351 replies to this topic

[Bguk]

Onmyoudo, on 20 February 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

That's fair, but an unlucky player might drop short range on a long-range map many times in a row and get annihilated. Similarly said player might then drop long-range on a small map and get cover-flanked to death repeatedly.

This is a hypothetical worst-case, yes, but also not fun at all for the player involved.

Of course that can happen. It happens in any multiplayer game I've played where one gets into a bad streak for whatever reason. I just see it as players then need to play smarter. It's like playing WoT. I take a tier 7 tank into battle. Sometimes I'm the top dog, other times I'm at the bottom of the heap. I play differently depending on where I am sitting. At the top? I can move ahead with less worry than if I were at the bottom.

On a side note, it's been enjoyable discussing this with you. No flames/rants/etc.

[Lyrik]

I hope PGI will now retire the small maps* and replace them with bigger versions. Big enough that 4 Splatcats in a team don't make sense but not so big (or with enough cover) that brawlers like the AC20 Hunch, Splatcats etc are still viable.


*The small maps can still be used for 1v1... if this option will be available in the future

Edited by Lyrik, 20 February 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[Rasako]

good god, this community is extremely ******* hateful, and I played both wow and league of legends for years!

Edited by Rasako, 20 February 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[Kingdok]

KamikazeRat, on 19 February 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

i do see that this will tend to make people shy away from the otherwise horrid boomcat and splatcats, and as we get a better mix of long and short range maps, it will force people to either build a brawler or long range mech, and then suffer if they drop on the wrong map OR heaven forbid make builds more versatile.

but my thing is if this were "real" i'd know where i was dropping, and having a stable of 4 mechs, i'd be able to go "going to caustic valley, ok my HBK-4SP runs a bit hot, ill go with the HPK-4G" or "dropping alpine, lets go with something longer range, that 4G just doesn't have the range and im going to get chewed on before i get a shot off"
(i know silly thought, aiming for realisim in a MMO)

im torn actually, i'd like to know where im going, but i don't run cheap builds, i try to build something that makes sense everywhere, but tend to excel in one area. but i know that alot of people don't care about that and will build whatever makes the number at the end the biggest. and they will build their splatcats/boomcats for the short maps, and gauss/erppc spammers for the long range maps.

the long range maps have more of the feel of TT i think, where your long range weapons are used to pepper and weaken while you close and finish with your limited range punch weapons, or build long range only, get screwed in short range, or short range only and get beaten to death if caught in the open. i think we need more, many more of these maps.

I too would really like to be able to match my mech to the map, but I think this should not be an option. Let's take a stroll down Immersion Lane for a moment: You are a veteran merc pilot. You own ONE thing of real value in the universe - your mech. It was probably handed down through your family, through ages of repairs, tweaks, upgrades, and hard-fought campaigns. You have modified this mech to suit your skills, but you know that at any time you can be deployed anywhere in the galaxy. You do not have 20 or even 4 different mechs to choose from, even if you have prior knowledge of the engagement environment.

I truly hope the large maps and small maps will be used together in the Community Warfare future. If we start fighting for planetary control or something like that, we should be asked to commit a very limited selection of our resources to the campaign. 1 mech with repair/rearm in effect would be my preference, but I am a ********* about these things. You would have to face the likelihood of defending/assaulting an urban area, capturing resource points out in the trackless desert, and rooting out guerrillas in a swampy delta... all in the same mech. That would separate the FPS mice from the mechwarriors like nothing else.

<you wouldn't believe the word that got redacted above.... I swear the English language is in trouble )

Onmyoudo, on 20 February 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

As usual, this thread is full of dismissive assumption.

Regardless of whether slow-moving brawlers should or should not be viable it is an inarguable fact that they have been a staple of the game since Open Beta, if not before. Suddenly having those mechs to be completely ineffective in new content while remaining just as viable in the old content creates a dissonance that is causing upset. This dissonance is noticeable because the new, large map is included in the same rotation as the older, small maps. The fact that the same mech playing the same game mode could drop into each map one after the other and have their build be completely negated in one while being very effective in the other four is odd to say the least.

