139 replies to this topic

[SpiralRazor]

This thread, much like the other one Ive posted in recently regarding LRMS, illustrates that there is a large number of people playing who dont understand the actual game mechanics of this game, at all.

They also still think they are doing "good", and making real contributions to there team.. Unfortunetly, you will NEVER see these guys in the upper tiers of competitive play simply because those who play competitively make it there business to educated themselves on how things actually work, and why, and actually take an interest in finding such things out.

IE, Elitist Jerks back when WoW was still hard, and Mobafire/Solomid for League of Legends.

[Josef Nader]

What's crippling the MG more than anything right now is that engine criticals don't actually do anything. You need to destroy the section, not the engine inside, so short of touching off ammo MGs will never get kills.

I -can- confirm that they are worth putting on certain builds now, especially high-heat builds with more ballistics slots than they can use. They're great to fire while you're cooling off, as there is zero penalty for doing so and you can (and do) often crit out stuff, especially if they're in banks. You can spare the two tons it takes to pack on twin MGs + enough ammo to last a match.

[SpiralRazor]

Carrioncrows, on 21 February 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Once again because of the weight, it weighs less.

I said it was a inefficient raw dps dump.

You could get 2 machineguns and 2 tons of ammo for 3 tons, no heat and the same DPS as a AC2.

The machine gun is meant to be a low weight option, but it should also be a "FUNCTIONAL" low weight option not just a some worthless crit seeker.

I am looking to make the machinegun functional and wothwhile, i'm not looking to make it a better option than higher weight counterparts. But it could be a better option if you have the hard points and the invest the weight in ammo.

The spider and cicada have 4 ballistic hard points and can churn out 8 dps a sec from those hard points. That's equal to 6 medium lasers. ( 6 meds x 1.25 dps = 7.5 dps)

The ammo you would have to take would be equatable to the heatsinks you would have to take if you used the lasers.

One shouldn't be better than the other but they should be comparable and almost interchangeable.

This way they are.

Medium lasers have more range, but tons of heat, and infinite ammo.
Machine guns have less range but no heat and ammo.

Machine Guns have almost no range....and if you take 4 of them on those mechs, you are super specialized and will die to the first SRM burst that tags you.

Josef Nader, on 21 February 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

What's crippling the MG more than anything right now is that engine criticals don't actually do anything. You need to destroy the section, not the engine inside, so short of touching off ammo MGs will never get kills.

I -can- confirm that they are worth putting on certain builds now, especially high-heat builds with more ballistics slots than they can use. They're great to fire while you're cooling off, as there is zero penalty for doing so and you can (and do) often crit out stuff, especially if they're in banks. You can spare the two tons it takes to pack on twin MGs + enough ammo to last a match.

In what mech would not just want more heatsinks? Or more ammo? Or even a BAP or ECM?

[rgreat]

SpiralRazor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

In what mech would not just want more heatsinks? Or more ammo? Or even a BAP or ECM?

Seem like "heat management" ™ is more fun while doing useless fireworks with MG's.

[SpiralRazor]

Thontor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

I think having a heat neutral LPL with the 4MG to use after exposing internals would be pretty fun

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bd21df91b855f33

yeah, no JJ, but meh..

and true it'll go through that 1 ton of ammo in 50 seconds of continuous fire.. but if you save your mgs for when internals are exposed.. you won't need that much time to strip all the equipment from that component and move onto your next victim

get behind an atlas, strip the rear armor in a few shots.. let the machine guns rock and take out all his big guns.. in seconds...

MGs = 2.5 dps on average vs internals....Nah, im good with anything else bro..because i can still hit things for real damage from 180.

rgreat, on 21 February 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Seem like "heat management" ™ is more fun while doing useless fireworks with MG's.

heh

[Carrioncrows]

SpiralRazor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

Machine Guns have almost no range....and if you take 4 of them on those mechs, you are super specialized and will die to the first SRM burst that tags you.




In what mech would not just want more heatsinks? Or more ammo? Or even a BAP or ECM?

But if the MG's received the buff in damage they would at least be worth a damn and do something.

The Sm laser is in the same boat, but when you haven't got many options it's still a valid one. The MG's should be the same way.

Does this mean an Atlas DDC should pack machienguns instead of a guass rifle? Hell no, but if he is pressed for tonnage the MG's afford him at least a low weight option for those ballistic slots, just like SRM2's, sm lasers afford low weight options for their respective hard points.

