351 replies to this topic

[Broceratops]

you must adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs

also its not even a big deal. its not like you are now getting shot at from 4000 yards

even a gauss only goes up to 1500 before the damage becomes pathetic. you just have to cover about 1000-1500 yards against the heaviest ranged builds before you can be splatting them, regardless of how huge the map is.

Edited by Broceratops, 20 February 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[Noth]

Lee Ving, on 20 February 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

LRMs have a minimum range. Gauss loses effectiveness under 90, and has a 6th of the hitpoints of an AC/20 with less damage. ERLL have extra heat for nominal range increase. Etc.

There's plenty of reason ranged builds are disadvantaged on the majority of maps - because they tend to devolve into brawls.

GR has no minimum range, you are thinking of PPCs. The weapons you mention have a very small window where they are ineffective. the short ranged weapons have a small window where they are effective. The long range weapons are hurt much less by small maps with more cover than short range weapons are hurt by larger maps with less cover.

[ferranis]

Noth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Considering that all long range weapons sans a few have no minimum range and the ones that have a minumum range have relatively short ones (PPC 90 meters but still does damage under that, LRMs 180 but has a huge range and tracks) they can do remarkedly well even in close quarters. I've even recently seen more and more LRMs used at 250 or less meters as at that range they are virtually undodgeable. PPC cheese builds have never suffered on the maps. So it's ok for a short range cheese build to suffer, but a long ranged cheese build shouldn't have to suffer?

ppc cheese builds suffer from.. well powering down after 2 volleys. And they normally cut at the engine which makes them slow, pretty bad for alpine.

Lrm is countert by ecm and cover, cant shoot you when you are behind a building do they not?

[Noth]

Sean von Steinike, on 20 February 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

No reason not to take a BALANCED mech you mean.

No, long ranged, since nearly all long ranged weapons are 100% effective at long range and nearly 100% effective at short range. The exception being the PPC which only loses effectiveness under 90 meters, and LRMs which is under 180 but has always been a weapon that relies on the team.

ferranis, on 20 February 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

ppc cheese builds suffer from.. well powering down after 2 volleys. And they normally cut at the engine which makes them slow, pretty bad for alpine.

Lrm is countert by ecm and cover, cant shoot you when you are behind a building do they not?

My PPC cheese buil goes faster than the standard stalker and can alpha 3 times before shutting down. It can also one shot many thing before they get close. I don't call that suffering.

[Gallowglas]

Clay Pigeon, on 19 February 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

If only we had some sort of lobby system that let us know what map we were going to be on, so we could select one of our available mechs with that information in mind...

While I am certainly one to question why you'd ever drop blind onto a planet with an unknown climate, I think it's safe to say that unpredictable engagement ranges seems like a reasonable variable of warfare. As such, I have less of a problem with having to plan for the latter than having to plan for the former.

Edited by Gallowglas, 20 February 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[ferranis]

Noth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

My PPC cheese buil goes faster than the standard stalker and can alpha 3 times before shutting down. It can also one shot many thing before they get close. I don't call that suffering.

Stalker and fast in the same sentence, i am amazed. So you can shoot 3 volleys, wow.

Edited by ferranis, 20 February 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[Noth]

ferranis, on 20 February 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Stalker and fast in the same sentence, i am amazed. So you can shoot 3 volleys, wow.

When each volley maims or kills a target yeah,it is wow. Also being slow when you have long range on your side on a map where long range is a huge benefit is that much of a problem.

How about my K2 that can fire the ERPPCs all day long. Being a long range build and I give up almost no effectiveness at close range.

Edited by Noth, 20 February 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[Gargoth]

i dont see that as a problem, at last short ranged builds really have to learn real piloting.
and no, real piloting is not running towards enemy with full throttle.
so now?
In order to use short ranged build, you have to give up on weaponry, or armor in order to fit in that larger engine.

i like it!

[Metallis]

Hey I exclusively use light mechs with short range gear and I fair very well on the new map. There is plenty of cover for stealth runs up to other mechs. Just have to use different strategy. Adapt and overcome damnit!!!!

Edited by Metallis, 20 February 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[Ngamok]

Deux, on 20 February 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

They really need allow us the ability to select maps to play so we can load out properly.

Nuketown 24/7

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bhael Fire, on 20 February 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Players really should be able to chose the map they play...OR at the very least be able to choose a mech after the map is revealed.

I mean seriously, nobody should be forced to drop into a long range map using a specialist mech. They should be able to choose which mech they bring to the party.

Very often in the novels, the Mechs remained the same regardless of where they fought. Sure, the option to customize occured on occasion (they were stories after all), but ultimately the pilot overcoming obstacles of their loadouts was often part and parcel of the story line.

MAYBE PGI is trying to subtly influence players to play less specialized builds. Idk. But, again, there's nothing about Alpine that prevents you from playing a short range Mech if you're tactically patient and don't let yourself get pulled from cover over target fixation or simply wanthing things "your way."

[Ngamok]

Philldoe, on 20 February 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Alpine does not ruin th effectiveness of short range builds. There are a lot of places in alpine that a short range team can post at that forces the enemy team to play by their rules. The area to the left of the low-ground base has a neat quick way to the enemy base that provides near constant cover from long range sniping.