Edit: In response to the above post, if you knew you were going to be dropping in River City instead of Alpine would you still bring your LRM boat? I would argue that that is a similar issue as having brawlers drop in Alpine, as everybody would like the option to bring a useful build for that terrain type.

Funny - my LRM Stalker does pretty darn well in River City. Of course, it isn't really a 'boat' since it moves 62.9 kph, mounts a paltry 45 tubes, and gets a third of its kills with medium lasers...

Edited by Kingdok, 20 February 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[DisasterTheory]

warner2, on 19 February 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

[size=4]

I think the OP has raised a legitimate concern to be honest.

The thing is, justifying large/small maps being in a rotation where you don't know what map is coming up next by saying that [size=4]this will force everyone to take "balanced" builds, which mix short/medium/long range, is really forcing people to play in a certain way. People don't like that.

Yes ... not only is this lazy of PGI in my opinion but its down right wrong.

This wouldn't be a problem if we could see what map is in the rotation next and be allowed to chose our mech build. Maybe allow a 60 second Mechlab before the match starts (before the startup animation) to give us a choice of preconfigured mechs.

[Helvetica]

Honestly after the initial shock therapy i think it will be a favourite. My first time on the map i didn't see ANY enemies. I just hope it doesn't encourage yet more ecm raven flocks.

This map FEELS like a mech warrior level. It's the first time i've felt - EPIC in the world that is even more huge than my stompy metal person.

Seeing a convoy of mechs in a pass, calling it in then opening up on them is just..... sigh.... yeah good times. Imagine this with airstirkes available! yikes.

Edited by Helvetica, 20 February 2013 - 07:16 AM.

[Eric darkstar Marr]

With everyone swapping to longer range it is making the other maps more epic, Yeah you still get the brawling but it is no longer just a CoD team deathmatch. It now requires a bit of strategy, which is rather nice.

[Ricktor Black]

I think it's one of the best things to happen to the game and I hope there are more long range maps thrown into the mix in the future so people are forced to build well-rounded mechs which have short, medium and long range solutions for every situation. Balanced builds and moving away from purpose-built cheap builds (which I also use - not pointing fingers) will only make this game better. I think Alpine is one of the best changes to the game this year. Now it would just be nice if it came up more than once out of every 50 matches.

[Athurio]

warner2, on 19 February 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

I think the OP has raised a legitimate concern to be honest.

The thing is, justifying large/small maps being in a rotation where you don't know what map is coming up next by saying that this will force everyone to take "balanced" builds, which mix short/medium/long range, is really forcing people to play in a certain way. People don't like that.

Oh, you mean kind of how all short range "arena" maps force you to play a certain way, and people don't like that?

Edit: Cleaned up formatting.

Edited by Krellmane, 20 February 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[Livewyr]

I think they should add long range aspects to the other maps by adding onto them to make them roughly the same size or a bit bigger than alpine. Give them ranged and brawler aspects.

[Arcaist]

Well...what some people simply dont know, or keep on forgetting:

As far as possible, PGI seems to try to stick with the MW canon whereever it is possible. Modifying a mech isn´t that
easily done in the battletech universe, it takes several days of work (an a huge workshop).
Also, mechwarriors generally own ONE mech...so if they are send into combat, they have to cope with whatever they got....
...even if the happen to get into a fight on the wide open with their brawler mech. Thats why the standard mechs have a wide variety of weapons. The "i want to choose the mech with which i will fight on that map" sounds kina like a golf player "hand me the nr 9 iron, pls"... (the right camo for the right area is another thing though...)

Thats the reason I am ok with not beeing able to choose a map. And besides, so even the "unliked" maps won´t be desertet. A big part of the "lostech" battletech universe is about adaption. For my part, I am fine with that.

[Mercules]

Welcome to Battletech and Mechwarrior.

Yes, realistically we should know generally what the planet we are landing on is for climate. Then again Hawaii and Anartica are on the same planet and it is just as likely that when dropping the enemy base you know is in system and likely on that planet is hidden in either place.

Those "bad" stock mech designs are often built that way to give their pilots options. Look at the stock Stalker. It has LRMs, Large Lasers, SRMs, Medium Lasers. Mix of energy and missiles. It is set to drop just about anywhere and contribute to the battle. The stock Atlas is build for a close range brawl, but mounts an LRM 20 to give it some punch at range. It isn't going to sit at range but while it is wading in it can soften up mechs or force a smaller mech to take cover as it advances.