The point i was illustrating is that with the damage buff they would be functional and in high numbers with the Spider and cicada they could do comparable damage to 6 medium lasers and that's just the ballistic slots you still have the energy slot to fill in with whatever you like, large, large pulse, ppc for the cicada or whatever else.

At the end of the day they should be a viable variant. As for smart that's a whole different box of cookies and i don't throw that word around a lot when I see some of the builds in Pug matches.

What one guy sucks with another guy excels at. Personally I hate guass, can't use them, don't like them. Not a fan. So i use other weapons and can still be effective because the weapons I am good at are "Functional and competitive You bring MG's up to snuff and i'm sure you'll see your fair share of Anne Oakly's out there.

[rgreat]

Thontor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

I think having a heat neutral LPL with the 4MG to use after exposing internals would be pretty fun

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bd21df91b855f33

yeah, no JJ, but meh..

and true it'll go through that 1 ton of ammo in 50 seconds of continuous fire.. but if you save your mgs for when internals are exposed.. you won't need that much time to strip all the equipment from that component and move onto your next victim

get behind an atlas, strip the rear armor in a few shots.. let the machine guns rock and take out all his big guns.. in seconds... (the Machine guns would destroy items a lot faster than the LPL... considering four of them destroys two items per second)

Until MG's are fixed lets just say that Spider-5K is very ineffective mech.

[SpiralRazor]

Thontor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

but four machine guns would do 20.2 DPS against items.. think about it.. two items per second... gone.. one of them is ammo or gauss? boom

Uh no...because MGs do not crit 100% of the time.....at most you will do 10dps, and thats spread out amongst those items in that section..

Still bad.

Its bad dude...bad....can you not understand the math? Unlike in LoL...theres no way to itemize 100% crit rate.

Worst troll ever in this this game would be a CAT-4x with X4 MGs and 2 flamers.


Id have to make sure you were blacklisted.

[rgreat]

Thontor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

maybe you need another look

thats 5.05 DPS per machine gun against items

That will make Spider-5K a champion at Special Olympics.

On Jenner if i see armorless back of a mech and i can just sit there and fire away he will die in a few seconds.
Even an Atlas will die in few salvos.

Much more effective then just a few killed weapons at one location.

P.S. Hint on ammo/gauss explosions: I always use CASE.

Edited by rgreat, 21 February 2013 - 06:29 PM.

[Signal27]

Thontor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

that Spider will have stripped every item from that Atlas's torso before the Jenner can fire his second shot...

I'm not too proud or ashamed to admit that I was driving an Atlas, got my back armor stripped off, and then a Spider snuck up behind me and tore me a new @$$hole with a machine gun(s). I didn't die but a lot of my weapons and heat sinks went red.

Granted, It's just one case of anecdotal evidence, but I'm starting to become a believer.

Edited by Signal27, 21 February 2013 - 06:48 PM.

[rgreat]

Thontor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

that Spider will have stripped every item from that Atlas's torso before the Jenner can fire his second shot...

Atlas will still have 7 other intact locations.

And what next?
Jenner will kill Atlas. Spider will run or die.

Person above me just confirmed that.

[rgreat]

Thontor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

I'm saying all three of the Atlas's torso components rear armor is gone.. that atlas is gonna only have it's arm weapons left.. if it's an RS it might still put up a decent fight.. but any other Atlas is gimped..

and yes.. once the job is done.. torso items stripped.. the Spider moves along and bites it's next victim

That a very slim chance that you see such atlases.

Usually at the point Atlas have ALL rear armor gone - he is dead already.

[rgreat]

I wonder why i still arguing?

Play with you gimped spider as you like.

I will just continue to kill people doing 600+ damage on Jenners and 900+ on Atlases.

Getting 4+ kills.

You will NEVER do that on MG spider.

[rgreat]

Continue to 'reduce'. I'll just kill.

Killed mech can't do damage.

Good luck and bye.

[Xinaoen]

I'd say that Machine Guns are really only useful under very specific circumstances. First: you need several ballistic hardpoints that you have nothing better to do with. Second: you need about two spare tons of free weight that wouldn't be better invested elsewhere. Third: you need an armor-penetrating main armament, so that you can consistently expose an enemy's criticals in the first place.

