it will deal 2.0x the amount of normal damage from 1 'pellet' to an internal item.
- The LB10-X crit damage is 1.0 x 2.0 = 2.0 per crit. Max crit of 3 times = 6.0.
- The Machine Gun has a 14% increased chance to crit once, an 8% increased chance to crit twice, and a 3% increased chance to crit 3 times.
- When the Machine Gun crits, it will deal 12.5x the amount of normal damage per bullet to an internal item.
- The Machine Gun crit damage is 12.5 x 0.04 = 0.5 per crit. Max crit of 3 times = 1.5.
- Due to the rate of fire, the Machine Gun is now a heavy crit seeker and will be VERY effective vs. items on non-armoured locations.