This is a map which will force people to pay more attention to the map terrain and use it to their own advantage. Force the enemy to fight on your terms rather than terms everyone expects.

Or get the guys that like to base rush if you are out trying to position for a brawler type fight.

[Ngamok]

Bhael Fire, on 20 February 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Players really should be able to chose the map they play...OR at the very least be able to choose a mech after the map is revealed.

I mean seriously, nobody should be forced to drop into a long range map using a specialist mech. They should be able to choose which mech they bring to the party.

I agree, being able to pick from one of the 4 mechs in your drop ready bay would be the obvious choice to make once the map is chosen / revealed.

[Mechteric]

Ngamok, on 20 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

I agree, being able to pick from one of the 4 mechs in your drop ready bay would be the obvious choice to make once the map is chosen / revealed.

that's actually the first reasonable idea I've heard regarding the subject! Kudos and +1



EDIT: just realized that it would then be almost impossible to balance by weight then if you have wildly different mech weights in your drop ship

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 20 February 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Tal Kharn]

warner2, on 19 February 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

[size=4]

I think the OP has raised a legitimate concern to be honest.

The thing is, justifying large/small maps being in a rotation where you don't know what map is coming up next by saying that [size=4]this will force everyone to take "balanced" builds, which mix short/medium/long range, is really forcing people to play in a certain way. People don't like that.

Not really. A person can still take a boat'ed build or pure short range they will simply have to learn the new map and find a way to use the new terrain. Catapults especially are lucky in this with their jump jets as this allows them to traverse altitude far more easily than say a stalker or atlas. Whilst i would love to play nothing but alpine for awhile, if i could we would have the opposite problem of everyone boating mech builds towards extreme range. So having alpine in the mix but never knowing and then having river city night in the mix but never knowing adds an unknown and personally i love that feeling of being in the mechlab and having to really think about the weapon load out i'm taking out.

People aren't forced to pick one extreme or the other, its just that the environment can go either way and now we are being challenged to reconsider our previous play styles and load choices. Makes you think, not forces you to change and imo that's something that MWO has been in a little short supply of lately. Even ecm was boated by teams but now with the ppc counter, coupled with a long range map slow ecm mechs clustered together have to work hard to close the distance. Just means they have to think a bit more, not doom their mechs to the scrap heap.

[Chunkylad]

[Wintersdark]

Noth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

No, long ranged, since nearly all long ranged weapons are 100% effective at long range and nearly 100% effective at short range. The exception being the PPC which only loses effectiveness under 90 meters, and LRMs which is under 180 but has always been a weapon that relies on the team.

But long range weapons pay enormously for that range in terms of heat generation, tonnage, and crits.

This is why brawler mechs have ridonculous alpha's, and can maintain vastly higher DPS. Close range - and of course you don't have to run directly at the long range mech to do that - and a medium range build will mop the floor with a long range build.

Take it into a close range map (say, River City) and you can bypass long and medium and move directly into close.

You can't control the map, of course, so that's why you need flexibility in your loadout.

Ngamok, on 20 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

I agree, being able to pick from one of the 4 mechs in your drop ready bay would be the obvious choice to make once the map is chosen / revealed.

Nope. Won't happen, defeats the whole purpose.

I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp. Having a mix of maps is a balancing feature, directly against heavily specialist builds.

[Calon Farstar]

Eldagore, on 19 February 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

All I heard was "onoz my splatcats dunz work numore".
Well, SRM boat and dual AC20 will still work in the rest of the maps. You could always just ragequit the new map and drop into a new game.

Or do what I do... 4 SRM6 and 2 LRM10s.....problem solved. or better 3 and 3!

[Noth]

Wintersdark, on 20 February 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

But long range weapons pay enormously for that range in terms of heat generation, tonnage, and crits.

This is why brawler mechs have ridonculous alpha's, and can maintain vastly higher DPS. Close range - and of course you don't have to run directly at the long range mech to do that - and a medium range build will mop the floor with a long range build.

Take it into a close range map (say, River City) and you can bypass long and medium and move directly into close.

You can't control the map, of course, so that's why you need flexibility in your loadout.

I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp. Having a mix of maps is a balancing feature, directly against heavily specialist builds.

This balancing feature is as bad as trying to use the economy to balance the builds. Also even on river city you can excel at long range. I was pulling 1000+ damage and 3+ kill games with PPC on the maps including river city even before they got a heat reduction. It was easily doable. It just takes more effort than it does on Alpine.

Edited by Noth, 20 February 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[Lee Ving]

Noth, on 20 February 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

This balancing feature is as bad as trying to use the economy to balance the builds. Also even on river city you can excel at long range. I was pulling 1000+ damage and 3+ kill games with PPC on the maps including river city even before they got a heat reduction. It was easily doable. It just takes more effort than it does on Alpine.

In X limited situation with Y disadvantaged build if enemy team is dumb enough to do Z you can perform well. What a magical formula for success. That anecdotal evidence totally changes my perspective on this argument, or the fact that long range builds are disadvantaged against skilled players on river city.

Keep complaining, the maps should continue to get larger.

7/10, I responded.