[Bilbo]

My brawling Atlas will continue to run.....erm....walk fast on all the maps. Just have to play it a little different on Alpine.

[Lyrik]

Only the clans should be able to see or choose the next map so that they can adapt they mechs to it. Thats whould be a good advantage for clan players without messing with hardpoints and mechs.

In the lore, most Mechwarriors owned only one mech and had to use it where ever they were stationend. The Clans could adapt with their Omnimech .and had another advantage but in MWO every mech is a Omnimech,

With not knowing what Map is next and with a wide range of small, large, hot, cold etc maps PGI could so implent the advantage of the Omnis.

[Onmyoudo]

Bguk, on 20 February 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Of course that can happen. It happens in any multiplayer game I've played where one gets into a bad streak for whatever reason. I just see it as players then need to play smarter. It's like playing WoT. I take a tier 7 tank into battle. Sometimes I'm the top dog, other times I'm at the bottom of the heap. I play differently depending on where I am sitting. At the top? I can move ahead with less worry than if I were at the bottom.

On a side note, it's been enjoyable discussing this with you. No flames/rants/etc.

Except by "play smarter" in this case it is not always just a matter of being better in the field but also being able to predict the random meta-game of mech loadouts versus the map you're going to get, with a potentially crippling difference in useable weaponry if you guess wrong. This is less of an issue in games with respawn where it is easier for one great player to single-handedly make the difference between victory and defeat, but in a game this team-reliant (especially with the massively variable quality in potential teammates if PUGging) if you're not bringing your A-game and A-mech each and every time you are potentially losing the game for the rest of your team. That one brawler Atlas moving 50kph could easily be a massive hindrance on Alpine where they may be an equally massive benefit on River City, but if instead they had come as an LRM Stalker they might have turned a rout into a slaughter.

And yes, this has been a great discussion so far.

[Ngamok]

Buzzkillin, on 19 February 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

So does that mean we will see a decline in splatcats?

I bet as soon as Dsert is in which is another larger map, we might. But not right now.

[Penance]

Bren McGuire the 2nd, on 19 February 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Did you not read the patch notes? The entire point of that huge map is to allow long range weapons to shine..

I somewhat understand where the OP is coming from, the build isn't the problem, nor is the matchmaker to a degree.

People build mechs based on preferences, what makes them comfortable, and preferred play-style. Telling them an unbalanced build is the issue is just trollish. The build was based on the maps before, which made them 100% viable as they were all smallish...and still are viable, as there are still more small maps than large.

The issue the OP is referring to is the total randomness of the maps. One game may be on river city, then he selects the same mech only to be put on the new alpine map, completely blind. If this game had a server list where you knew the map you were dropping in beforehand, it's highly likely that the OP or anybody running a brawler would not select that mech when dropping into alpine.

I'm not saying being versatile is bad, it isn't, but play-style has a lot to do with it. I played alpine once last night and was fortunate enough to have selected my Cataphract 4x with 2 AC10's, 2 med las, and 1 SRM4, so I wasn't totally useless, but didn't use the SRMs or Med Las all that much, still managed to help the team and get 2 kills (we did win the match). Every person has a build they like, whether it's a short range brawler, or LRM boat, or anything in between, the "problem" is not being able to know on what map you will be dropped on to pick the appropriate mech, so the obvious risk is that you pick a short range brawler and get dropped into alpine.

Edited by Penance, 20 February 2013 - 07:36 AM.

[JadePanther]

finnaly the counter to a splat cat has been found.. long open distances that it really cant avoid!

[Bguk]

Onmyoudo, on 20 February 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

Well stated reply

Penance, on 20 February 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Well stated reply

I can see the point. Short/long range builds will perform, and be more viable, on different maps. I like that aspect. I guess time will tell, like everything.

[Thoren Wolf]

So people complained about maps being too small now they are too big. Really?? Come on people adapt and overcome, it's called evolution and even in the Battletech Univers of Mechwarrior Online, life goes on.