That's sort of a "perfect storm" of criteria that's unlikely to come up; on the rare occasion that it does, however, having Machine Guns is probably better than not having them. For instance: I've been running my Ilya with a Gauss and two Large Pulse Lasers. That left the ballistic hardpoints in my arms empty. By downgrading my engine (to a mere 325XL), I was able to pop Machine Guns into the arms. I'm not counting on them for their damage potential; however, they'll occasionally set off ammo explosions - often instantly killing a target who otherwise would've been returning fire on me for at least as long as it took for my primary weapons to cooldown.

I'm still not sold on them; it's kind of hard to tell how much they're actually accomplishing (it's not like lights flash or a siren goes off when you destroy enemy criticals), but they have given me a few pretty spectacular instagibs against non-CASEing 'Mechs.

[shintakie]

Thontor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

As I already mentioned.. that spider can destroy components faster than your jenner can kill

what's more helpful to your team.. one dead enemy mech, or two mechs with 80% of their firepower gone

You have to think of this in the larger picture than that though. Bringin a 4 MG spider/Cicada to the match absolutely can help you strip enemy equipment, sure. However to do that your team will have 1 mech that is quite literally useless except as a distraction for the entirety of the fight that its not tryin to strip internals.

Against equally skilled teams (which elo is meant to do), the team that brings the Spider to the fight will be outgunned by the opponents up to the point that your team can start fully strippin armor from the other team.

edit

Carrioncrows, on 21 February 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Once again because of the weight, it weighs less.

I said it was a inefficient raw dps dump.

You could get 2 machineguns and 2 tons of ammo for 3 tons, no heat and the same DPS as a AC2.

The machine gun is meant to be a low weight option, but it should also be a "FUNCTIONAL" low weight option not just a some worthless crit seeker.

I am looking to make the machinegun functional and wothwhile, i'm not looking to make it a better option than higher weight counterparts. But it could be a better option if you have the hard points and the invest the weight in ammo.

The spider and cicada have 4 ballistic hard points and can churn out 8 dps a sec from those hard points. That's equal to 6 medium lasers. ( 6 meds x 1.25 dps = 7.5 dps)

The ammo you would have to take would be equatable to the heatsinks you would have to take if you used the lasers.

One shouldn't be better than the other but they should be comparable and almost interchangeable.

This way they are.

Medium lasers have more range, but tons of heat, and infinite ammo.
Machine guns have less range but no heat and ammo.

How exactly is a weapon that runs out of ammo after 20 seconds of continuous fire remotely comparable to a laser, especially a laser that has over twice the effective range and no bullet spread? Add on 3 more and a ton of ammo lasts all of 5 seconds. 5 seconds of bullet spread and 90m of effective range.

That totally sounds comparable to a medium laser doesnt it? Oh...wait. No it doesn't. Even if you want to compare it to that, the amount of crit spaces you'd need to devote to ammo would be horrendous, not to mention the weight. You'd quite literally be turnin your mech into a gigantic walkin bomb just waitin for a lucky crit to send the mech sky high.

Edited by shintakie, 21 February 2013 - 08:37 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Thontor, on 21 February 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

kills and damage aren't everything

Stripping items helps the team win, by reducing the amount of damage the enemy can dish out.

Kills and damage are everything bro..sorry to burst your bubble.

If you arent playing competitively, you should rethink on commenting. MGs should be a competitive choice.


Your mech would have no role on our team. We dont need you to strip items but be useless for most of the start of the fighting.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 22 February 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[EvilCow]

The whole crit-seeker concept is flawed, it is always better just shot the exposed section with anything else and destroy it instantly together with the whole mech if it contains an XL.

I don't stay there doing pew pew hoping to destroy an heat sink.

[SpiralRazor]

Thontor, on 22 February 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

You are forgetting the heat neutral LPL

Sure, only 1/3 the alpha strike of a 6ML Jenner, but that Jenner can only fire so much before heat becomes an issue. And the spider can fire his LPL with impunity.

Contributing a higher sustained damage over time.

I'd hardly call that "useless at the start of the fighting"

The jenner can run or jump off to get out of the way to cool down. Six MLAS is 30 damage.....One of those to a head location and a graze from anyone else is GG.. 30 damage to someones back can also go internal on small/mediums.


Winner = Jenner.

[GrabbleRus]

Bhael Fire, on 19 February 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

One of my best mechs sports 2 machine guns and an LB 10-X...and consistently out-performs many other mechs on the field

I would love to see you every game in the enemy team.